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Thread: Concerns with unbalanced Harbinger abilities

  1. #16
    RIFT Guide Writer Orangu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by V1rul3n7 View Post
    Effectively a nerf harb thread.

    Why not mention the ACTUAL broken abilities, like coda of wrath + virtuoso, shadow of dread etc.

    Rather than just bringing up some random abilities AND NOT EVEN CONSIDERING POINT INVESTMENT!

    This is why rift balance sucks, because sadly the devs listen to you bads.
    coda of wrath + virtuoso is a 100% necessary evil unfortunately. Without that no bard spec would ever do relevant damage compared to other support souls.


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  2. #17
    Ascendant ecru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by V1rul3n7 View Post
    Effectively a nerf harb thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    i don't have any issues with harb having all of the tools that it has, but i do have issues with shaman not having anything close to the utility that harb has, or basically no utility at all.
    thought i made this pretty clear

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangu View Post

    @ ecru some of the things you list shaman as missing can be picked up in offsouls, but I agree, you will have to gimp your dps to do so when a harb does not. I'd make a solid argument to Red Hawk to rework some of the lower tier cleric trees because things such as 5% more damage become so negligible in comparison to other options, it ruins class synergy. Buffing these lower tier trees would also increase your overall damage and might help make cleric dps less like... well cleric dps (outside of shaman maybe).
    only the extra break from cab, with which the dps loss is pretty substantial. there's no mitigation, run speed, or any other utility aside from the purge at 12pt inq, but with 12pt inq you lose the combined effort buff/debuff that also works with punishing strike. not taking druid at all as a sub-soul too is a huge disadvantage in both pve and pvp because you lose fervent strike, which is your best disconnect ability at <20m aside from punishing strike. justicar, unlike vk and arb, also doesn't give you anything useful so cleric tank hybrids that do anything besides soak up damage and heal a bit tend to be garbage.
    Last edited by ecru; 09-30-2015 at 06:23 PM.
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  3. #18
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    Adding on from the stuff raised on the previous page:
    • Harb takes 2 GCDs to ramp up (rending slash and piercing beam)
    • Harb's burst is potentially a larger damage spike: if you first get a proc then do TW->Lightning Strike->Eldritch blast all hits are made within 0.5s. I'm not sure how hard TW hits but the other two are probably going to be around ~20k crits each. Killing players with ~63k health or whatever in a single burst might be quite possible for people in full downbolster gear.
    • Hailstorm can be used to block objective actions.
    • Those who don't feel guilty about living storm trolling can exploit that too.
    • Can use icicle as a snare but it'll eat into charge.
    Honestly I think ride the wind in general probably could do with being tweaked. There are so many nice things low down in the SC tree that the only DPS specs that probably wouldn't want to go there are warlock (because of necromancer's DoT stuff), elementalist and necromancer for the pet thingies. Or the low end SC tree needs changing more than just hailstorm, but that's going to wreck PvE numbers as well.

    Getting dark passage from cab is a big DPS blow for anything but a cabalist. Not picking up ride the wind is a big DPS blow for pyro and harb. And those souls already have one extra break free each. Sure, ride the wind requires charge but with three break frees I so rarely have to actually touch the main PA one - switching to a cleric made me forget what it was like to have to actually sit through CC sometimes.

    If shaman is viable at the moment, harb is going to be too strong. I just haven't decided whether shaman is really all that viable for people who don't have such good gear yet. Both souls have parse DPS based around two abilities (sanction heretic and hailstorm) that aren't all that worthwhile in PvP. The major issue remaning with harb in PvP is the interruptible tempest winds, but harb just seems has too much other stuff going for it at the moment... if you compare with shaman.

    I would question the validity of that comparison seeing as melee players are so uncommon in the majority of warfronts. There isn't really a melee soul you can point at and say "this is fairly balanced". If there was one, I'd like to think that you would see a little less ranged people and more melee people.
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  4. #19
    Rift Disciple Jegodin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evantide View Post
    -5s stun on a 30s cd
    Most melees have something similar anyways. Only discrepancy is that hard has Range on it.
    No. You're absolutely wrong. No melee in the game has a stun attached to their charge damaging ability. It being ranged IS NOT the only exception with harb. That's severely broken. All melee have 1.5s roots on their charges. Harb has what you're saying most melee specs have (a separate stun with it's own dedicated GCD: Disabling Shock) but there are certainly no other melee classes with an extra stun attached to their charge ability. If shaman or paragon had a stun that also closed the gap and did some damage every 15s you'd be making similar posts to mine about those souls.
    Last edited by Jegodin; 10-01-2015 at 07:17 AM.

  5. #20
    Rift Disciple Jegodin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    i don't have any issues with harb having all of the tools that it has, but i do have issues with shaman not having anything close to the utility that harb has, or basically no utility at all..
    It's entertaining watching people who abuse this imbalance come to this thread and have them defend their over powered mitigation and excessive stuns. If shaman or any warrior melee dps soul had a stun every 15s we'd be seeing very similar threads of people asking for them to balance those souls.
    Last edited by Jegodin; 10-01-2015 at 07:14 AM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jegodin View Post
    It's entertaining watching people abuse this imbalance come to this thread and have them defend their over powered mitigation and excessive stuns. If shaman or any warrior melee dps soul had a stun every 15s we'd be seeing very similar threads of people asking for them to balance those souls.
    til: Ecru is a mage.

