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Thread: Concerns with unbalanced Harbinger abilities

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by McChaffe View Post
    BS. The burst buff to Harbinger had absolutely nothing to do with PvP content. It had to do with people getting fed up over hailstorm being required fluff for Harbinger to pull ahead on PvE DPS. That's why the 40% damage increase on EA and the storm shroud changes are coming.
    61 harb still uses* hailstorm.

    *requires for highest dps.
    Last edited by Phs; 10-01-2015 at 08:43 AM.

  2. #32
    Champion of Telara McChaffe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phs View Post
    61 harb still uses hailstorm.
    It "can" use hailstorm. I'm not gonna be using it since DPS with just 61 harb will be fine by itself.
    Last edited by McChaffe; 10-01-2015 at 08:43 AM.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by McChaffe View Post
    BS. The burst buff to Harbinger had absolutely nothing to do with PvP content. It had to do with people getting fed up over hailstorm being required fluff for Harbinger to pull ahead on PvE DPS. That's why the 40% damage increase on EA and the storm shroud changes are coming.
    OK, you're directly contradicting the reasons Red Hawk himself posted for changing some of the stuff on the PTS... I guess that's something you'd have to take up with him then.

    Also, that stuff about hailstorm doesn't make any logical sense. If hailstorm was the problem, the obvious thing to do is change abilities so that hailstorm is no longer in the optimal parses for harbinger. The fact that it is still optimal, whether or not you personally use it, shows that it is not the reasoning behind making such changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by McChaffe View Post
    With Primalist's AoE soul pulling 1.3 mil on five targets with two buttons and it's melee pulling some really high numbers, damn right I'm gonna prioritize Primalist over Harbinger.
    Typhoon has only been on PTS for a few days. Dervish used to be pulling what, ~190k, but now it's more sensible. Stuff on PTS is far from final with Primalist, heck, look at the masteries there are(n't) available. If something like that goes live then obviously it's something to rant about but all the evidence so far plus historical events suggest that it won't go live as-is.

    Quote Originally Posted by McChaffe View Post
    Yes, but it's only they're only unbalanced in a duel..
    Could you please explain your reasoning of which specific abilities are overpowered only in duels?
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    Could you please explain your reasoning of which specific abilities are overpowered only in duels?
    Essence of the Wind, Conditioned Response and the two Stuns, Planar Retreat and Phantom Blades.

    These abilities are only noticeably over powered in duels because there isn't a large enough DPS output to deal with Harbinger's kiting/healing abilities. This is significantly less noticeable in PvP WFs due to the presence of ranged specs and greater DPS output. Harbigner is still melee and still has the current melee disadvantage regardless of how much utility it possesses.

    As for Red Hawk's statement, I'm fairly sure the Storm Shroud and EA buffs were more to address how 54 Harbinger builds were pulling more DPS than 61, because Harbinger doesn't need PvP buffs as is.The only really QoL change for PvP is the change to Rending Slash.
    Last edited by McChaffe; 10-01-2015 at 09:17 AM.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by McChaffe View Post
    As for Red Hawk's statement, I'm fairly sure the Storm Shroud and EA buffs were more to address how 54 Harbinger builds were pulling more DPS than 61, because Harbinger doesn't need PvP buffs as is.The only really QoL change for PvP is the change to Rending Slash.
    Turning up the EA damage boost certainly was, but I'd question why a force-crit on storm shroud except to make a burst more reliable. Anyways, it did the job of strangling the 54 harb/8 chloro thingy.

    Quote Originally Posted by McChaffe View Post
    Essence of the Wind, Conditioned Response and the two Stuns, Planar Retreat and Phantom Blades.

    These abilities are only noticeably over powered in duels because there isn't a large enough DPS output to deal with Harbinger's kiting/healing abilities. This is significantly less noticeable in PvP due to the presence of ranged specs. Harbigner is still melee and still has the current melee disadvantage regardless of how much utility it possesses.
    I'd agree that those are certainly rather powerful in duels (though how they compare to peoples' favourite dps/tank hybrids I have no idea, I don't really duel).

