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Thread: When to switch from 6 harb to 6 chloro?

  1. #16
    RIFT Guide Writer Allmightyone's Avatar
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    For what it's worth, I used both variation and most of my best parses are using 6 Harb.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    I didn't expect the mental capacity to see your own faults, don't worry
    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    backseat smartasses on an ego trip here... like you.
    Ahh, so I see you have resorted to second grade bully antics and name calling, I was hoping the mage community had more couth than that. Sticks and stones my friend.


    As for the math, I will be more than happy to oblige.
    Spoiler!



    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    All the math on the forum has been incomplete at best, and outright wrong more often than not. Feel free to post yours...
    Feel free to correct any math that you see fit, or even show some of that secret data that you supposedly have that you wont share with the world. If you like harb then by all means keep playing it. The difference between the two specs is within the margin of error for RNG variances so it's not like you are suddenly going to not meet the enrage timer anymore because you played the wrong version of lock.



    @Almighty: I don't doubt for a second that the 'best' parses were from harb. harb has high base damage, where as chloro has lower base damage and relies on it's higher crit rating to pull ahead. In a 'best' parse which always involves lucky RNG, it shouldn't be surprising that a spec with high base damage and lucky crits, will outparse a spec with low base damage and lucky crits. However I would argue that the average player and average parse should be higher in chloro especially while double dotting. (depending on one's particular gear stats of course.) Also, considering you are one of the better geared mages out there, it's entirely possible that for your gear stats harb is better than chloro anyway.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexare View Post
    Ahh, so I see you have resorted to second grade bully antics and name calling, I was hoping the mage community had more couth than that. Sticks and stones my friend.


    As for the math, I will be more than happy to oblige.



    Feel free to correct any math that you see fit, or even show some of that secret data that you supposedly have that you wont share with the world. If you like harb then by all means keep playing it. The difference between the two specs is within the margin of error for RNG variances so it's not like you are suddenly going to not meet the enrage timer anymore because you played the wrong version of lock.



    @Almighty: I don't doubt for a second that the 'best' parses were from harb. harb has high base damage, where as chloro has lower base damage and relies on it's higher crit rating to pull ahead. In a 'best' parse which always involves lucky RNG, it shouldn't be surprising that a spec with high base damage and lucky crits, will outparse a spec with low base damage and lucky crits. However I would argue that the average player and average parse should be higher in chloro especially while double dotting. (depending on one's particular gear stats of course.) Also, considering you are one of the better geared mages out there, it's entirely possible that for your gear stats harb is better than chloro anyway.
    Strong point. As a rule of thumb I always looked at my gear. And if I have a weapon that's from the tier I'm currently progressing on and I have little int heavy set and misc items I use 6 harbinger to boost the spellpower heavy weapon's stats.
    If it's the other way around I'm going chloromancer and if both are up I go with whatever floats my boat.

    I feel the gimmicky gameplay makes a way bigger difference for your damage output.

    -Creating double dot impact on refreshes
    -Refreshing Neddras Grasp with Radiate whenever you have ED up and with respect to the current dottimer to create double hits
    -Using 16 sec necrosis in double target scenarios to reduce number of refreshes on both targets until 50%, letting DD roll on both targets

    Another thing I use to do is playing a couple GCDs in the future:
    Often when given the choice to refresh my dots either at 3.9 sec left or at 2.4/1.4 or 0.9 I choose to refresh early and create maximum double dot ticks, instead of gambling for an opportunity proc within the next gcd to get a semi decent 1.4 sec refresh.
    Can't say for sure that's a dps gain but it feels like

  4. #19
    lgw
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    @vexare:


    First I have a number of reservations about your assumptions.
    Spoiler!

    But none of these are a big issue compared to...


    Your math, sadly, is not correct either.
    Unless you like "raiding" SLEs, you actually need to run your math including raid buffs!
    (1) +5% to attributes from Resonance
    (2) +140 Int from Archon Aura and Fanfares
    (3) +225 SP from Motif
    (4) +11% crit from Motif, Volcanic Bomb and Lethal Poison!
    ... I hope I didn't forget any.

    Using (4) for a quick double check, basically every ability for 6 Harb hits harder, based on your stats and accounting for crit chance.


