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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: 2.8 Pyromancer - PTS

  1. #106
    Rift Chaser VolsalexR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    Actually Vols, I believe you can put points into stormcaller so you can pick up RTW. Assuming the SC update lands befoer the Pyro one, that will bring quite a bit of mobility.
    By mobility I mean possibility to deal damage while moving so you can try to kite melee (though sby here in the thread was right, it is very hard to do even with live Pyro). You are right, but what for should you use it except when you need to escape? New Pyro's instants all have CDs and Thunder Shock/Ignite is just too weak.
    Last edited by VolsalexR; 07-03-2014 at 10:45 PM.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolsalexR View Post
    Could you please also partly restore Pyrochon?
    While I'm hoping the real fix is a soon to be upcoming revamp of archon, a few immediate changes would be nice to hold us over until that time comes. With pyrochon taking a beating, I can see harbichon and especially beastmaster becoming more prevalent in the near future.

    One interesting point is that if fireballs will be by default 1.5s cast times, it could lead the way for deep archon to be more viable even without changes as it would provide more of a reason for the 10% reduced cast time. Old pyro may have had cast times as well, but even then the majority were still extinguished down to 1s negating the need for faster cast times.
    Last edited by vexare; 07-03-2014 at 10:50 PM.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexare View Post
    While I'm hoping the real fix is a soon to be upcoming revamp of archon, a few immediate changes would be nice to hold us over until that time comes. With pyrochon taking a beating, I can see harbichon and especially beastmaster becoming more prevalent in the near future.

    One interesting point is that if fireballs will be by default 1.5s cast times, it could lead the way for deep archon to be more viable even without changes as it would provide more of a reason for the 10% reduced cast time. Old pyro may have had cast times as well, but even then the majority were still extinguished down to 1s negating the need for faster cast times.
    I may be wrong about what you wrote, but default fireball casting time remains 2sec. Pyromancer's Fury decreases it to 1.5sec.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    Ignite is terrible, as any instant spammable fire spell should be in a turret spec.

    And I haven't denied that Pyro needs a lot of work on the PvP side. That work does not need to involve making everything castable on the move and instant.
    I haven't done much with mage, most of my time spent in the game has been on rogue and cleric. But having an immobile caster IN RIFT PVP is a terrible idea. You are experienced enough in this game to know what I'm saying is true. I have no horse in this race, to the extent that I PVP anymore its on my rogue as it has been since 1.4 ish.

    To those who don't know what I'm referring to in regards to rift pvp in particular and non mobile specs. Its simple, Rift is probably one of the most bursty pvp games right now. And yes I know big pvp changes are coming for 3.0. I hope its normalization, but in the event its not, any spec that has no way to escape from burst is gonna just be cannon fodder. You can't dps while dead. I realize that says more about the poor state of pvp in Rift but its the world we live in currently. And if Pyro's are supposed to be viable they need to be able top dps to a degree while moving. Obviously the amount of dps would have to be much lower than stationary, but yea. I think its just silly for Kervik to say unequivocally that x spell simply can never be cast in motion no matter the balancing circumstances. I think that's short sighted. Especially as a design lead I think having an open mind is important. That's my 2 cents anyways.
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  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phox View Post
    I may be wrong about what you wrote, but default fireball casting time remains 2sec. Pyromancer's Fury decreases it to 1.5sec.
    But archon would still reduce it further by 10%. The GCD is 1second, so there is plenty of room to speed up the cast times. FB is by default a 2.5s cast, and a total of 30% speed increase (20+10) would put it at 1.75s, along with the flat .5s speed increase from fury stacks would put it at 1.25s. The order of operations of the actual calculation may be different depending how they code it, but the end result is a faster cast time regardless of what the final number is.

    ** I see what you're saying, I guess me saying "1.5s by default" is probably poor wording, I was simply assuming that you will always have a stack of fury available and that 1.5s cast time will be the norm.
    Last edited by vexare; 07-03-2014 at 11:02 PM.

  6. #111
    Rift Chaser VolsalexR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexare View Post
    While I'm hoping the real fix is a soon to be upcoming revamp of archon, a few immediate changes would be nice to hold us over until that time comes. With pyrochon taking a beating, I can see harbichon and especially beastmaster becoming more prevalent in the near future.

