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Thread: Warlock in PvP: mechanics question and stat priority?

  1. #1
    Shadowlander Faeruna's Avatar
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    Default Warlock in PvP: mechanics question and stat priority?

    I play a warlock in PvP cos i find the soul fun in this context. I have two areas i wanted to clarify.

    My first question is wrt which stats to stack. I have decided to stack equipment pieces with modest INT, high END and spell power, completely ignoring crit chance and crit power.
    My reasoning for this is as follows:

    1. Most of my damage comes from DOT's
    2. In PvP I can expect my DOT's to be cleansed very often.
    3. Since i will not apply full damage with a DOT if it is cleansed any crits are essentially a 'waste'
    4. I would far prefer to hit harder on average with stacked spell power than have occaisional crits get cleansed.
    Therefore i have chosen to ignore crit chance and crit power.

    Is this reasoning sound? Is spell power the way to go for pvp?

    My second area in need of clarification has to do with refreshing dots on a target using "persist" or salvage/pall. I know that crits are calculated prior to DOT application but what I don't know is whether 'persist' and/or "salvage/pall" reapply the dots with a fresh crit check or whether the dots simply get their duration refreshed holding all their original dmg values.

    I'm hoping someone can clarify these two questions for me. Ty in advance.
    Last edited by Faeruna; 04-20-2015 at 04:21 AM.

  2. #2
    Ascendant V1rul3n7's Avatar
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    Wise choices.

    <3 - Big daddy lock
    -=[ Virulent - 65 - P100 | Harlakk - 65 - P100 | Ascaroth - 62 - P95 | Brahman - 65 - P92 ]=-
    -=[ VirulentX - 70 - P100 | Harlakk - 70 - P92 | Ascaroth - 60 - P10 | BrahmanX - 1 - P0 ]=-
    | VIRALIST: 65 |

  3. #3
    Shadowlander Faeruna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by V1rul3n7 View Post
    Wise choices.

    <3 - Big daddy lock
    Aha, looks like im going to stck with my guns here. Ty big daddy lock.

  4. #4
    Plane Touched detpack's Avatar
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    Default Lockness

    First off, you get huge props for playin Lock in WFs. It's why I wanted to Mage when the game first came out.

    There was a time when a Pyrolock was the sharpest tack on the battlefield and I still have macros that I can't delete with "Medusa" written on them for sentimental reasons.

    Warlock is getting a rework according to Red Hawk... I wish this was coming out before Harb changes. (which I will not comment on here) So you are in luck!!!

    I don't think you are wasting your time with CP because it has a chance to augment on every spell you cast and on every tick of your dots. Your SP will eventually become the largest stat because you have the 220 CP essences from all your WF caches. Also, go to the guide section and check out the excellent excel sheet which will help you make quality gear choices. Practice double dotting if you are not already... it will transform the way you play your Lock.

    All the best in PVP!!! They won't run far when their filled with magic.
    Last edited by detpack; 04-22-2015 at 06:53 PM.

  5. #5
    Shadowlander Faeruna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detpack View Post
    First off, you get huge props for playin Lock in WFs. It's why I wanted to Mage when the game first came out.

    There was a time when a Pyrolock was the sharpest tack on the battlefield and I still have macros that I can't delete with "Medusa" written on them for sentimental reasons.

    Warlock is getting a rework according to Red Hawk... I wish this was coming out before Harb changes. (which I will not comment on here) So you are in luck!!!

    I don't think you are wasting your time with CP because it has a chance to augment on every spell you cast and on every tick of your dots. Your SP will eventually become the largest stat because you have the 220 CP essences from all your WF caches. Also, go to the guide section and check out the excellent excel sheet which will help you make quality gear choices. Practice double dotting if you are not already... it will transform the way you play your Lock.

    All the best in PVP!!! They won't run far when their filled with magic.
    Thanks Detpack, i will go and play with that spreadsheet. Tbh i love Warlock in WF, things go fine if my positioning is perfect and i time my defensives well. When i manage that i have super fun

    I was actually thinking about a counter argument to mine....something along the lines of "more dmg is more dmg" if radiate death rolls for crit on every dot application that it spreads and persist/salvage/pall reroll for crit then CP might be insanely good.

