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Thread: Harbinger Update

  1. #16
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    1min / 15s CD EA barely makes a diff...
    * WG / PC are already 27s/30s for EA.
    * DtF / LF / LF are already full duration for EA.
    * You gain an extra Enrage (10% for 10s / 60s)
    * You gain an extra Energy Beam.
    * You LOOSE 15s for FP!

    If you actually wanna buff Harb, and it needs buffing since way too long, you need to make EA 20s. That doesn't fix it all (see #2-4 in my OP), but it goes some way.

    And Harb needs help now, not in two months. Hence my very easy, minimal suggestions to fix its issues -- again those have been brought forth way back, but sadly the devs consider a clunky, underpowered, lagprone Harb WAI obviously.
    Last edited by lgw; 06-10-2014 at 12:04 PM.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    LOL yea, of course I do.
    What else do you think "harsh DPS check" means? Thraxx execution?! o.O
    There are 3-4 real DPS checks in this game... And the first wave of BOB releases are none of them.

    And yes, preloading DOTs does make a lot of diff... If you do raid in a proper raid.
    Losing 4 casts on a <3min fight hurts. Losing 4 casts in the first = highest burn phase on a 3min fight wrecks your DPS.
    I asked because your statement was generic and I was not sure what encounters you were referring to exactly lgw.
    As for preloading DoTs, it helps, but not nearly as much as people tend to believe it to be.
    Surely slapping down all your DoTs at once helps, but it won't make or break an encounter.
    Typically.


    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    You just stated all what trion did wrong, wronger and wrongest with SL specs, Mages especially. It's not my fault they listed to forum cry-babies and ignored the people who have some actual clue about game mechanics, cause they don't happen to be buddies with ye deevs.
    That is being overly harsh for little reason.
    Many of the changes made were done to counter the changes made to the other callings. So for example, while pyro was originally still a turret spec, many of the changes implemented were done so that it could keep up with Tempest, and be able to deal with the abundance of silences such as Deaden that were in the game.

    Many of the changes made were endorsed by those who knew the game very well, and were done only to deal with the environment at the time.
    There is no reason to make such a blanket statement or suggest that Trion was wrong for their intent.


    As for harbinger, the reason its been last on the list is because it needs the least amount of work.
    While I do not agree with it, that is how it is.
    Last edited by Katosu; 06-10-2014 at 12:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wickede View Post
    please just stop posting your misinformation here
    Quote Originally Posted by Wickede
    how often you "snipe heals" is also important

  3. #18
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    I don't see how Tempest Winds makes target switching that much easier. You still miss out on the dmg bonus from the debuff for that Tempest Winds.

    Why can't we just have Piercing Beam and Rending Slash apply buffs (with inflated numbers)?

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    As for preloading DoTs, it helps, but not nearly as much as people tend to believe it to be.
    Surely slapping down all your DoTs at once helps, but it won't make or break an encounter.
    As I said, raid with a top end raid. Aligning CDs is what makes a major difference.

    That is being overly harsh for little reason.
    Many of the changes made were done to counter the changes made to the other callings. So for example, while pyro was originally still a turret spec, many of the changes implemented were done so that it could keep up with Tempest, and be able to deal with the abundance of silences such as Deaden that were in the game.
    It's harsh cause it's exactly how it deserves is.
    Soul design went down with SL. Mages suffered from it thrice so. And Trion doesn't even own up to it.
    And show me where Pyro is "keeping up" with Tempest. Oh wait, it isn't... When it was keeping up (for 2-3 weeks in 2.3), it was hammered more quickly than any Rogue hits Slip.

    Many of the changes made were endorsed by those who knew the game very well, and were done only to deal with the environment at the time.
    Endorsed by those QQing on the forums instead of playing the game. Endorsed by those who can't play top level cause they can't even recognise their own mistakes.
    The same people who still think Pyro is a top PVP spec. The same people who find Dom a threat (interrupt lol-wrench, dispel, be happy that the dude isn't a sin draining more mana than a dom while doing literally 10x the damage.) The same people who thing Chloro is used because it AOE heals better than Wardens and has LE. Etc etc...

    As for harbinger, the reason its been last on the list is because it needs the least amount of work.
    While I do not agree with it, that is how it is.
    Fact #1: trion claims to melee > range dogma.
    Fact #2: Harb is our only melee spec.
    Fact #3: Harb severely lacks compared to other classes melee specs (outside gimmicks). Since long time.