    I don't actually understand how dodge chances work and stack in PvP, which probably doesn't help my understanding of essence of wind. Does it stack with blazing light's 10% or the harbinger tree's 10%? And what is the real dodge percentage? Having not played that many souls whose abilities can be dodged in PvP I really don't know how these work. The fact you can use it for the movement speed buff when carrying objectives is probably an oversight and should be fixed though.

    As for the rest not being overpowered due to the melee-ness of harb, that one is going to be rather open to debate as there arguably isn't any melee soul currently that is really balanced. It doesn't change the fact that harb has way more toys than other melee souls do.

    In the least melee friendly maps, harb might be average because you melt too fast. It's still in better shape than some of the other melee souls in the same situation. The question really is whether or not harbinger is actually the problem here - are those ranged souls more problematic? If a melee soul were able to shine in these situations (IE, packing both the survivability and enough other stuff to the table to be worth using) it would also completely and utterly wipe the floor with everything on smaller scale encounters.

    Harb seems to be getting dangerously close to being overpowered on smaller scale encounters thanks to the huge amount of toys it has to accompany its new mighty burst. Other souls are viable in these situations and harb flatly outclasses them there, yet it can't stand up to meleeing when being melted by range.

    Really the question comes down to solving the problems melee has in PvP in general, I suppose. If we were to exclude larger scale PvP because no pure dps melee spec can avoid being melted in seconds, then harbinger appears overpowered.
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  6. #36
    Champion of Telara McChaffe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    I'd agree that those are certainly rather powerful in duels (though how they compare to peoples' favourite dps/tank hybrids I have no idea, I don't really duel).

    I don't actually understand how dodge chances work and stack in PvP, which probably doesn't help my understanding of essence of wind. Does it stack with blazing light's 10% or the harbinger tree's 10%? And what is the real dodge percentage? Having not played that many souls whose abilities can be dodged in PvP I really don't know how these work. The fact you can use it for the movement speed buff when carrying objectives is probably an oversight and should be fixed though.

    As for the rest not being overpowered due to the melee-ness of harb, that one is going to be rather open to debate as there arguably isn't any melee soul currently that is really balanced. It doesn't change the fact that harb has way more toys than other melee souls do.

    In the least melee friendly maps, harb might be average because you melt too fast. It's still in better shape than some of the other melee souls in the same situation. The question really is whether or not harbinger is actually the problem here - are those ranged souls more problematic? If a melee soul were able to shine in these situations (IE, packing both the survivability and enough other stuff to the table to be worth using) it would also completely and utterly wipe the floor with everything on smaller scale encounters.

    Harb seems to be getting dangerously close to being overpowered on smaller scale encounters thanks to the huge amount of toys it has to accompany its new mighty burst. Other souls are viable in these situations and harb flatly outclasses them there, yet it can't stand up to meleeing when being melted by range.

    Really the question comes down to solving the problems melee has in PvP in general, I suppose. If we were to exclude larger scale PvP because no pure dps melee spec can avoid being melted in seconds, then harbinger appears overpowered.
    Sorry, not trying to disagree with your points or the overall thread here. I get that Harbinger has a lot of utility which makes it really strong, but I just feel that this thread approaching the subject from the wrong angle.

    Harbinger currently stands out against other melee souls because of survivability and utility, which I honestly don't think Red Hawk really took into account how strong this would be against other melee souls. I believe that Harbinger is only this strong because all of these changes were meant to get it to fit into the current Meta which is dominated by ranged souls, thus making Harbinger outrageously strong in terms of dealing with other melee.