  7. #22
    Rift Disciple Jegodin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phs View Post
    til: Ecru is a mage.
    Not sure what you mean, but I was agreeing with him.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jegodin View Post
    #nerfharbinger
    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    no #buffshaman to be as good as harbinger
    Quote Originally Posted by Jegodin View Post
    yes #nerfharbinger i agree with you
    You what, mate.
    Last edited by Phs; 10-01-2015 at 07:42 AM.

  9. #24
    Telaran Anarial's Avatar
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    Complain, complain, complain....We -finally- get a soul worth it, and people *****. Why don't we talk about reaver? Marksman? Inquisitor? How about the fact that every class besides mage has a 100% mobile ranged spec? "You have two stuns" Okay? And? Assassin can stun you 3 times in rapid succession, not to mention bleed you to death and pop a burst CD that makes their stun all of a sudden do a ton of damage. Besides stuns there's an aoe confusion ability, and their dart drains power/energy/mana and snares you and does damage. Marksman can now fire off a 5-combo point ability for 3 and then instantly hit with a 5 one again? Or reaver, one button fires off a ton of dots, then viral stream takes out a huge chunk of your health. Getting hit? No problem. Stealth away and teleport then shield yourself, removing all DoTs with that teleport. Same with an assassin. Stealth away and pop a CD to heal yourself and wait it out. Cleric is dying as inquisitor? Judicial privilege and harsh discipline yourself, and if needed bop yourself with a soul stream. Channel 5 times, being able to move with three of those channels, while firing off instant bolts and dots.

    So harb is broken how exactly?
    Last edited by Anarial; 10-01-2015 at 07:42 AM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarial View Post
    Complain, complain, complain....We -finally- get a soul worth it, and people *****. Why don't we talk about reaver? Marksman? Inquisitor?
    Because this isn't the right section to be complaining about them. And it is easier to nerf a few overpowered things than increase all the game's underpowered things to match them.

    As an aside, you also seem to have a few misconceptions about inquisitor's mobility but this isn't the time or place to talk about ranged cleric specs in a thread about harbinger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarial View Post
    So harb is broken how exactly?
    It far surpasses the capabilities of any other currently available souls in a PvP context because it can just do so many things. Just make a comparison of harb vs shaman: about the only things not in harb's favor are the 2 GCD ramp-up time and the fact that TW can be interrupted. Do it the other way around and you get all the other points raised earlier.
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  11. #26
    Champion of Telara McChaffe's Avatar
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    Even though Harbinger has a lot going for it, how often do you see one in a warfront?

    Answer: Not many. It's a clunky spec that's great for 1v1s, but generally bad in larger group fights because going back to the root of things, it's a melee spec in a ranged world.

    Even with this utility, there are still direct counters in the game for Harbinger. A good NB/Inquis and a few Reaver combos (or 61 Para) can take them down fairly easy from my experience.
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  12. #27
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    On PTS it has a burst capability that is easily as strong as shaman's, though you do need to use tempest winds (interruptible channel).

    On live it's a bit pathetic in PvP except in duelling hybrids and other specs with a crazy amount of survivability.
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  13. #28
    Champion of Telara McChaffe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    On PTS it has a burst capability that is easily as strong as shaman's, though you do need to use tempest winds (interruptible channel).

    On live it's a bit pathetic in PvP except in duelling hybrids and other specs with a crazy amount of survivability.
    "On PTS"

    This isn't live yet and that burst is only being added due to the failure to make 61 Harbinger viable for PvE since the 54 variant proved better. All of these balancing issues are due to devs attempting to balance this soul for another aspect of the game because it's subpar there, which makes it OP in certain PvP aspects.

    This aside, Harbinger isn't what you should be worrying about in the near future, worry about Primalist which is going to be the new "reaver" class.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by McChaffe View Post
    "On PTS"

    This isn't live yet and that burst is only being added due to the failure to make 61 Harbinger viable for PvE since the 54 variant proved better. All of these balancing issues are due to devs attempting to balance this soul for another aspect of the game because it's subpar there, which makes it OP in certain PvP aspects.
    Red Hawk disagrees with you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Hawk View Post
    Why these changes, you ask? We're happy Harbinger's viable in PvE, but want to address several QoL issues as well as improve its PvP viability.
    Quote Originally Posted by McChaffe View Post
    This aside, Harbinger isn't what you should be worrying about in the near future, worry about Primalist which is going to be the new "reaver" class.
    We don't know how effective it's going to be yet as I don't think all that much is finalised there. Not trying to balance existing stuff because of something that may not actually happen seems a bit silly. In any case, completely ignoring some problems just because there are worse ones doesn't seem right. I'm all for prioritising but avoiding it completely seems a bit much to me.
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  15. #30
    Champion of Telara McChaffe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    Red Hawk disagrees with you:
    BS. The burst buff to Harbinger had absolutely nothing to do with PvP content. It had to do with people getting fed up over hailstorm being required fluff for Harbinger to pull ahead on PvE DPS. That's why the 40% damage increase on EA and the storm shroud changes are coming.


    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    We don't know how effective it's going to be yet as I don't think all that much is finalised there. Not trying to balance existing stuff because of something that may not actually happen seems a bit silly. In any case, completely ignoring some problems just because there are worse ones doesn't seem right. I'm all for prioritising but avoiding it completely seems a bit much to me.
    With Primalist's AoE soul pulling 1.3 mil on five targets with two buttons and it's melee pulling some really high numbers, damn right I'm gonna prioritize Primalist over Harbinger.

    That having been said, are some of Harbigners abilities unbalanced? Yes, but it's only they're only unbalanced in a duel, which the Devs don't care for anymore since it's world PvP.
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