    If you enforce #1 & #2, you cannot let #3 stand. Especially not if it requires so little work, as you yourself said. If you even number tweaking based on solid data requires weeks of work, you seriously gotta work on your turn-around times.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpectralDerp View Post
    I don't see how Tempest Winds makes target switching that much easier. You still miss out on the dmg bonus from the debuff for that Tempest Winds.

    Why can't we just have Piercing Beam and Rending Slash apply buffs (with inflated numbers)?
    Tempest Winds selfbuffing is good, because
    (1) You don't have to delay your hard hitting ability (both burst and aligning CDs).
    (2) The TW DPS gain comes from the bonus tick at the end.

    So instead of 0-0-0-0% you get 0-3-6-9% and don't have to use you weakest ability stack debuffs.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    It's harsh cause it's exactly how it deserves is.
    Soul design went down with SL. Mages suffered from it thrice so. And Trion doesn't even own up to it.
    And show me where Pyro is "keeping up" with Tempest. Oh wait, it isn't... When it was keeping up (for 2-3 weeks in 2.3), it was hammered more quickly than any Rogue hits Slip.
    You cannot compare the current Tempest to the past Pyro.
    The changes implemented back then were meant for it to keep up with the behavior of the specs in that current time period.
    Same thing with marksman behavior in PvP.
    It was a matter of both PvP AND PvE that motivated those changes.
    Hence, your righteous anger isn't at all righteous, it is simply frustration that you did not agree with the changes.

    While one can say the long term was not considered very well, it was done for good reasons.


    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Endorsed by those QQing on the forums instead of playing the game. Endorsed by those who can't play top level cause they can't even recognise their own mistakes.
    The same people who still think Pyro is a top PVP spec. The same people who find Dom a threat (interrupt lol-wrench, dispel, be happy that the dude isn't a sin draining more mana than a dom while doing literally 10x the damage.) The same people who thing Chloro is used because it AOE heals better than Wardens and has LE. Etc etc...
    Now you are just being bitter and remembeirng things how you want it to be remembered.
    Many of those changes were done so that Pyro could be a top PvP spec because it kept being shut down by LOL marksman.

    Why do you think specs like Pyro/dom existed in vanilla RIFT? TO deal with the issue of abundant CC and the lack of quick casting abilities to set up burst.
    To suggest that Sl introduced problems or dumbed things down is hardly true.
    All it did was shift from hybrids to pure specs so you could get what you should have had in the first place.



    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Fact #1: trion claims to melee > range dogma.
    Fact #2: Harb is our only melee spec.
    Fact #3: Harb severely lacks compared to other classes melee specs (outside gimmicks). Since long time.

    If you enforce #1 & #2, you cannot let #3 stand. Especially not if it requires so little work, as you yourself said. If you even number tweaking based on solid data requires weeks of work, you seriously gotta work on your turn-around times.
    Are you honestly suggesting that Stormcaller should have been placed behind Harbinger in terms of priority? That is hardly true at all.
    Stormcaller has been rather useless ever since the removal of building storm, its been pretty much a dead soul until now.
    Pyromancer has been a mess for well over a year now for the changes that YOU are complaining about above, that you attack the community for wanting in the first place.

    While Harbinger is in an uncomfortable spot, it isn't as if mage's do not have alternatives in Warlock currently to hold them over until harbinger can be addressed.

    Much of which is minor changes that can be done pretty quickly.
    Quote Originally Posted by wickede View Post
    please just stop posting your misinformation here
    Quote Originally Posted by Wickede
    how often you "snipe heals" is also important

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    You cannot compare the current Tempest to the past Pyro.
    The changes implemented back then were meant for it to keep up with the behavior of the specs in that current time period.
    Except it never did.

    It was a matter of both PvP AND PvE that motivated those changes.
    They failed at both.

    Hence, your righteous anger isn't at all righteous, it is simply frustration that you did not agree with the changes.
    Anger? Frustration?!
    If you aim for psychiatrist degree, it's not only the wrong forum, you're not even good at it.

    While one can say the long term was not considered very well, it was done for good reasons.
    Forum QQ is never a good reason.


    Now you are just being bitter and remembeirng things how you want it to be remembered.
    Many of those changes were done so that Pyro could be a top PvP spec because it kept being shut down by LOL marksman.
    Pyro never was a top PVP in SL outside its 3 weeks of glory. Never.

