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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Mage Update: 3.2

  1. #1036
    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    How about no. EA is cool, especially the animations. It's not like it lasts 30s now, it lasts 15. If it's that much of an issue for you then just make a cancelbuff macro. You don't have to ruin the fun for the rest of us.
    Except that what he's asking for is legit.

    In PvP, a big steel angel is basically a "HEY I'M BURSTING YOU SO USE YOUR CC OR DEFENSIVE CD PLEASE" sign.
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  2. #1037
    RIFT Guide Writer Hababa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    Except that what he's asking for is legit.

    In PvP, a big steel angel is basically a "HEY I'M BURSTING YOU SO USE YOUR CC OR DEFENSIVE CD PLEASE" sign.
    That is a good thing. Pvp should be based on reacting to your opponents moves.

    I also am a bit baffled how people are still not happy. Red Hawk has given you guys the majority of changes you were asking for and also said that he will be changing Phase Step, yet there are still more things some of you have found to complain about.

    In my eyes, the new Harb has some nice quality of life fixes and plays decently. I would argue however that there needs to be a little added complexity as there isn't really anything to mix-max. Once you have the basics, I don't feel that there is anything to really "master".
    Last edited by Hababa; 06-22-2015 at 05:39 PM.
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  3. #1038
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hababa View Post
    I also am a bit baffled how people are still not happy. Red Hawk has given you guys the majority of changes you were asking for and also said that he will be changing Phase Step, yet there are still more things some of you have found to complain about.
    Because he's doing half measures still. It's the same **** as usual. "mages can do this but/if/when".

    And until the Phase step changes actually show up and are shown to be not a horrid skill like the current PTS iteration, there will be people that harp on him endlessly.

    That and he's still not announcing the PTS changes and waiting on us to find it ourselves.
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  4. #1039
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninalways View Post
    Vorpal Slash
    Instant
    Cooldown: 8 seconds
    Deals up to x to y Life damage. Deals an additional 100% of damage done over 8s.
    @Red Hawk: Potential problem with this. Warmaster Illrath on Izkinra uses this. If they're pulling form the same pool as Harb's Vorpal Slash, we're all screwed.

    Also can we get rid of Lightning Riposte and Vengeful shock already for something marginally useful?
    Last edited by evantide; 06-22-2015 at 06:42 PM.
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  5. #1040
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    Quote Originally Posted by evantide View Post
    @Red Hawk: Potential problem with this. Warmaster Illrath on Izkinra uses this. If they're pulling form the same pool as Harb's Vorpal Slash, we're all screwed.
    As in it become instant and one shot tanks? That sounds like fun. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Hababa View Post
    That is a good thing. Pvp should be based on reacting to your opponents moves.
    PvP should be based on reacting to your opponents moves by having knowledge of what their moves are.

    Not by screaming at them: "Hey look at me! You better counter this!"
    if they don't know how to fight against you, it's their fault, not yours. There should never be anything as flashy as that in PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hababa View Post
    I also am a bit baffled how people are still not happy. Red Hawk has given you guys the majority of changes you were asking for and also said that he will be changing Phase Step, yet there are still more things some of you have found to complain about.

    In my eyes, the new Harb has some nice quality of life fixes and plays decently. I would argue however that there needs to be a little added complexity as there isn't really anything to mix-max. Once you have the basics, I don't feel that there is anything to really "master".
    We are not happy because we care.

    We care for mage to be brought to a competitive level.
    We don't want Red Hawk to come and ask us: Is this half-empty or half-full?
    We want the glass to be full. We aren't asking for the entire bottle either.

    It's pointless to be happy about changes if it means that the spec is still behind or still has the same problems we have been facing for... forever now.

