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Thread: Making the fight easier for Tank/Heal

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Making the fight easier for Tank/Heal

    Hi,

    I'm playing a lvl65 Mage and have run some NT experts, mostly as Chloro, sometimes as Pyro/SC.
    Often my party consists of guildmates and random people, and often they are quite new to the NT experts. When Tank or Heal are not that good equipped yet, the party often wipes due to the Tank dying, because he gets too much dmg for the Healer to keep up.

    What can I, as a Mage, do help the Tank stay alive? TL;DR I'm looking for a Mage support that allows me "make the Tank more tanky".

    I like the concept of the Cleric Defiler: Link the tank so the dmg the Tank receives get's reduced/redirected. I read that Necro has a 15% link which I can put on the tank in a similar way. Is there more that the Necro can do to help the Tank?

    I know that the Dominator has several forms of CC which can stop the incoming dmg for a little.

    The Archon is mostly increasing the dmg of the whole party, and can not make the tank exceptionally more sturdy. Is that right?




    I don't want to heal the tank, I want to protect him from dmg or lessen the dmg he receives. What Mage soul is best for this? Is there any?

    Thanks! :-)

  2. #2
    Ascendant forbiddenlake's Avatar
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    Yes, Necro has a link.
    CC (Dom? I don't main a mage) can help a lot with trash - squirrels, stuns, purges.
    Last edited by forbiddenlake; 11-07-2014 at 07:54 AM.

  3. #3
    RIFT Guide Writer
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    Necro, Dom, SC, Archon., Harb with Chloro sub.

    Depends on fight which you want to field.

    Necro link + ST purge

    Dom CCs + ST purge

    SC = AE Purge (Helps a ton vs trash)

    Archon = Waning Power (10% enemy AP/SP reduction, iirc), Power Drain (10% damage dealt reduction on enemy), and defensive auras, and offensive auras (Which boost healing amount).

    the Harb thing is withering vine, more trickle LGV heals, and radiant spores. Don't use if there's already a chloro.
    Last edited by evantide; 11-07-2014 at 10:07 AM.
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  4. #4
    Rift Chaser KelbornOrdo's Avatar
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    Dominator and Necromancer are your options for this. Necro is best for bosses while Dom is better for trash.

    Using Necromancer gives you more Single Target DPS and Soul Bond; a 15% damage reduction Link for the Tank. Necro has decent AoE damage through passive cleaving and Master's Rage while using the Possession cooldown. Just don't expect to do as much ST DPS as a Pyro or as much AoE DPS as a Stormcaller. The entire point of playing Necro is for Soul Bond.

    Dominator can be exceptional on trash packs if you know what you're doing with the Soul. It can even be more effective than Links from Necro or Defiler. CCing the mobs is probably the best defense you can give a tank; purging, silencing, draining resources, spell reflects, etc etc. Cabalist has it the simplest with their Sigils, but Dominator can do a lot of good too. Just be careful with Mass Betrayal as it can generate a LOT of threat really fast.

  5. #5
    Shadowlander
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    I would just say chloro in NT is a design flaw.
    While all other class healer have shielding ability, what do we get as chloro? Nothing.

    Shielding,in other word is damage reduction because the tank actually taking more damage that he could take. If without these shield, I bet 90% of NTE are still in progression just because a boss/adds will one/two shots the tank.

    Chloro really need some other mechanic other then just HP heal...like links or damage reflection. I know chloro can burst awesome heals but this is no longer effective in 3.0 anymore...(nerco shouldnt get the links really)

    I have seen enough wipes as chloro healer and perfect run with cleric/rogue healer. The situation need to be balance a bit now...

    (hope someone will make a suggestion to trion)

  6. #6
    RIFT Guide Writer Deeew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tirasey View Post
    I would just say chloro in NT is a design flaw.
    While all other class healer have shielding ability, what do we get as chloro? Nothing.

    Shielding,in other word is damage reduction because the tank actually taking more damage that he could take. If without these shield, I bet 90% of NTE are still in progression just because a boss/adds will one/two shots the tank.

    Chloro really need some other mechanic other then just HP heal...like links or damage reflection. I know chloro can burst awesome heals but this is no longer effective in 3.0 anymore...(nerco shouldnt get the links really)

    I have seen enough wipes as chloro healer and perfect run with cleric/rogue healer. The situation need to be balance a bit now...