    One interesting point is that if fireballs will be by default 1.5s cast times, it could lead the way for deep archon to be more viable even without changes as it would provide more of a reason for the 10% reduced cast time. Old pyro may have had cast times as well, but even then the majority were still extinguished down to 1s negating the need for faster cast times.
    People will use Harbchon on most fights because it does more dps and Pyrochon loses double Lava Field anyway. This will just give us an alternative to 61 Pyro in PVP which is less bursty, but provides nice support buffs to teammates just like live Pyrochon.
    But archon would still reduce it further by 10%. The GCD is 1second, so there is plenty of room to speed up the cast times. FB is by default a 2.5s cast, and a total of 30% speed increase (20+10) would put it at 1.75s, along with the flat .5s speed increase from fury stacks would put it at 1.25s. The order of operations of the actual calculation may be different depending how they code it, but the end result is a faster cast time regardless of what the final number is.
    I played with Pyrochon a bit lately, in my 44/32 version:
    -Fireball and Earthen Barrage have 1.5 sec cast time. (with Lingering Dust up)
    -Volcanic Bomb and Spark Shower have 1.2 sec cast time (that's why I ask for Spark position swap, these 0.3 seconds are lost, and they deal much less dps than live Pyrochon)
    -Countdown use is not justified because it is weaker than Fireball and has 1.5 sec GCD as well.

    If you go further than 32 Pyro, you lose cast speed from LD and auras. While Fireball will be faster with Pyro's Fury, all your other spells will get hurt with this.
    Last edited by VolsalexR; 07-03-2014 at 11:04 PM.

  7. #112
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    yeah i just went back through the previous thread because i was going to make a point about selective memory but just go back and read it yourselves, 90% of it is worthless garbage about casting on the move, "don't change live pyro", or "fireball doesn't hit hard enough". and that's not to mention the qq in the pts and pvp forums. but w/e just drop it everyone's in hyper-defensive mode and we're going nowhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khelendross View Post
    I haven't done much with mage, most of my time spent in the game has been on rogue and cleric. But having an immobile caster IN RIFT PVP is a terrible idea. You are experienced enough in this game to know what I'm saying is true. I have no horse in this race, to the extent that I PVP anymore its on my rogue as it has been since 1.4 ish.
    The spec has a single cast-time spell that is 1.5s cast (1s cast with Heat Wave, 10s every minute). Everything else is instant (some of them OFF GCD) or movement-enabled channel. There are no stationary damage bonuses or positional requirements. We have a spec of this nature currently (Pyrochon) and it performs very well in PvP. The PTS Pyro will do even more damage than that spec, but won't have its utility (the utility makes it pretty OP).



    Moving on, I think the upcoming buffs will have the damage in a reasonably good place so on the subject of PvP, what I'd like to see:

    - Separate Scorch and Flashfire / Flash Burn back into separate abilities. It was a novel idea, but it's just too important to have full control over your CC and interrupt.
    - In place of the Flash Burn talent in tier 6, a talent to buff Burning Shield which causes it to heal you for 25% of max HP when it is consumed by damage (triggering this effect puts Burning Shield on CD for 1 minute).
    - Incinerating Flames (tier 7): additionally increases the teleport range of Flicker by 5m and, upon casting Flicker, increases your movement speed by 20% for 5 seconds.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    yeah i just went back through the previous thread because i was going to make a point about selective memory but just go back and read it yourselves, 90% of it is worthless garbage about casting on the move, "don't change live pyro", or "fireball doesn't hit hard enough". and that's not to mention the qq in the pts and pvp forums. but w/e just drop it everyone's in hyper-defensive mode and we're going nowhere.



    The spec has a single cast-time spell that is 1.5s cast (1s cast with Heat Wave, 10s every minute). Everything else is instant (some of them OFF GCD) or movement-enabled channel. There are no stationary damage bonuses or positional requirements. We have a spec of this nature currently (Pyrochon) and it performs very well in PvP. The PTS Pyro will do even more damage than that spec, but won't have its utility (the utility makes it pretty OP).



    Moving on, I think the upcoming buffs will have the damage in a reasonably good place so on the subject of PvP, what I'd like to see:

    - Separate Scorch and Flashfire / Flash Burn back into separate abilities. It was a novel idea, but it's just too important to have full control over your CC and interrupt.
    - In place of the Flash Burn talent in tier 6, a talent to buff Burning Shield which causes it to heal you for 25% of max HP when it is consumed by damage (triggering this effect puts Burning Shield on CD for 1 minute).
    - Incinerating Flames (tier 7): additionally increases the teleport range of Flicker by 5m and, upon casting Flicker, increases your movement speed by 20% for 5 seconds.
    I think that solves most of the issues on paper. Hard to tell until its live. But damage for pyro is fine on PTS, I don't think anyone is disputing that. And while it would be nice to be able to kite rather than just run away. As I said you can't dps while dead so being able to escape is something. And if you are escaping from melee the ability to pop out of range enough to get a few spells off might be the difference between you dying and you killing the warrior blindly running at your face.
    Planar Breach Support Open World PVP and PVE!
    Sourcewell and PVP Rift Objective Based PVP A more resource efficient way of adding Open World Objective based PVP!
    Ember Isle Open World Style PVP Repurposing Lets do something with this amazing zone!

