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Thread: Concerns with unbalanced Harbinger abilities

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    Rift Disciple Jegodin's Avatar
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    Exclamation Concerns with unbalanced Harbinger abilities

    I've been doing some research into melee recently, especially on the PvP side of things, and have found some things that are quite concerning and unbalanced.


    1) Essence of Wind - Mitigation (Problem: Cooldown [45s] isn't balanced with all other classes)

    I don't think there is a problem with Harbinger having this ability, by itself, but also no other class has this short of a CD on such a strong mitigation (not in a DPS class).

    Examples from other classes:
    • Side Steps - Cooldown: 2 minutes
    • Windwalk - Cooldown: 1 minutes
    • Judicial Privilege - Cooldown: 1 minutes
    • Touch of Life - Cooldown: 2 minutes (Note: This is from Paladin, and I know it's not from a DPS soul, but warriors don't really have strong mitigation in any DPS soul. I have seen touch of life used for PvP plenty though.)

    2) Blade Rush - Melee Charge/CC (Problem: Crowd Control Effect isn't balanced with all other classes)

    I also have no problem with this ability, by itself, but no other melee class has a charge that can also stun for any length of time. Not to mention I don't think there is a class that can consistently stun every 15s and have that same ability still do damage to the enemy, and honestly I feel that's way too many stuns for a DPS class, or at the least the other DPS classes aren't balanced to have this many stuns.

    Examples from other classes:

    This makes for some very unbalanced encounters, especially in PvP. It looks like to balance this the 4s stun on Blade Rush should be a 1.5s root like every melee class in the game. They could keep their stun, but it should require its own GCD. I also feel like Essence of Wind should have a longer cool down considering Harbs can keep up Blazing Light with no problems. A minute would seem balanced if the charge/stun becomes a charge/root, or 2 minutes and only 25% dodge if they can stun every 15 seconds without wasting a GCD to non-damage ability.

    Please balance our classes <3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jegodin View Post
    1) Essence of Wind - Mitigation (Problem: Cooldown [45s] isn't balanced with all other classes)

    I don't think there is a problem with Harbinger having this ability, by itself, but also no other class has this short of a CD on such a strong mitigation (not in a DPS class).

    I also feel like Essence of Wind should have a longer cool down considering Harbs can keep up Blazing Light with no problems. A minute would seem balanced if the charge/stun becomes a charge/root, or 2 minutes and only 25% dodge if they can stun every 15 seconds without wasting a GCD to non-damage ability.

    Please balance our classes <3
    When you can dodge spells I will stop laughing at how stupid this is.
    The only problem with Essence of Wind is that you can use it while carrying pvp objectives.
    Last edited by Phs; 09-28-2015 at 11:40 AM.

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    Rift Disciple Jegodin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phs View Post
    When you can dodge spells I will stop laughing at how stupid this is.
    The only problem with Essence of Wind is that you can use it while carrying pvp objectives.

    /
    Your whole blade rush complaining comes down to: Harbinger has a single cc break outside Break Free. It has nowhere as much burst as the other souls. And a really obvious big cd notification.
    After the 3.4 (hopefully?) changes to 61 harb. Then we can all look at to see if the crit, rending, and EA changes help it in pvp. Even then I don't see how a 4s stun that can't be used in melee is too strong/better than the other's. Especially when most the ones you listed all have movement-cc clears... Reduce it to 2s if you want to really cry about two stuns in a melee spec.

    Then stop crying about nerfs and ask for Cleric Shaman buffs.
    The problem with the stun, compared to every other melee class in the game, is that harb doesn't have to use a dedicated GCD just to stun, and it's part of their charge ability, so it's a gap closer, damaging ability, and a 4 second stun all rolled into one ability. You're right, you have to be 3 meters away for stun to work but I can't see that doing anything but helping you stay out of the line of fire until you're ready to stun.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Deeew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jegodin View Post
    You're right, you have to be 3 meters away for stun to work but I can't see that doing anything but helping you stay out of the line of fire until you're ready to stun.
    How about you CC the harb?