    My feeling is that the tree emphasises spell power and it's effect on DOTS (death based ones including Necromancer's necrosis) whether i go harb or stormlock or w/e, spell power (and max/base health) is going to be key. Either way, lock is by far my favourite soul to roll in WF with Pyro obv being a good second option for when i want something different.

  6. #6
    Rift Chaser Fopod's Avatar
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    A little clarification on how DoTs works.

    Damage modifiers are applied when the DoTs are applied.
    Crit chance is applied every tick.


    There is 3 paths you can take regarding gearing as a Warlock for PvP.

    Heavy CP: More burst, more RNG.
    Heavy SP DPS: More steady DPS, less RNG.
    Heavy SP survival: Sturdy as f...

    If you go for Heavy CP, I recommend using Sparking destruction as your level 64 mastery and using this spec.

    If you go for Heavy SP DPS, I recommend using Methodical Destruction for level 64 mastery with as few CP as you can and using this spec.

    If you go for Heavy SP survival, you will require Deathblood from Iron Tombs and Fetish of the Harbinger from Nightmare Coast. Use Sparking destruction for your level 64 mastery and this spec. Notice that it uses LGV so watch out if there is a chloro in the warfront, you may want to switch to the Heavy SP DPS spec instead. With this spec, you can pretty much heal yourself like crazy due to every LGV heals giving a chance to proc both healing weapons proc. Those procs are unmitigated by healing reduction and heal the full 3-4k.


    Good luck and know that Warlock is next in line for buffs after Harbinger.
    Last edited by Fopod; 04-23-2015 at 03:04 PM.

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    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detpack View Post
    Warlock is getting a rework according to Red Hawk
    A rework is unlikely. I think we can expect numbers to be adjusted upward to bring Warlock up to par in the current meta and perhaps a QOL change or two, but I think most people would agree that Warlock is a fun spec that's simply fallen behind as others have been buffed. It certainly doesn't have the design issues that Harb does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fopod View Post
    If you go for Heavy SP survival, you will require Deathblood from Iron Tombs and Fetish of the Harbinger from Nightmare Coast. Use Sparking destruction for your level 64 mastery and this spec. Notice that it uses LGV so watch out if there is a chloro in the warfront, you may want to switch to the Heavy SP DPS spec instead. With this spec, you can pretty much heal yourself like crazy due to every LGV heals giving a chance to proc both healing weapons proc. Those procs are unmitigated by healing reduction and heal the full 3-4k.
    P.S., healing synergy crystal buffs Warlock Armour's heal component.

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    Rift Chaser Fopod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    P.S., healing synergy crystal buffs Warlock Armour's heal component.
    Oh wow that's good to know thank you.
    I'll have to test it out.

  9. #9
    Shadowlander Faeruna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fopod View Post
    A little clarification on how DoTs works.

    Damage modifiers are applied when the DoTs are applied.
    Crit chance is applied every tick.


    There is 3 paths you can take regarding gearing as a Warlock for PvP.

    Heavy CP: More burst, more RNG.
    Heavy SP DPS: More steady DPS, less RNG.
    Heavy SP survival: Sturdy as f...

    If you go for Heavy CP, I recommend using Sparking destruction as your level 64 mastery and using this spec.

    If you go for Heavy SP DPS, I recommend using Methodical Destruction for level 64 mastery with as few CP as you can and using this spec.

    If you go for Heavy SP survival, you will require Deathblood from Iron Tombs and Fetish of the Harbinger from Nightmare Coast. Use Sparking destruction for your level 64 mastery and this spec. Notice that it uses LGV so watch out if there is a chloro in the warfront, you may want to switch to the Heavy SP DPS spec instead. With this spec, you can pretty much heal yourself like crazy due to every LGV heals giving a chance to proc both healing weapons proc. Those procs are unmitigated by healing reduction and heal the full 3-4k.