    (hope someone will make a suggestion to trion)
    There is nothing wrong with chloro in NT. World first expert clear was accomplished by a chloro wearing quest greens, chronicle greens, and crafted items. It requires coordination with your tank to juggle cool-downs, time your burst heal instants, use symbiosis effectively, and most importantly CC from your group to lock down adds or purge their buffs.
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  7. #7
    Rift Disciple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tirasey View Post
    Shielding,in other word is damage reduction because the tank actually taking more damage that he could take. If without these shield, I bet 90% of NTE are still in progression just because a boss/adds will one/two shots the tank.
    Don't exaggerate, nothing 1shots tanks in NTE besides avoidable 1shot mechanics.

    You phrased it poorly but I guess you meant that shields effectively raise the max hp of a tank, which is true, but so do pure heals. You can add a 50% shield on top of a full hp tank, or you can wait till the tank drops to 50% and heal him back to 100%, the end result is the same.

    The only argument you can make is that it's harder to heal as chloro because you cannot just "overheal" with shields and have to time your heals well instead. But this is how chloro always worked and we never had a problem with it.

  8. #8
    Rift Chaser KelbornOrdo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggity View Post
    Don't exaggerate, nothing 1shots tanks in NTE besides avoidable 1shot mechanics.

    You phrased it poorly but I guess you meant that shields effectively raise the max hp of a tank, which is true, but so do pure heals. You can add a 50% shield on top of a full hp tank, or you can wait till the tank drops to 50% and heal him back to 100%, the end result is the same.
    One-shot was a poor term he used. What he's really describing is more damage being taken in a certain time frame than the healer has time to heal.

    And no, pure heals do not "increase the HP pool of a tank". The end result is not the same. With a shield absorbing, say, 50k damage a tank has lost 0 HP, and still has his full HP as a buffer for more incoming damage after the initial hit. Without the shield, that tank would have 50k less HP and be that much more susceptible to successive damage between the time that the initial damage is taken and when the healer is able to heal him back to full.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggity View Post
    The only argument you can make is that it's harder to heal as chloro because you cannot just "overheal" with shields and have to time your heals well instead. But this is how chloro always worked and we never had a problem with it.
    It's harder to heal as a Chloro because of the raw damage output of mobs in comparison to our healing output. Especially on packs of adds which hit fast and often. The main problem with Chloro is all the fast, repeated hits by Trash mobs. I've healed every boss perfectly fine. I've only run into trouble on the trash, since they hit so often.

    If a Puri has 60k worth of shields on a tank with 120k HP, and that tank takes 100k damage he'd still be at 80k HP. With a Chloro healing that tank, he'd be down to 20k. And many mobs do hit in excess of 20k, especially with crits now that Toughness is no longer present to reduce the damage and most Tank's base Avoidance has been cut down* to almost nothing with the new level cap and the removal of Parry. Avoidance shines on fast small hits, or basically trash pulls.

    *Most tanks in SL would end up with 15-20% Avoidance from Dodge/Parry from Prim/Sec Stats... now Dodge value is around 5% on a "raid ready" tank. Using 6 Harb with my Mage tank I can get up to 25% Dodge, the highest possible on any tank atm and less than half of what I could get with 15 Harb before the removal of Parry (was at 60% total Avoidance with that spec).

    More mobs in a pull means more hits more often, and at times can just get overwhelming for a Chloro to handle compared to other classes. All of Chloro healing is reactive, we have nothing to prevent damage. That's the reason why Puri and Phys are so strong atm and Chloros are comparatively weak in the given content.

    Not only that, but Chloro is the only healer that has to deal with travel time... and the mob still being alive when the spell hits. The most dangerous part of a pull is when mobs are being AoE'd down evenly and you just can't get a heal from damage off during the last few seconds that the mobs are alive. You either keep trying to do so by tabbing to the mob with the most HP, or swap to Healing Torrent/Natural Healing for guaranteed heals but at much lower HPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deeew View Post
    It requires coordination with your tank to juggle cool-downs, time your burst heal instants, use symbiosis effectively, and most importantly CC from your group to lock down adds or purge their buffs.
    Except that you're not going to see that in most PuGs. Which unfortunately is what most of the vocal community is experiencing. Half the tanks I've ever gotten in PuGs don't even know what their cooldowns are, let alone when they should (or shouldn't) be using them.

    This is what we do in Guild runs, but I've rarely seen the amount of coordination for a Chloro to be an effective healer in the few PuGs I've done so far in 3.0. Though to be honest, I think I've Chloro'd like 8 Experts total; I've mostly been Tanking them, or been Necro for a Link.

    But you also can't say that Chloro isn't the weakest healer, by design, for the given content -- because it is. Damage is front-loaded and spiky, which heavily favors proactive shielding than reactive healing. Many fights have significant movement phases, which again is one of Chloro's weakest points.