    The charge is not a CC breaker unlike the other charges you linked. Harb has one CC break other than break free, and it is on a 30 sec cooldown.
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    Rift Disciple Jegodin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deeew View Post
    How about you CC the harb?

    The charge is not a CC breaker unlike the other charges you linked. Harb has one CC break other than break free, and it is on a 30 sec cooldown.
    I didn't realize harb had two break frees. What's their CC break other than the Ascended Break Free? I agree with you that their charge doesn't break CC, but the charges I linked require two things to break free: 1) you have to be facing the enemy, 2) you have to be at least 3 meters away. Getting the break free from your charges rarely works, and to be honest you hardly EVER need to break free and charge at the same time. Either you need a break free to get out of danger, or you need to charge in to do damage... Using break frees to chase down a kill is a possibility, but probably a bad idea, especially in pvp.

    Also I don't think that tool tip is descriptive enough, it's not a CC break, it break movement impairing abilities: roots, snares, slows. It does not break: debilitates, stuns, or fears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jegodin View Post
    I didn't realize harb had two break frees. What's their CC break other than the Ascended Break Free? I agree with you that their charge doesn't break CC, but the charges I linked require two things to break free: 1) you have to be facing the enemy, 2) you have to be at least 3 meters away. Getting the break free from your charges rarely works, and to be honest you hardly EVER need to break free and charge at the same time. Either you need a break free to get out of danger, or you need to charge in to do damage... Using break frees to chase down a kill is a possibility, but probably a bad idea, especially in pvp.
    "The problem with the movement cc break, compared to harbinger, is that <class> doesn't have to use a dedicated GCD just to cc break, and it's part of their charge ability, so it's a gap closer, damaging ability, and a movement cc break all rolled into one ability. You're right, you have to be 3 meters away for break to work but I can't see that doing anything"

    Dunno if it's worth anything but Blade Rush is bugged and has a high chance to not deal its tiny damage if you're not in combat when you cast it initially. and Planar Retreat, Harbs cc break teleports you backwards on a 30s cd. 'Fun'
    Last edited by Phs; 09-28-2015 at 12:38 PM.

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    Rift Disciple Jegodin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deeew View Post
    How about you CC the harb?

    The charge is not a CC breaker unlike the other charges you linked. Harb has one CC break other than break free, and it is on a 30 sec cooldown.
    I don't think that tool tip is descriptive enough, it's not a CC break, it breaks movement impairing abilities: roots, snares, slows. It does not break: debilitates, stuns, or fears.
    Last edited by Jegodin; 09-28-2015 at 01:36 PM.

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    Rift Disciple Jegodin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phs View Post
    "The problem with the movement cc break, compared to harbinger, is that <class> doesn't have to use a dedicated GCD just to cc break, and it's part of their charge ability, so it's a gap closer, damaging ability, and a movement cc break all rolled into one ability. You're right, you have to be 3 meters away for break to work but I can't see that doing anything"
    I see what you were trying to do, but harb does have Phase Step which serves the same general purpose as Thread the Trees, and that is to close the gap between you and your target. The fact that the CD is 30 seconds on for Phase Step and they have 30 seconds to use a single target spell that closes the gap makes the combination of Planar Retreat, Phase Step, and Ascended Break Free much more superior than any melee class in the game.

    Again, I think it's just a small oversight, the 4s stun in Blade Rush is just a little too much CC and should be a 1.5s root like the rest of the melee classes. They wouldn't loose any ability to close the gap between them and their target, and they wouldn't loose DPS.
    Last edited by Jegodin; 09-28-2015 at 02:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deeew View Post
    How about you CC the harb?