    Good luck and know that Warlock is next in line for buffs after Harbinger.
    Ty for this I did not know that each tick rolls for crit. I thought that the total damage is calculated on application so if it crits it ticks for more each time. If each tick checks for crit...that makes crit power crazy good maybe even crit chance since in WF we'll be radiating dots all the time, the number of crit checks will be crazy.
    Last edited by Faeruna; 04-25-2015 at 12:05 AM.

  10. #10
    Rift Chaser Fopod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faeruna View Post
    Ty for this I did not know that each tick rolls for crit. I thought that the total damage is calculated on application so if it crits it ticks for more each time. If each tick checks for crit...that makes crit power crazy good maybe even crit chance since in WF we'll be radiating dots all the time, the number of crit checks will be crazy.
    It's the other way around. There is so many swings that crit will standardize your DPS. There won't be any spikes in damage because it's near impossible to get so many crits in a row.

    With 50% crit chance:
    1 crit = 50% chance.
    2 crits = 25% chance.
    3 crits = 12.5% chance
    4 crits = 6.25% chance
    5 crits = 3.125% chance
    6... = 1.5625% chance
    etc...

    Warlock burst consist of:
    5 DoTs ticks (Necrosis, Dark Touch, Life Leech, Atrophy, Defile), 6 under 50% health (Death's Door), 7 if your extra DoT tick at the same time (Withering Vines or Blazing Light or Living Storm)
    5 ticks of Arcane Manipulation
    Void Barrage initial tick
    5 ticks of conflux, 6 under 50% health

    At it's best potential you also add Draining Bolt and Neddra's Torture for maximum burst.

    That's between 16 and 20 swings on one burst.
    The chances for you to get enough crits for it to matter are practically zero.

    Not only that, but Warlock inherent crit chance is very low and in PvP, against people with points in their War Planar Attunement, your crit chance is reduce by 10%, making you even less likely to crit.

    Hence why spell power heavy is simply better. But if you already have a full set of CP gear to go with other specs or for PvE, then I recommend using the CP heavy build.
    If you want to play Warlock in a very serious way for PvP, I recommend SP heavy build with SP heavy gear and to have both the SP heavy DPS build and the survival one to fit the Warfront need.

  11. #11
    Shadowlander Faeruna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fopod View Post
    It's the other way around. There is so many swings that crit will standardize your DPS. There won't be any spikes in damage because it's near impossible to get so many crits in a row.

    With 50% crit chance:
    1 crit = 50% chance.
    2 crits = 25% chance.
    3 crits = 12.5% chance
    4 crits = 6.25% chance
    5 crits = 3.125% chance
    6... = 1.5625% chance
    etc...

    Warlock burst consist of:
    5 DoTs ticks (Necrosis, Dark Touch, Life Leech, Atrophy, Defile), 6 under 50% health (Death's Door), 7 if your extra DoT tick at the same time (Withering Vines or Blazing Light or Living Storm)
    5 ticks of Arcane Manipulation
    Void Barrage initial tick
    5 ticks of conflux, 6 under 50% health

    At it's best potential you also add Draining Bolt and Neddra's Torture for maximum burst.

    That's between 16 and 20 swings on one burst.
    The chances for you to get enough crits for it to matter are practically zero.

    Not only that, but Warlock inherent crit chance is very low and in PvP, against people with points in their War Planar Attunement, your crit chance is reduce by 10%, making you even less likely to crit.

    Hence why spell power heavy is simply better. But if you already have a full set of CP gear to go with other specs or for PvE, then I recommend using the CP heavy build.
    If you want to play Warlock in a very serious way for PvP, I recommend SP heavy build with SP heavy gear and to have both the SP heavy DPS build and the survival one to fit the Warfront need.
    Indeed, I have started collecting SP gear for both the survival and heavy SP builds.

    I guess your reasoning above also applies to radiate death which would apply about 15 dots, 2 or 3 of which would crit. Each of their ticks also have a chance to crit. This is what got me thinking. But ultimately, the burst is waaaay strong enough to not bother with CP.