    It's not impossible to heal an Expert as a Chloro, but it's definitely not as easy as Puri or Phys has it.
    Last edited by KelbornOrdo; 11-09-2014 at 12:07 AM.

  9. #9
    RIFT Guide Writer Deeew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KelbornOrdo View Post

    But you also can't say that Chloro isn't the weakest healer, by design, for the given content -- because it is. Damage is front-loaded and spiky, which heavily favors proactive shielding than reactive healing. Many fights have significant movement phases, which again is one of Chloro's weakest points.

    It's not impossible to heal an Expert as a Chloro, but it's definitely not as easy as Puri or Phys has it.
    Is it the weakest healer at low level gear? Yes. Is it the weakest healer for progressive style healing? Yes. Is it the most spikey in terms of heal, instead of the perma-safety-cushion that phys and puri provide? Yes.

    Is it an incredibly powerful healer once you know what you are doing, or have the gear, and provides the most dps, and has the best raid utility? Yup. With the ability to both ST heal with extreme power, as well as contend with AoE healing builds, you have to have some sort of learning curve or trade-off.

    We require knowledge of the fight in order to be the most effective. With this comes practice, and timing. These are skills in which puri/phys do not require as much of, due to the shielding. Shield for days, don't have to worry about big spikes as much, just keep the shields stacked. Chloros require reaction, mastery of travel time, and knowing how to spike up health pools quickly and effectively.

    Also, experts were never tuned, nor intended to be easy for PuG's. You want easy? Stick to standards. Want to tackle experts? Recommended to be in a guild with ppl who know what they are doing, and voice comms sure don't hurt.

    These are called experts. Not normals.

    TLDR: Chloros are fine, they can heal well enough for experts, as well as dominate when we have the gear and experience with the encounter. Enjoy the early day struggles as you will be snoozing through them soon enough. Soon I will not even need LBV to heal experts, as LGV + bloom/es/phantom stream will be more than enough. With gear and experience comes ease.
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  10. #10
    Plane Touched Kallig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KelbornOrdo View Post
    Not only that, but Chloro is the only healer that has to deal with travel time... and the mob still being alive when the spell hits. The most dangerous part of a pull is when mobs are being AoE'd down evenly and you just can't get a heal from damage off during the last few seconds that the mobs are alive. You either keep trying to do so by tabbing to the mob with the most HP, or swap to Healing Torrent/Natural Healing for guaranteed heals but at much lower HPS.
    This was probably suggested sometime before but wouldn't it be better for everyone if the Chloro's LGV and LBV heals were triggered by ability activation instead of when the ability hits the target?

    I haven't healed any experts with Chloro but I can't even begin to count how many times the tank started taking heavy damage so I used Ruin but the mob died before Ruin even hit it. Wasted a GCD, Ruin went on CD, and got no heals.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallig View Post
    This was probably suggested sometime before but wouldn't it be better for everyone if the Chloro's LGV and LBV heals were triggered by ability activation instead of when the ability hits the target?

    I haven't healed any experts with Chloro but I can't even begin to count how many times the tank started taking heavy damage so I used Ruin but the mob died before Ruin even hit it. Wasted a GCD, Ruin went on CD, and got no heals.
    It was asked a lot and it would be a terrible thing to remove travel time.

    Travel time is the best thing about chloro.
    People just don't quite understand how much of a boon it is to delay some of your heals.

    Chloro is the best at burst healing and flexibility between tank and AoE healing for a reason...
    That reason is travel time.
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  12. #12
    Sword of Telara
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    what if chloro would get a mitigation link like necro?
    synth gives 15% mitigation or increases guard by 100% ?

    ofc a defiler would overwrite it, it just would be for the lack of shielding.

  13. #13
    RIFT Guide Writer Deeew's Avatar
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    What if chloro is fine the way it is, and it is a l2p issue?
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallig View Post
    This was probably suggested sometime before but wouldn't it be better for everyone if the Chloro's LGV and LBV heals were triggered by ability activation instead of when the ability hits the target?

    I haven't healed any experts with Chloro but I can't even begin to count how many times the tank started taking heavy damage so I used Ruin but the mob died before Ruin even hit it. Wasted a GCD, Ruin went on CD, and got no heals.
    Travel time is part of what makes Chloro a great spec. With travel time, NT can proc LGV/LBV alongside an instant skill (e.g. bloom, flourish, CS) for burst healing.

    If mobs die before your spells hit them, attack the highest hp mob.

  15. #15
    Plane Touched Kallig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deeew View Post
    What if chloro is fine the way it is, and it is a l2p issue?
    What if people weren't so condescending?

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