    Why do you think specs like Pyro/dom existed in vanilla RIFT? TO deal with the issue of abundant CC and the lack of quick casting abilities to set up burst.
    No, because it had utility.
    In vanilla, Pyro was better for pure killing, but it had less utility. Both were viable and good specs.

    To suggest that Sl introduced problems or dumbed things down is hardly true.
    All it did was shift from hybrids to pure specs so you could get what you should have had in the first place.
    You managed to contradict yourself within the span of two sentences, GJ. Less work for me.

    Are you honestly suggesting that Stormcaller should have been placed behind Harbinger in terms of priority? That is hardly true at all.
    Harbinger is the job of 1h work. Given the relative standing based on trion's very own (stupid) dogma, yes it always is in a priority position to be monitored and in the least adjusted.

    Stormcaller has been rather useless ever since the removal of building storm, its been pretty much a dead soul until now.
    SC's problem is applicability before anything else.
    Yes, now we have two fights (LGS, Aky) where you could pad meters with it. Except you're still better off using Warlock to keep priority DPS and get free AOE from Radiate Death.

    And PVP wise we have a good spec for those AOE situations... It's called Dom. It's good because it brakes AOE stalemates.
    Outside that, again, you would better roll an ST spec and kill actual targets instead of padding meters with AOE.

    Pyromancer has been a mess for well over a year now for the changes that YOU are complaining about above, that you attack the community for wanting in the first place.
    The QQ'ers got what they QQ'd for. Guess what followed? More QQ.

    While Harbinger is in an uncomfortable spot, it isn't as if mage's do not have alternatives in Warlock currently to hold them over until harbinger can be addressed.
    Maximise your own performance, then raid current content. And then tell me how Warlock is fine when it's semi-carried by other classes on some fights, and plain and utterly behind by a ton on the one really relevant.

    Much of which is minor changes that can be done pretty quickly.
    ... which is all what I've been asking for in my OP. Remember it was you who started derailing the whole thing. Not like it's the first time...
    As such, I'll stop this pointless, uneducated crap and just go back to the actual problem of this thread... Harbinger.
    Last edited by lgw; 06-10-2014 at 01:55 PM.
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  8. #23
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    The fixes prescribed in the OP really aren't that simple. That would have us right back here once everyone's t3 geared looking for more Harb buffs. Why? Because Harb died for much the same reason Shaman is dying.

    Warrior specs get anywhere from 1.5 to 1.7 AP per 1 AP they equip from gear. Assassin gets 30% AP contribution to their weapon enchantments. Warlock gets 15% SP contribution to their DOTs.

    Shaman? 10% SP contribution to Crushing Blow and Icy Blow. Harb? 1.1 SP per 1 SP equipped.

    This is entirely a scaling issue resulting from other souls having relatively recent updates and Harb remaining mostly unchanged for a year and a half.

    edit: and this is a big part of the reason that people are underestimating the significance of the Pyro changes. 15% SP contribution to all fire abilities is wtfinsane.
    Last edited by Ianto Jones; 06-10-2014 at 02:00 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    The fixes prescribed in the OP really aren't that simple. That would have us right back here once everyone's t3 geared looking for more Harb buffs. Why? Because Harb died for much the same reason Shaman is dying.

    Warrior specs get anywhere from 1.5 to 1.7 AP per 1 AP they equip from gear. Assassin gets 30% AP contribution to their weapon enchantments. Warlock gets 15% SP contribution to their DOTs.

    Shaman? 10% SP contribution to Crushing Blow and Icy Blow. Harb? 1.1 SP per 1 SP equipped.

    This is entirely a scaling issue resulting from other souls having relatively recent updates and Harb remaining mostly unchanged for a year and a half.

    edit: and this is a big part of the reason that people are underestimating the significance of the Pyro changes. 15% SP contribution to all fire abilities is wtfinsane.
    Actually that's not the full story.
    SP (or AP) scaling isn't based on the SP (AP) +X% bonus alone, it is just as much based on the overall damage bonus of the spec. Suggestion #2 gets RS from +9% to +12% or +15%, which would be a step in the right direction.

    The next issue is native crit chance for CP scaling. That is a big issue for Harb, but one that cannot be addressed easily to work across all tiers.
    At least thanks to high base stats, Ele +5% and Chl +25% Int, plus the option to gear SCrit as pure DPS Mage, on top of the raid's bases crit bonuses, it's a manageable situation at the high end.

    The last issue is aligning CDs with raid CDs, and suggestion #1 takes care of that.