    At last, another very important thing you forget is: Even as a DPS, if two options are mostly even, you prefer the one with a higher baseline damage. (Baseline here in the sense of no-crit, no-procs, etc.)
    Why is that so? First a lot of encounters have burns, and missing DPS on that burn not only makes your meter sad, it can wipe a raid. (Thraxx, Magcillian, ...) And even aside from raid-wipes, you have regularly occurring small and big burns just based on raid-CDs alone. Again getting unlucky on these will have a large impact on your DPS, so having two equal "average" DPS options will make the one suffering less on unlucky burns (aka the one with the better baseline) much more desirable for real encounters.
    Last edited by lgw; 06-15-2014 at 03:27 AM.
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  5. #20
    RIFT Guide Writer NotTrev's Avatar
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    It used to be that when you had a number of t2 pieces and no t2 weapon yet(especially no relic) it would start pulling closer to the Chloro subsoul. I haven't seen any definitive answer to tell you when you should use a Chloro subsoul, but at least one guy trying to push the spec suggested a 2.2sp:1int ratio or lower(favoring int) when nearing CP cap(1100+). Few weeks ago I revisited it because I'm in that position this tier, too. Higher Int values from some T3 drops(relic shoulder, ring, chest), still no weapon. Even sc ga legs, which means absence of another possible sp item, so I should pretty much be the poster child for this.

    The numbers I ran last week were on live in my dimension, so to be sure I redid them in the dummy foundry. No consumables(as it should be), keeping 2/3flesh rot consistent because that's what I use on live, contaminate ON, side by side comparison.
    Spoiler!

    Now, I'm not sure at what point my sp:int ratio needs to be 2.2 or lower, prebuff, pre-soul points, etc., but either way I'm sitting at Cp cap and below 2.2 in all forms.

    Conclusions:
    Even though WV is extremely strong, the gain over BL barely makes up for the loss on damage for every other dot tick and Chloro suffers further from losing even more on every direct damage spell cast. SP and SC are higher but Chloro suffers from the loss of the soul gift. There is the point of 388SC(worth around 160 SP, even at conservative stat wieght ratios) not being quantified in the damage values listed above.

    Attempt to quantify the SC:
    Spoiler!

    Even through attempting to quantify the SC into additional SP and applying that to the various abilities it's clear that you're looking at WV to carry. It's close, and I will say that Chloro does edge out 9/6 in overall dot damage(given the SC) but Chloro has to concede two things. One, it loses even more damage on every direct damage ability(including ng/nt and void bolt) and that all of those abilities get modified by SL with a theoretical 50% uptime. Two, the bonus SC I quantified won't be consistent like the SP I turned it into. It may give a bit more consistent crits, or you may just be left crying that your ED/FP Vbarr/CA proc didn't crit like all the warriors with their SB/Alac/FP RH

    TLDR: Close, but no cigar. Unless, perhaps, you have even more T3 gear than I do and also no weapon.

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  6. #21
    RIFT Guide Writer IllusiveEQ's Avatar
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    When I do back to back parse comparisons, Harb variant always is ahead in my gear.

    I think chloro would be ahead if the soul had a dps gift bonus.
    Last edited by IllusiveEQ; 06-15-2014 at 08:37 AM.
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  7. #22
    Ascendant radiomaryja's Avatar
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    full t2, t3 tanking weapon and relic shoulders, cp capped. harb offsoul seems to parse better every time.
    Last edited by radiomaryja; 06-15-2014 at 02:17 PM.

  8. #23
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    I would use the chloro sub as a last resort to help with very minute amounts of healing from WV. Haven't seen it perform better than harb sub in a live raid yet.
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  9. #24
    Plane Walker Jmarz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evantide View Post
    I would use the chloro sub as a last resort to help with very minute amounts of healing from WV. Haven't seen it perform better than harb sub in a live raid yet.
    its not even worth it for the small amount of healing, take magicillian for example, HB used the chloro variant for that purpose during progression, on avg he ended up around 215~hps, that includes his LL personal healing, ontop of the trinket healing procs to himself.