    The charge is not a CC breaker unlike the other charges you linked. Harb has one CC break other than break free, and it is on a 30 sec cooldown.
    i guess we're not including ride the wind here? harb has three breaks, gets an extra 5% mitigation from sc, and gets 25% mitigation for 15s every 60s from empyrean ascension, and has an extra 5s stun on top of the charge, and gets 8% passive movement speed.

    when the next harb rework goes through and it's actually viable in pvp due to having access to solid burst cooldowns, the difference between harb and other melee souls is going to become even more obvious.

    jegodin is onto something here. let's compare to shaman

    Shaman:
    -5% passive mitigation
    -glacial shield/shield of oak adds up to about a 5% absorb shield, mostly useless
    -50% move speed, 15s duration, on a 1 minute cd
    -no stun
    -no port
    -no extra break besides PA break
    -no passive movement speed
    -no extra mitigation otherwise
    -100% reliance on punishing strike as a level 65 mastery, so no access to soul stream for self healing
    -best dps spec is forced into an inquisitor mastery, losing out on movement speed mastery which is optimal for pvp
    -second best dps spec provides no extra utility
    -11cab sub spec for dark passage is roughly -8% damage/-4% crit compared to best two specs, loses disconnect dps
    -solid disconnect dps but no grasping/phantom blades mechanic, nothing to really complain about here though

    Harb:
    -4s stun on a 15s cd attached to a charge
    -5s stun on a 30s cd
    -extra break/escape/leap back on a 30s cd
    -third break from ride the wind
    -5% passive mitigation from sc (-5% crit loss but +4% damage gain from "best" spec, may be negligible with upcoming buffs/forced crit mechanics)
    -8% passive move speed
    -50% move speed for 15s, 45s cd
    -50% move speed for 10s, 20s cd, also from ride the wind, adding up to around a possible 80% uptime on +50% move speed--seriously?
    -passively applied absorb (no idea how effective this is though)
    -planar shield (again no idea how useful this is)
    -25% mitigation from EA for 15s, on a 1 minute cd.
    -phantom blades, 50% uptime on melee abilities at range
    -phase step in it's current iteration is great for melee and likely makes up for most disconnect issues not solved by phantom blades or increased movement speed
    -blademark. extremely useful in pvp in my opinion, despite what some might say. i can't even imagine the carnage i could cause as shaman if i had blademark
    -blade rush charge buff added in patch 2.5, same as shaman, which will be much more useful with upcoming changes
    -possible access to phantom stream as a 65 mastery (?), i'm unsure about this though.

    there's already a huge disparity, it just isn't obvious yet because no one really plays harb due to it's lack of burst damage. i don't have any issues with harb having all of the tools that it has, but i do have issues with shaman not having anything close to the utility that harb has, or basically no utility at all.
    Last edited by ecru; 09-28-2015 at 02:38 PM.
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    "Harb is the worst spec ever, PvP and PvE" - Mages


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    Quick! We gotta nerf harbinger before it has even hit live!

    best dps spec is forced into an inquisitor mastery, losing out on movement speed mastery which is optimal for pvp - What is the speciality of having to use this inquisitor mastery? Is it essential to burst with this mastery in PVP?

    I'm just gonna point out, all you have done with the lists is essentially name both talents from respective trees, and then also list harb cd's. If you really insist on picking up on our cd's, please remember, mages have a thing called charge If you want to use '-planar shield (again no idea how useful this is)' you can enjoy a greatly reduced rune shield. Not to mention ride the wind costs 30 charge a pretty essential part of our build.
    Blademark, if a shaman had it you would be correct in saying you would wreak havoc with it. But why don't you realize that we don't have your burst, and suffering a 10% debuff to damage on our target would give our once against lacking burst dps compared to shaman another slap. Phantom blades, once again we don't really want this. Pick this apart as you will, hopefully devs see your comment and give us some kind of burst. I would also wager you whereas you picked up on our cd's. You failed to pick up on the shamans ones. Not to mention if you compare your frozen wrath ticks to our blazing light ones, you can see why maybe we get a better cd for ranged.
    Last edited by JasonT; 09-30-2015 at 11:31 AM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Orangu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deeew View Post
    How about you CC the harb?

    The charge is not a CC breaker unlike the other charges you linked. Harb has one CC break other than break free, and it is on a 30 sec cooldown.
    Please don't get everyone confused with "breaking cc" vs "removes movement impairing effects". The only thing it does is remove slows and roots, I believe ecru touched on ride the wind and what it does.
    You are technically correct about blade rush being gimped compared to other leaps, but the reason why is because they have access to something much better.