    Suggestions #3 & #4 are to address the source of DPS losses, that seem to be no much of an issue, but accumulate to quite a margin over the course of an encounter.


    Shaman is not off well, but it has much better CD alignment and especially crit contribution, it still is the king of AOE in ST specs and it has reasonable tools to deal with minor disconnects, so it still maintains a solid position overall.


    All things considered I, too, would like more drastic changes to Harb.
    But considering the focus on other souls, the timeframe at hand, and the changes coming with T3, a sufficient numbers adjustment would go a long way already, with much cost in dev time. It certainly helped Ranger a lot.

    Edit: Regarding Pyro changes... Can't speak before number adjustments. As I said, changes delivered quickly and turret Pyro competitive to melee DPS would make Harbinger less of an issue. But as I said, I see neither.
    And it's hard to put the general changes. The +15% SP cost us GoP (rest in peace), OTOH we get a similar sized buff from specced Countdown. So it's too early for judgement on that issue.
    Last edited by lgw; 06-10-2014 at 02:16 PM.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Except it never did.
    Uhm...yes it did.
    For a brief period it did, and in PvP currently it has very strong burst.
    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    They failed at both.
    Later changes caused earlier changes to become obsolete.
    Happens constantly.

    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Anger? Frustration?!
    If you aim for psychiatrist degree, it's not only the wrong forum, you're not even good at it.
    Lgw check yourself before saying stupid things.
    Firstly for saying psychiatrist degree; seriously you might as well have just said Dentist degree; and secondly because you're just being obnoxious.

    Judging from how drastically your posting style has changed, it is obvious that you are upset.

    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Forum QQ is never a good reason.
    Are you not QQing right now?

    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Pyro never was a top PVP in SL outside its 3 weeks of glory. Never.
    This is a contradiction in itself, no need to address it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    No, because it had utility.
    In vanilla, Pyro was better for pure killing, but it had less utility. Both were viable and good specs.
    No it wasn't, pure Pyro was NEVER better at pure killing than Pyro/dom.
    Potential burst was higher, but it was much more difficult to set up and saw very, very little usage.



    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    You managed to contradict yourself within the span of two sentences, GJ. Less work for me.
    Neither sentence contradicts the other, seriously dude, drink some beer and relax.

    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Harbinger is the job of 1h work. Given the relative standing based on trion's very own (stupid) dogma, yes it always is in a priority position to be monitored and in the least adjusted.
    No...no it isn't at all.
    Stating that Melee > Ranged does not mean that a Melee spec will immediately get priority over any other soul in the game.
    The issues for Stormcaller have been longstanding and denoted being addressed first.
    Even more so given that Stormcaller was always looked at by the community as a good soult o hybridize with Harbinger.

    By addressing Stormcaller's issues, you can also help address the lack of hybrids and help Harbinger in areas it lacks. Literally 3 problems being addressed by dealing with one soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    SC's problem is applicability before anything else.
    Yes, now we have two fights (LGS, Aky) where you could pad meters with it. Except you're still better off using Warlock to keep priority DPS and get free AOE from Radiate Death
    I fail to see why you felt the need to restate what I did in a superfluous manner.
    With the iterations to Stormcaller, its actually going to be viable.

    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    And PVP wise we have a good spec for those AOE situations... It's called Dom. It's good because it brakes AOE stalemates.
    Outside that, again, you would better roll an ST spec and kill actual targets instead of padding meters with AOE.
    Dom breaks stalemates because of the utility that accompanies its AOE abilities, not for the damage itself. So I fail to see why you would even mention rolling an ST spec as the purpose of dom is not that of a killer.


    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    The QQ'ers got what they QQ'd for. Guess what followed? More QQ.
    This naturally happens because perfect balance is not possible and everyone wants different things. I fail to see why you are upset about it that you need to rail at the community for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Maximise your own performance,
    lgw, I have not tried to throw anything in your face regarding your own capability, I would appreciate you doing the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    then raid current content.
    Sure, give me the helm, gloves and rings I need and I'll go raiding with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    And then tell me how Warlock is fine when it's semi-carried by other classes on some fights, and plain and utterly behind by a ton on the one really relevant.
    Given that there are several individuals who raid t3 and are in high end guilds stating that Warlock is very good on the fights that matter, I would be inclined to lean in agreement with them. They have been providing parses after all.



    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    ... which is all what I've been asking for in my OP. Remember it was you who started derailing the whole thing. Not like it's the first time...