    Ty for the response

  12. #12
    Ascendant Intim's Avatar
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    I tell you this sort of discussion helps explain how warlock does really well in PvP.

    Here is an example of what I meanWarlock in Action
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    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intim View Post
    I tell you this sort of discussion helps explain how warlock does really well in PvP.

    Here is an example of what I meanWarlock in Action
    Warlock does okay in PvP, not well.
    A good player will make any spec look good, this is something that should always be considered.

    Just try Reaver, Paragon, Warlord, Assassin, Nightblade, Marksman, Shaman and Inquisitor...
    All of those are better, in PvP, than any DPS spec mage has.

    Try Sentinel, Physician, Defiler and Purifier....
    All of those are better, again in PvP, than chloro... hell even Liberator and Warden to some extent. They are better for AoE heal than LGV Chloro and a Liberator is the most tanky healer in the game so it's harder to kill than a Chloro...

    The only thing mage has for PvP right now is Dominator and to some extent Pyro... But even Pyro is crap compared to the rest. It's the only spec aside from Warlock that we can DPS with in PvP. Everything else doesn't work because it's stormcaller hybrid while the 61 points specs are bad...

    Warlock as always been my favorite mage spec. I'm a fan of anything that is DoTs, but it feels extremely underwhelming when I got my Warrior 2 clicks away that can do much better with Reaver...
    Last edited by Snap; 04-29-2015 at 01:46 PM.
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  14. #14
    Plane Walker InflatablePanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    Warlock does okay in PvP, not well.
    A good player will make any spec look good, this is something that should always be considered.

    Just try Reaver, Paragon, Warlord, Assassin, Nightblade, Marksman, Shaman and Inquisitor...
    All of those are better, in PvP, than any DPS spec mage has.

    Try Sentinel, Physician, Defiler and Purifier....
    All of those are better, again in PvP, than chloro... hell even Liberator and Warden to some extent. They are better for AoE heal than LGV Chloro and a Liberator is the most tanky healer in the game so it's harder to kill than a Chloro...

    The only thing mage has for PvP right now is Dominator and to some extent Pyro... But even Pyro is crap compared to the rest. It's the only spec aside from Warlock that we can DPS with in PvP. Everything else doesn't work because it's stormcaller hybrid while the 61 points specs are bad...

    Warlock as always been my favorite mage spec. I'm a fan of anything that is DoTs, but it feels extremely underwhelming when I got my Warrior 2 clicks away that can do much better with Reaver...
    I hope no one takes this post as informed information. You've said some stuff my friend, but saying things like Pyro is "Crap compared to the rest" is probably exaggerating a bit too much, and there has been discussions at length about how chloro is actually pretty good once you hit a skill level and gear level (Which with the introduction to t2 most people will be hitting now)

    Pyro is pretty damn good, high level of CC, multiple burst abilities so if you get Interrupted or target switch you're still in the green. Chloro once you do have enough gear and ability to play it properly is significantly better than a phys/Lib/Warden/Defiler(if your dps is on point) and hell maybe even sent if the duration is long enough for them to have to resort to channel back mana.

    Warlock is hilarious, but pretty poop since its burst is really eh, and burst is what matters in a warfront.
    Last edited by InflatablePanda; 04-29-2015 at 02:03 PM.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    Pyro is crap compared to other callings. It's not outright awful, the way it was circa 2.6, but its damage is too unreliable and its survivability is terrible. It's a glass cannon in a game full of cast iron ones. There are some things about it that are OP, namely its CC, that paper over its mediocrity in some key areas, but CC doesn't really stop your health bar from going to 0.

    It's basically the same deal with Chloro. The output is there, but output doesn't matter when you're at the respawn point. Chloro dies far too easily and gets absolutely **** on by Reaver.

    As for Warlock... well, you get Neddra's Essence, so that's nice. That's about the only way to survive more than 8 seconds as a Mage without going tank. The problem with Warlock is that it's very easily countered and when Void Barrage is on cooldown you might as well go AFK if the enemy hasn't died. When you're curbstomping an enemy, they die too quickly for Warlock to do much, and when you're in a tight match, there are much better options.

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