    Overall, I believe the current strength of ranged souls is to blame for Harbinger's strong performance. Harbinger has to be viable against them and it's utility fills that role. Hopefully other melee souls will receive similar attention and be brought up to level with Harbinger's PvP performance. Riftblade might actually end up being the next big melee soul depending on what direction Vladd goes with it.
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  7. #37
    Rift Chaser Fopod's Avatar
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    Thick of Battle - 15% (Ranged)
    Down and Dirty - 4%
    Disorient - 2%
    Difficult Target - 3%
    Void - 3%
    Accord of Resilience (Guard) - ~3-4%
    Also... Plate armor

    Nerf Warlord?

    A lot of misinformation about Harbinger in here.
    For the record,
    1. Planar Retreat backward teleport is one of the hardest ability to use properly and is usually going to fail due to terrain.
    2. Harbinger is currently the lowest mitigation melee spec in the game (LOLWUT?) if we do not count Stormcaller. If we do consider Stormcaller (People tend to forget that Stormcaller =/= Harbinger), only Shaman has lower mitigation which isn't even too far behind because of cloth versus chain armor. (Yes it does matter.) That's right. Harbinger, lowest mitigation melee soul in the game by extremely far. It got a grand total of 0% damage reduction while using cloth armor and rely on worthless shields and heals in PvP to mitigate nothing. The change on the PTS will add a much needed 5% to the soul.
    3. The current iteration of Phase Step is near useless (Thx Phantom Blade), please don't even mention it. It is more detrimental then useful in most case since if you have to disengage, you cannot attack until you remove the buff or for it to run out.... And don't tell me that you can do "sick tricks" with it by teleporting from target to target. The chances for anything like that to happen are close to nil.
    4. Planar Shield is bad in this meta, period.
    5. Heals and Shields are reduced by PvP reduction. The buff to conditioned response was nice but it still is a weak DPS heal in a Ranged DPS meta.
    6. Dodge is useless, Essence of Wind only use is for the movespeed, nothing more.
    7. Ride the Wind charge cost hurts a lot and may just end up being unusable when you actually need it (Which happens often).
    8. Empyrean Ascension mitigation is 20%, not 25%.
    9. We all know Phantom Blades is cancer.
    10. Blademark is worthless in PvP.
    11. The changes on the PTS give Harbinger a very hard to land "Snipe" capability. Unlike Shaman and Paragon, you are most likely not going to be able to land it and even if you do land it, after the burst, there is nothing left while both Shaman and Paragon have their burst lasting for several extra seconds after the initial burst. So don't get your panties in a bunch about Harbinger burst on the PTS. It won't be that impressive in a PvP situation and every mage will still be playing Pyro and Dominator.
    12. Hailstorm is still a thing. /sigh
    13. Lucent Slash to refresh Blazing Light is still a thing. /sigh
    14. Woooh single target stuns on a low CD! Should we talk about 8 seconds CD pull at 0 point Warlord?

    This isn't a 1v1 game. Nobody care that Harbinger is the bestest in duels.
    Except for you. Yeah, you. You care too much about it, you the guy behind the screen.


    Edit: Almost forgot...
    Using Phantom Stream over Arcane Manipulation or Ethereal Blast is the same level of loss as a Shaman not using Punishing Strike.
    This is even more true if the PTS changes happen where Harbinger will absolutely rely on Ethereal Blast for its damage.
    Last edited by Fopod; 10-01-2015 at 11:00 AM.

  8. #38
    RIFT Guide Writer Deeew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post


    It far surpasses the capabilities of any other currently available souls in a PvP context because it can just do so many things. Just make a comparison of harb vs shaman: about the only things not in harb's favor are the 2 GCD ramp-up time and the fact that TW can be interrupted. Do it the other way around and you get all the other points raised earlier.
    So I am going to use this quote as an example, but it goes beyond just this one individual.

    How are you guys saying that harb is so strong, yet, you guys have the sigs which state harb died.

    I am trying to understand the logic. Is harb dead or is harb op/strong?

    Can anyone shed some light on this for me?
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  9. #39
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    Mage is so OP pls nerf.