    I am happy that Red Hawk is giving us attention. But I don't want him to screw it up. That's why I stay skeptical and question or point out the flaws rather than giving him a high five telling him that everything is fine when it's not.
    Last edited by Snap; 06-22-2015 at 07:05 PM.
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  6. #1041
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    Asking for EA to have the angel removed is like asking for Dom's Split Personality or Necro's Lich form animations removed.
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  7. #1042
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    Theres so much negativity in here its amazing.
    Maybe im alone on this but so far i really like the changes. Phase step obviously still stands out as something that has to go/change but otherwise were getting a better Harb that retains most of what makes the spec good.
    1sec gcd on everything might be reasonable compared to other classes but do we really need it? Im happy we have a 1sec gcd Blazing Light right now. And its still a melee spec, being ranged without Phantom Blades up should be punished.
    Lets be real here, regardless of 1/1.5sec gcd spamming thundershock isnt gonna make things better. Also consider that the talent is 31/32 points in. Both Inqui/Shaman reductions are very high in the trees, 58/61 points iirc.
    Giving us that 31/32 points in might lead to some ridiculous hybrids. (I havent really thought this through but its certainly possible and will have to be considered with every future change to every mage soul)
    Imo 1sec gcd on all harb abilities is fine.

    And removing the Steel Angel would be a crime, its just what makes Harb Harb in peoples eyes. Its iconic.
    Yes its suboptimal for pvp but so is Flame Volley, so is Unstable Transformation, so are the Inqui channels. Theyre not 15sec long but the principle is the same.
    Also im not sure about you guys but i do use a kalert set for pvp which tells me what my opponents are doing. But yeah, its not as obvious as a Steel Angel of Doom.


    Wrt balancing i did a couple of parses:

    73.8k in dim
    96.3k in foundry

    Im not sure if this is perfect, Pyro parsed around 88k in the foundry. Acuta did some warrior parses for me and Reaver was slightly higher and Paragon was at 97k iirc (although the dummies do have the armor debuff which isnt really used in most compositions).
    But since there probably will be a change to Phase Step and there was talk of adding an execute to Reapers Blade the numbers will have to be revisited anyways.
    Last edited by paschl; 06-22-2015 at 07:57 PM.
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  8. #1043
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hababa View Post
    That is a good thing. Pvp should be based on reacting to your opponents moves.

    I also am a bit baffled how people are still not happy. Red Hawk has given you guys the majority of changes you were asking for and also said that he will be changing Phase Step, yet there are still more things some of you have found to complain about.

    In my eyes, the new Harb has some nice quality of life fixes and plays decently. I would argue however that there needs to be a little added complexity as there isn't really anything to mix-max. Once you have the basics, I don't feel that there is anything to really "master".
    people who been messin mage forums dont even harb on dummies,they managed to nerf the best dps build out there cause was too hard for them,now they re gonna screw harb and then will ask to have elem or necro to get buffed,when it 'll be done then they 'll start back askin for harb changes cause they're pro harbs...in forums
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  9. #1044
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hababa View Post
    In my eyes, the new Harb has some nice quality of life fixes and plays decently. I would argue however that there needs to be a little added complexity as there isn't really anything to mix-max. Once you have the basics, I don't feel that there is anything to really "master".
    Oh and im not sure i agree here.
    I mean when you compare it to the old Harb there havent been much changes with regards to complexity. Right now its probably closer to what Harb always was which is making sure you have your good spells on cooldown as little as possible. And it still takes planing your procs and aligning stuff up to do so. Sure its not on scharbs level but theres still quite a bit to min-max in my eyes.
    Especially with the changed EA.
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  10. #1045
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abhor748 View Post
    Asking for EA to have the angel removed is like asking for Dom's Split Personality or Necro's Lich form animations removed.
    No one is asking for the angel to be removed.
    We are asking for the choice between showing it or not for PvP purpose.

    Anyways, what's important right now is for Phase Step to get fixed and for every abilities to be 1 sec global for harbinger, not just half of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by paschl View Post
    1sec gcd on everything might be reasonable compared to other classes but do we really need it?
    Yes we need it.

    Having not 2, but 3 different Global CD on our abilities is extremely bad.
    0.5s, 1s and 1.5s.
    You may not feel it because you probably don't play Harbinger in PvP, but right now, having all of your utility on a 1.5s GCD is painful... Very painful.

    There is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't get 1s global on everything for Harbinger.
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  11. #1046
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    Yes we need it.