    You consider it derailing when I explain to you the reasons Harbinger is being placed last in terms of priority? Seriously?
    Especially when[url"http://forums.riftgame.com/game-discussions/classes-telara/mage-discussion/423545-harbinger-suggestion.html"] I was the one who started this kind of topic before you? Two of the suggestions which you copied? Could have given an honorable mention at least but hey, people have the memory of goldfish.[/url]
    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    As such, I'll stop this pointless, uneducated crap and just go back to the actual problem of this thread... Harbinger.
    I wouldn't go so far as to call you uneducated. Overly pessimistic, disillusioned and obnoxious yes, but not uneducated.
    Last edited by Katosu; 06-10-2014 at 02:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wickede View Post
    please just stop posting your misinformation here
    Quote Originally Posted by Wickede
    how often you "snipe heals" is also important

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    The fixes prescribed in the OP really aren't that simple. That would have us right back here once everyone's t3 geared looking for more Harb buffs. Why? Because Harb died for much the same reason Shaman is dying.

    Warrior specs get anywhere from 1.5 to 1.7 AP per 1 AP they equip from gear. Assassin gets 30% AP contribution to their weapon enchantments. Warlock gets 15% SP contribution to their DOTs.

    Shaman? 10% SP contribution to Crushing Blow and Icy Blow. Harb? 1.1 SP per 1 SP equipped.

    This is entirely a scaling issue resulting from other souls having relatively recent updates and Harb remaining mostly unchanged for a year and a half.

    edit: and this is a big part of the reason that people are underestimating the significance of the Pyro changes. 15% SP contribution to all fire abilities is wtfinsane.
    I wouldn't exactly say this is the issue at hand. Number's are typically balanced out after the mechanics/rotations are smoothed out and are balanced accordingly.
    So an ability can go without an increase in SP contribution depending on how the coefficients/base damage/damage fits are balanced out.

    Sort of how the melee specs typically balanced out well against each other when you don't have factors of raid cooldowns/CP involved.
    Once those factors come in its very problematic.

    I do, however, believe that SP contribution changes do balance things out more easily in long term because it will move along with the gear itself.

    I was the one who started this kind of topic before you? Two of the suggestions which you copied? Could have given an honorable mention at least but hey, people have the memory of goldfish.


    FML broke the link earlier.
    Last edited by Katosu; 06-10-2014 at 02:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wickede View Post
    please just stop posting your misinformation here
    Quote Originally Posted by Wickede
    how often you "snipe heals" is also important

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Edit: Regarding Pyro changes... Can't speak before number adjustments. As I said, changes delivered quickly and turret Pyro competitive to melee DPS would make Harbinger less of an issue. But as I said, I see neither.
    And it's hard to put the general changes. The +15% SP cost us GoP (rest in peace), OTOH we get a similar sized buff from specced Countdown. So it's too early for judgement on that issue.
    the new pyro is the first true turret style range spec since SL and according to its dps we will see how trion will handle the mage calling in the future.
    should its dps be similar to warlock, it will never be used, because movement hurts it badly and most fights have alot of it. imo it has to do more dps, similar to a melee spec, which would break the dogma melee>range.

    if you dont break that dogma, you cant have turret style range specs, trion should know this. so hopefully harb wont be our only option to do top dps again on certain fights.

  13. #28
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    Its not a dogma =\

    I think the issue people are having is that they think that Trion would never allow exceptions, and clearly this isn't true. *looks at Warlock doing melee tier DPS*.

    If pyro does turret style DPS im sure they would let it do just as much damage as any other melee spec.
    Quote Originally Posted by wickede View Post
    please just stop posting your misinformation here
    Quote Originally Posted by Wickede
    how often you "snipe heals" is also important

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    Its not a dogma =\

    I think the issue people are having is that they think that Trion would never allow exceptions, and clearly this isn't true. *looks at Warlock doing melee tier DPS*.

    If pyro does turret style DPS im sure they would let it do just as much damage as any other melee spec.
    i just hope you are right! for me this will be the most interesting part of the new changes to pyro.
    Last edited by Xirxe; 06-10-2014 at 03:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xirxe View Post
    i just hope you are right! for me this will be the most interesting part of the changes to pyro.
    Same, I have started to really like the Mage class due to Harb and Pyro.
    Something about those large crits makes me all giddy inside.
    Quote Originally Posted by wickede View Post
    please just stop posting your misinformation here
    Quote Originally Posted by Wickede
    how often you "snipe heals" is also important

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