    Lol.

    K.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deeew View Post
    So I am going to use this quote as an example, but it goes beyond just this one individual.

    How are you guys saying that harb is so strong, yet, you guys have the sigs which state harb died.

    I am trying to understand the logic. Is harb dead or is harb op/strong?

    Can anyone shed some light on this for me?
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    sidenote: vk/para confirmed better than harb in pvp
    Last edited by Orangu; 10-02-2015 at 02:00 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    i guess we're not including ride the wind here? harb has three breaks, gets an extra 5% mitigation from sc, and gets 25% mitigation for 15s every 60s from empyrean ascension, and has an extra 5s stun on top of the charge, and gets 8% passive movement speed.

    when the next harb rework goes through and it's actually viable in pvp due to having access to solid burst cooldowns, the difference between harb and other melee souls is going to become even more obvious.

    jegodin is onto something here. let's compare to shaman

    Shaman:
    -5% passive mitigation
    -glacial shield/shield of oak adds up to about a 5% absorb shield, mostly useless
    -50% move speed, 15s duration, on a 1 minute cd
    -no stun
    -no port
    -no extra break besides PA break
    -no passive movement speed
    -no extra mitigation otherwise
    -100% reliance on punishing strike as a level 65 mastery, so no access to soul stream for self healing
    -best dps spec is forced into an inquisitor mastery, losing out on movement speed mastery which is optimal for pvp
    -second best dps spec provides no extra utility
    -11cab sub spec for dark passage is roughly -8% damage/-4% crit compared to best two specs, loses disconnect dps
    -solid disconnect dps but no grasping/phantom blades mechanic, nothing to really complain about here though

    Harb:
    -4s stun on a 15s cd attached to a charge
    -5s stun on a 30s cd
    -extra break/escape/leap back on a 30s cd
    -third break from ride the wind
    -5% passive mitigation from sc (-5% crit loss but +4% damage gain from "best" spec, may be negligible with upcoming buffs/forced crit mechanics)
    -8% passive move speed
    -50% move speed for 15s, 45s cd
    -50% move speed for 10s, 20s cd, also from ride the wind, adding up to around a possible 80% uptime on +50% move speed--seriously?
    -passively applied absorb (no idea how effective this is though)
    -planar shield (again no idea how useful this is)
    -25% mitigation from EA for 15s, on a 1 minute cd.
    -phantom blades, 50% uptime on melee abilities at range
    -phase step in it's current iteration is great for melee and likely makes up for most disconnect issues not solved by phantom blades or increased movement speed
    -blademark. extremely useful in pvp in my opinion, despite what some might say. i can't even imagine the carnage i could cause as shaman if i had blademark
    -blade rush charge buff added in patch 2.5, same as shaman, which will be much more useful with upcoming changes
    -possible access to phantom stream as a 65 mastery (?), i'm unsure about this though.

    there's already a huge disparity, it just isn't obvious yet because no one really plays harb due to it's lack of burst damage. i don't have any issues with harb having all of the tools that it has, but i do have issues with shaman not having anything close to the utility that harb has, or basically no utility at all.
    Shaman has a stun that doubles as a damage increase

    But Shaman in itself needs some help PvP. That's not grounds to get rid of Harbingers CC. If we make harb have what Shaman does, it'll already be behind dmg wise and now won't be able to do much to ranged enemies. Shaman needs CC increase, not harbinger decrease.

    I'm well aware of Harbingers abilities since it's what I main spec next to lock in pvp. But we should be trying to get other melee classes on board with what harb can do, not nerf it. We already have enough of a tough time in matches trying to fight, and as awesome as harb can be, it still can't do much in a whitefall, or kartharan match with zergs. It's used, like sin, or some other melees, for matches where people are more spread out.