    Having not 2, but 3 different Global CD on our abilities is extremely bad.
    0.5s, 1s and 1.5s.
    You may not feel it because you probably don't play Harbinger in PvP, but right now, having all of your utility on a 1.5s GCD is painful... Very painful.

    There is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't get 1s global on everything for Harbinger.
    I did argue for having all Harbinger abilities on 1sec gcd, i just dont think we really need a Harb talent so low in the tree that makes ALL mage abilites 1sec gcd.
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  12. #1047
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    I'd actually argue that new harb is getting real close to SC/harb levels in terms of difficulty now since you've swapped from juggling Storm Locus + raging to an ***-ton of ICD skills because they break Eldritch.

    Then again, can't really say much since final Phase Step isn't in yet so who knows where DPS will end up.

    Quote Originally Posted by paschl View Post
    I did argue for having all Harbinger abilities on 1sec gcd, i just dont think we really need a Harb talent so low in the tree that makes ALL mage abilites 1sec gcd.
    What hybrids would really benefit from this though? There's very few where it isn't just shaving 10s off a 5 minute fight due to DoT reapplication.

    Like let's take SC harb. If played perfectly, you're saving 4s of GCDs over 5 minutes. Chloro-harb edges up and saves about 20s worth of GCDs over 5 minutes. Harbchon saves 3s over 5 minutes, and that's assuming you don't refresh auras with a proc.

    There really ain't much it's gonna do at a 33 point talent besides make Harb specs less of a PITA. The DPS boost for SC/harb is, assuming all 4 attacks used during those GCDs crits, you'll get 600 DPS.
    Last edited by evantide; 06-22-2015 at 08:56 PM.
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  13. #1048
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    Quote Originally Posted by paschl View Post
    I did argue for having all Harbinger abilities on 1sec gcd, i just dont think we really need a Harb talent so low in the tree that makes ALL mage abilites 1sec gcd.
    Which is why I said the 1s GCD could be higher in the tree or in the roots.
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  14. #1049
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    I think spamming Thunder Shock would be punishment enough for being out of melee. Really it just gives you something to do while you're not in melee range but either don't have Phantom Blades up or don't want to use it because the disconnect is short. Sure you can do this without a 1s GCD, but having it on a 1s GCD keeps the gameplay flow consistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    Except that what he's asking for is legit.

    In PvP, a big steel angel is basically a "HEY I'M BURSTING YOU SO USE YOUR CC OR DEFENSIVE CD PLEASE" sign.
    Oh please. Unstable Transformation signals to people "HEY STOP ATTACKING ME I'M IN GOD MODE" but people don't do that 90% of the time anyway. Harbinger has a billion things about it that are awesome for PvP -- including EA being unpurgeable, by the way, for the very reason you're citing. Having a distinctive animation is a weakness that a lot of specs have and it's never broken a single one.

    This was never really a problem when Harb was a top-tier PvP spec in the past, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hababa View Post
    In my eyes, the new Harb has some nice quality of life fixes and plays decently. I would argue however that there needs to be a little added complexity as there isn't really anything to mix-max. Once you have the basics, I don't feel that there is anything to really "master".
    This is why I suggested having an interaction between the Vorpal Slash DOT and Storm's Fury. Right now you can basically just macro your primary Slashing attacks all together, but if you were incentivised to use Storm's Fury while the Vorpal DOT is on a target, you would want to avoid macro'ing them. This also ties the abilities together on a very tight timer. If you use Storm's Fury right after a Vorpal Slash then you can get a second Storm's Fury in before the DOT runs out, whereas if you miss that second one, or make a poor choice and delay the first Storm's Fury, you'd be losing DPS.

  15. #1050
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    Quote Originally Posted by evantide View Post
    @Red Hawk: Potential problem with this. Warmaster Illrath on Izkinra uses this. If they're pulling form the same pool as Harb's Vorpal Slash, we're all screwed.

    Also can we get rid of Lightning Riposte and Vengeful shock already for something marginally useful?
    but I like Lightning Riposte in questing/invasions. Is hilarious. Pull everything > Essence of the Wind > Laugh as everything kills itself.
    Last edited by Phs; 06-23-2015 at 04:19 AM.

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