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolsalexR View Post
    I played with Pyrochon a bit lately, in my 44/32 version:
    I haven't messed with new pyrochon, but wouldn't 36/40 still be preferred? You would lose 10% cast speed on FB and EB putting them at 1.7s, meanwhile CD and FBolt would be at effective 1.25s, and volcanic bomb and spark shower would be 1.4. The up side to this is now you would get a 12% dmg buff from having CD up.

    Although as mentioned I'd still rather see a 51+ archon become viable to assist the cast speed of all the other pyros, raid healing chloros, ect.

  10. #115
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    @Khel: Flicker is a 20s CD CC break and we'll have Ride the Wind in Stormcaller at 10 points which is a 20s CD CC break + 50% movement speed buff. Stormcaller also provides 5% damage mitigation for 4 points. In fact, low-tier Stormcaller is so good you could easily go 15 SC and pick up the 3% DR from 0pt Arbiter, too.

    Currently the best strategy as a Mage is to kite melee back to your team and/or force them to overextend to get them killed. Ride the Wind will make this a breeze (huehuehue).
    Last edited by Ianto Jones; 07-03-2014 at 11:23 PM.

  11. #116
    Soulwalker Revolutio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    - Incinerating Flames (tier 7): additionally increases the teleport range of Flicker by 5m and, upon casting Flicker, increases your movement speed by 20% for 5 seconds.
    The movement speed increase is a good idea after Flicker, though I would personally like to see a greater speed buff increase of a bit more than 20% at the cost of the 5 additional proposed meters and just leave it at 15m.

    For those times where your Flicker hits a twig on the ground and doesn't go anywhere

  12. #117
    Rift Chaser VolsalexR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexare View Post
    I haven't messed with new pyrochon, but wouldn't 36/40 still be preferred? You would lose 10% cast speed on FB and EB putting them at 1.7s, meanwhile CD and FBolt would be at effective 1.25s, and volcanic bomb and spark shower would be 1.4. The up side to this is now you would get a 12% dmg buff from having CD up.

    Although as mentioned I'd still rather see a 51+ archon become viable to assist the cast speed of all the other pyros, raid healing chloros, ect.
    Its a matter of taste, as you also get Patron's Rage which does good damage (is the spec's analogue of Fusillade) that also refreshes its auras. I just like shorter casts more. Totally both specs should have close to equal output (longer casts, but shorter GCD on instants and more damage).

    Though I took latest changes into account and it might happen that 36 Archon/40 Pyro can be better than these. It loses SP and damage/cast bonuses from one aura, but Spark, Burn and Pyro's Fury are just too tasty.
    Last edited by VolsalexR; 07-03-2014 at 11:48 PM.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kervik View Post
    Speaking of more buffs on the way, here's more of what should be hitting PTS probably next week at this point:
    • Accelerant is now a separate debuff from Countdown. Increased the duration of Accelerant to 10s.
    • Reduced the internal cooldown of Wildfire to 20s.
    • The buff from Wildfire now lasts 20s.
    • Fireball no longer consumes stacks of Pyromancer’s Fury while Heat Wave is active.
    • Reduced the cooldown of Fulminate to 30s.
    • Pyromancer’s Fury now also reduces the cast time of Fireball by 0.5s.
    • Increased the damage of Flame Volley, Countdown, Cinder Burst, Inferno and Searing Bolt.
    Awesome changes! Thank you Kervik.

  14. #119
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    Changing Flicker to be a no gcd spell would be nice as well.

  15. #120
    RIFT Guide Writer Allmightyone's Avatar
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    I can already taste the tears of people on the other side of this amazing Pyro burst. This next set of changes will most likely bring Pyro to where it should be dps wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post

    - Separate Scorch and Flashfire / Flash Burn back into separate abilities. It was a novel idea, but it's just too important to have full control over your CC and interrupt.
    - In place of the Flash Burn talent in tier 6, a talent to buff Burning Shield which causes it to heal you for 25% of max HP when it is consumed by damage (triggering this effect puts Burning Shield on CD for 1 minute).
    - Incinerating Flames (tier 7): additionally increases the teleport range of Flicker by 5m and, upon casting Flicker, increases your movement speed by 20% for 5 seconds.
    I hope we start seeing some changes along those lines. Pyro will need some survivability love and anything that can mitigate some dmgs in any form will be most welcomed.

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