    And goodness forbid we get rid of the CC, I don't know how I'd manage trying to catch some of these ranged classes who ALSO have their speed buffs, and CC's and roots, ect to stop me from getting them.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by McChaffe View Post
    Sorry, not trying to disagree with your points or the overall thread here. I get that Harbinger has a lot of utility which makes it really strong, but I just feel that this thread approaching the subject from the wrong angle.

    Harbinger currently stands out against other melee souls because of survivability and utility, which I honestly don't think Red Hawk really took into account how strong this would be against other melee souls. I believe that Harbinger is only this strong because all of these changes were meant to get it to fit into the current Meta which is dominated by ranged souls, thus making Harbinger outrageously strong in terms of dealing with other melee.

    Overall, I believe the current strength of ranged souls is to blame for Harbinger's strong performance. Harbinger has to be viable against them and it's utility fills that role. Hopefully other melee souls will receive similar attention and be brought up to level with Harbinger's PvP performance. Riftblade might actually end up being the next big melee soul depending on what direction Vladd goes with it.

    There are melee hybrids that can perform as well. I see mostly comparisons to one of the worst CC melee classes out which is Shaman. (People done forgot about Druid).

    But essentially, ^this.....your statement is exactly how I feel. Stop trying to get rid of the ability to fight ranged souls effectively, and instead make the lacking in other melee classes be increased to match.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    Adding on from the stuff raised on the previous page:
    • Harb takes 2 GCDs to ramp up (rending slash and piercing beam)
    • Harb's burst is potentially a larger damage spike: if you first get a proc then do TW->Lightning Strike->Eldritch blast all hits are made within 0.5s. I'm not sure how hard TW hits but the other two are probably going to be around ~20k crits each. Killing players with ~63k health or whatever in a single burst might be quite possible for people in full downbolster gear.
    • Hailstorm can be used to block objective actions.
    • Those who don't feel guilty about living storm trolling can exploit that too.
    • Can use icicle as a snare but it'll eat into charge.
    Honestly I think ride the wind in general probably could do with being tweaked. There are so many nice things low down in the SC tree that the only DPS specs that probably wouldn't want to go there are warlock (because of necromancer's DoT stuff), elementalist and necromancer for the pet thingies. Or the low end SC tree needs changing more than just hailstorm, but that's going to wreck PvE numbers as well.

    Getting dark passage from cab is a big DPS blow for anything but a cabalist. Not picking up ride the wind is a big DPS blow for pyro and harb. And those souls already have one extra break free each. Sure, ride the wind requires charge but with three break frees I so rarely have to actually touch the main PA one - switching to a cleric made me forget what it was like to have to actually sit through CC sometimes.

    If shaman is viable at the moment, harb is going to be too strong. I just haven't decided whether shaman is really all that viable for people who don't have such good gear yet. Both souls have parse DPS based around two abilities (sanction heretic and hailstorm) that aren't all that worthwhile in PvP. The major issue remaning with harb in PvP is the interruptible tempest winds, but harb just seems has too much other stuff going for it at the moment... if you compare with shaman.

    I would question the validity of that comparison seeing as melee players are so uncommon in the majority of warfronts. There isn't really a melee soul you can point at and say "this is fairly balanced". If there was one, I'd like to think that you would see a little less ranged people and more melee people.
    Essentially, Shaman neds a boost as Ecru has mentioned. Melee in general, as has been known for some time, needs a boost. Harbinger is still only usable in some scenarios and isn't suggested in big group fights. But that's fine considering most souls can't be used for every situation.

    They should just work on adding more damage mitigation, or more CC to the other melee souls in general. But getting rid of Harbs abilities would render it back to below average. It's damage isn't all that great alone, and it's little passives are what keep it from being blown up as it is since it's a cloth melee relying on passive mitigation, lol.

  14. #44
    Soulwalker Dharien's Avatar
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    harbinger may be OP due to the mitigation of planar shield and dodge/runspeed buff^^

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    Default Thread Necromancy at its finest.

    Gotta love thread Necromancy, raising a two year old thread from the dead....... Good work!!

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