    To answer other posters, both specs currently are closer than they have been in the past, but the harb variant always comes out on top. Im not sure why we are revisiting this yet again, we proved our point 5 months ago, we did it again a month ago. what is the purpose of trying to bring it up again? at this point i would say play what you prefer, if you get better numbers using the chloro variant good for you.
    Last edited by Jmarz; 06-15-2014 at 06:51 PM.

  10. #25
    RIFT Guide Writer NotTrev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmarz View Post
    Im not sure why we are revisiting this yet again, we proved our point 5 months ago, we did it again a month ago. what is the purpose of trying to bring it up again? at this point i would say play what you prefer, if you get better numbers using the chloro variant good for you.
    I'm pretty sure the OP asked out of ignorance, knowing it's a thing but not how far behind it is. It's not like he created the thread suggesting it was time to use the subsoul and we should all follow suit.

    I did my own testing before even seeing the thread only because I know that depending on your stats it's *possible* and that if ever there would be a time for me to utilize it this tier it would be now.

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotTrev View Post
    I'm pretty sure the OP asked out of ignorance, knowing it's a thing but not how far behind it is. It's not like he created the thread suggesting it was time to use the subsoul and we should all follow suit.
    This ^

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  12. #27
    RIFT Guide Writer IllusiveEQ's Avatar
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    So I have been hanging out in the dummy foundry and decided to compare harb variant vs chloro variant with raid buffs in a controlled envoirnment.

    Testing in dummy foundry on sub 50% dummy.

    Harb variant in live gear @ 5 min mark is averaging 33.5-33.7k dps.
    Harb stats:
    8015 sp
    2972 sc
    1285 cp

    Chloro variant in live gear @ 5 min mark is averaging 34.2-34.5k dps.
    Chloro stats with NA up:
    7916 sp
    3346 sc (32.56%)
    1285 cp
    Last edited by IllusiveEQ; 06-22-2014 at 06:36 PM.
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  13. #28
    Plane Walker Mav986's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IllusiveEQ View Post
    So I have been hanging out in the dummy foundry and decided to compare harb variant vs chloro variant with raid buffs in a controlled envoirnment.

    Testing in dummy foundry on sub 50% dummy.

    Harb variant in live gear @ 5 min mark is averaging 33.5-33.7k dps.
    Harb stats:
    8015 sp
    2972 sc
    1285 cp

    Chloro variant in live gear @ 5 min mark is averaging 34.2-34.5k dps.
    Chloro stats with NA up:
    7916 sp
    3346 sc (32.56%)
    1285 cp
    Interesting development.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by IllusiveEQ View Post
    ~
    With charred or without? Because that 100 CP does matter as you're junking 86~ SP for it, using T3 gear. The test would end up favoring chloro build more as they'd have a better Int/SP ratio to play off of, throwing the DPS for Harb off by roughly 300 down and chloro 200~ up, iirc.
    Last edited by evantide; 06-23-2014 at 01:32 AM.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by IllusiveEQ View Post
    So I have been hanging out in the dummy foundry and decided to compare harb variant vs chloro variant with raid buffs in a controlled envoirnment.

    Testing in dummy foundry on sub 50% dummy.

    Harb variant in live gear @ 5 min mark is averaging 33.5-33.7k dps.
    Harb stats:
    8015 sp
    2972 sc
    1285 cp

    Chloro variant in live gear @ 5 min mark is averaging 34.2-34.5k dps.
    Chloro stats with NA up:
    7916 sp
    3346 sc (32.56%)
    1285 cp
    i cant replicate those results with my gearlevel (full t2, t3 relic shoulders). tried the following:

    chloro with NA: sp 7660 / cp 3341 / sc 1211
    harb: sp 7401 / sc 2965 / cp 1211
    both with charred.

    harb came out ahead.
    then i realised that im not hitting critcap without banner/feast. since i didnt have a guild i just ate the feast and replaced my trinket (ultane heal out, cold heart in).

    harb: sp 7349 / sc 2866 / cp 1297
    chloro: sp 7600 / sc 3232 / cp 1297

    harb still came out ahead. can post the act breakdowns if someone is interested.
    and my samplesize was small, 1x 10min parse for the 1st option (harb 33.1, chloro 32.6) 2x 5min parse for second (harb 33.4, 33.0, chloro 32.4, 31.3, 32.0 (3 chloro parses because the 2nd was below expectation))
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