    @ ecru some of the things you list shaman as missing can be picked up in offsouls, but I agree, you will have to gimp your dps to do so when a harb does not. I'd make a solid argument to Red Hawk to rework some of the lower tier cleric trees because things such as 5% more damage become so negligible in comparison to other options, it ruins class synergy. Buffing these lower tier trees would also increase your overall damage and might help make cleric dps less like... well cleric dps (outside of shaman maybe).
    Last edited by Orangu; 09-30-2015 at 12:16 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post

    Harb:
    -4s stun on a 15s cd attached to a charge
    Worthless because all that stun time would be used in ramping up again and the charge doesn't trigger anything relevant for Harb.
    -5s stun on a 30s cd
    Most melees have something similar anyways. Only discrepancy is that hard has Range on it.
    -extra break/escape/leap back on a 30s cd
    -third break from ride the wind
    If used, Harb gets charge starved period. There's a reason it's not a primary rleiance cause you trade your damage for survivability outright.
    -5% passive mitigation from sc (-5% crit loss but +4% damage gain from "best" spec, may be negligible with upcoming buffs/forced crit mechanics)
    The passive mit Harb gets counter the fact that cloth takes 10% more damage from Physical while only having the same Res as everyone else.

    -8% passive move speed
    Would gladly trade this for anything else. Also most melees tend to have speed boosts anyways.
    -50% move speed for 15s, 45s cd
    That is tied to a defensive skill, so have to pick mobility or defense.
    -50% move speed for 10s, 20s cd, also from ride the wind, adding up to around a possible 80% uptime on +50% move speed--seriously?
    Same as Essence of the Wind, except you have to pick mobility, defense, or damage since it'll crush your damage when used.

    -passively applied absorb (no idea how effective this is though)
    Is **** since it gets hit by the Heal restrictions in PVP. 1% shields. Yay.
    -planar shield (again no idea how useful this is)
    Is **** since it gets stacks removed via DoTs and Procs AND also consumes huge amounts of charge, immediately killing your damage by 15%.

    -25% mitigation from EA for 15s, on a 1 minute cd.
    Tied to a burst CD, so again pick damage or defense. Can't have both.
    -phantom blades, 50% uptime on melee abilities at range
    Mages have been asking for this to be removed for a while. Not gonna get disagreement here.
    -phase step in it's current iteration is great for melee and likely makes up for most disconnect issues not solved by phantom blades or increased movement speed
    Not disagreeing.
    -blademark. extremely useful in pvp in my opinion, despite what some might say. i can't even imagine the carnage i could cause as shaman if i had blademark
    Nope. Many limitations. It's doesn't function as a "fire and forget spell" like most DoTs. There's lots of little issues with it that cripple your output due to circumstances outside your control.

    -blade rush charge buff added in patch 2.5, same as shaman, which will be much more useful with upcoming changes
    Are you talking about the same **** every melee charge has? Why is this a unique point in Harb's favor when every melee has this?

    -possible access to phantom stream as a 65 mastery (?), i'm unsure about this though.
    Absolutely worthless unless you really want to 1v1 THAT much. Only case it's useful.
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    I would argue that clerics need another viable dps option. Since there is no longer a dedicated healing class as it was initially designed to be in vanilla it has left clerics with a plethora of healing roles and not many dps options (at least viable ones).
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    Effectively a nerf harb thread.

    Why not mention the ACTUAL broken abilities, like coda of wrath + virtuoso, shadow of dread etc.

    Rather than just bringing up some random abilities AND NOT EVEN CONSIDERING POINT INVESTMENT!

    This is why rift balance sucks, because sadly the devs listen to you bads.
    -=[ Virulent - 65 - P100 | Harlakk - 65 - P100 | Ascaroth - 62 - P95 | Brahman - 65 - P92 ]=-
    -=[ VirulentX - 65 - P100 | HarlakkX - 65 - P92 | AscarothX - 60 - P10 | BrahmanX - 0 - P0 ]=-

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