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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Pyromancer Update

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pett View Post
    Target switching looks like it will be worse than it currently is, particularly if countdown is on CD when it happens.
    Countdown doesn't have a cooldown anymore, it also spreads with firestorm, and isn't reliant upon combust anymore.

    IMO, I would rather see Fusillade unchanged. Being one massive hit is very useful in PvP as opposed to a channel, and the risk of losing your damage potential due to mechanics is avoided.
    Last edited by Katosu; 06-10-2014 at 08:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wickede View Post
    please just stop posting your misinformation here
    Quote Originally Posted by Wickede
    how often you "snipe heals" is also important

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xallista View Post
    So we give up on Fusillade's damage entirely for 5 instant fireballs every minute? The only thing that makes it different from Extinguish is 0.5 secs GCD and a 1minute cooldown (compared to 15s). You mentioned that it is protected from interrupts and CCs, but it can still be purged.

    There are several other ways to go about improving Fusillade.
    1) As suggested earlier, make Fussilade a DOT that launches fireballs every 0.5s. Problem - can be cleansed.
    2) Make the channel mobile. Problem - too similar to Flame Volley.
    3) Make the channel uninterruptable. Problem - too OP?
    4) My personal suggestion: Make Fusillade a 1.5-2s cast time spell (like the way it is currently). Upon successful cast, you gain 5 stacks of Fusillade buffs, and fireballs you cast will be instant, consuming one stack of Fusillade per cast. Essentially a combination of the current Fusillade + Extinguish. Problem - burst potential is significantly lower than a channel with 5x fireball procs. over 2.5s.
    My suggestion doesn't cause Fusillade to deal less damage. Current iteration is that you push the button once and it casts Fireballs automatically every 0.5 sec, but it is a channel and will be interrupted easily. In my iteration, you cast Fireballs by yourself (push the button 5 times), but they are instant and aren't interruptable. You can also hold some of them if your target is about to die or your Pyromancer's Fury stacks felt off. (Fusillade is off-GCD, forgot to mention this) This will take the same amount of time (2.5 secs) in both iterations. Yes, it can be purged, but only MM and Inq have effective purges, while every single DD soul has a CC spell/interrupt.

    Searing Bolt should deal ~1/3 the damage of Fireball if not less given a change like this so it wouldn't be a DPS gain or break even, but at least it will be some DPS and be able to proc Wildfire for more Flame Bolts.
    I think it should deal 40% of FBs with Pyromancer's Fury damage, so it does slightly less dps assuming that it will proc CB and Wildfire more often.
    Last edited by VolsalexR; 06-10-2014 at 08:38 AM.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xallista View Post
    I guess here's the issue I have with the proposed Fusillade:
    1) Its a stationary channel, which means it can be interrupted (and essentially wasted entirely unlike an interrupted cast), LoS'ed and be cancelled/wasted due to the target moving out of range (via leaps/blinks etc).
    2) 1min cooldown.

    Take a look at the new SC's Raging Storm. I would say that it does about the same damage as the current 61 Pyro's Flame Volley (over 4s instead of 3s), but can be specc'ed to proc single-target forked lightning hits, on top of having only 15s CD. Flame Volley makes up for the weaknesses (as a channeling spell) by being mobile.

    Your Raging Storm gets interrupted/LoS'ed? That's fine, continue spamming Forked Lightning/Thunder Shock/Icicle for the next 15s.

    Your Fusillade got interrupted/LoS'ed? Have fun with your 2s fireball rotations for the next 60s.

    tl;dr
    Flame Volley has mobility.
    Raging Storm has a short cooldown.
    Fusillade has neither.

    IDK, would it be OP to have a 30s CD Fusillade with a 2s channel (so 4 fireball procs) and adjusted damage values to fit that of a 30s CD spell? My experience with Pyrochon is very positive mainly due to the fact that I do not have to rely on 45-120s cooldowns just to burst people with. The main spells used (Earthen Barrage/Spark Shower/Volcanic Bomb) were on 15s CD while the cinder procs ran on 10s ICD. Since Pyrochon is essentially dead with the changes, I was kind of expecting the new Pyro to takes its place - yet it seems that the new SC/Ele will be far better suited for that purpose.

    Hopefully the sustained/burst of the new pyro not counting Fulminate/Fusillade/Flame Volley is decent enough on actual practise, since there should be upwards scaling for the based damage values on cast time spells as mentioned by Ianto.
    You got interrupted on a 2.5 seconds channel? Then you got outskilled, outplayed and you are downright terrible for complaining about it.
    If you can't control the flow of the fight, there is no reason you should be given any kind of damage in PvP.
    This is the same as Nysyr's Rebuke complaints. Everytime I see a cleric try to Nysyr's me without CCing me first, I always facepalm. You get a root that doesn't break on damage, a blink, a 5 seconds stun on a 45 seconds CD and a debilitate. How can you manage to get interrupted on a 2.5 seconds cast?

    There is and SHOULD be downsides to every abilities. Just like a DoT downside is that it doesn't do burst, it's upside is that it still does it damage beyond LoS.
    The new fusillade downside might be that it can be interrupted, but god forbid the amount of burst that can come out of it.
    Just think about it... 4 stacks of fireball damage increase > Internalize charge > Countdown > Fusillade (Travel time) > Fulminate (Travel time) > Inferno > Profit

    But I doubt you'll be happy until they make Pyromancer like 1.0 when Fulminate would one shot people in PvP.
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  4. #109
    Champion of Telara Nnnxia's Avatar
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    Are there more root abilities currently in the works?

    Kind of hard to pass judgement on something incomplete and unfinished.

    14 roots seem awfully little compared to all the other souls and callings in the game.

    Its just weird that this Pyro variation is setting itself up for another round of PvP buffs 3 months down the line.
    Last edited by Nnnxia; 06-10-2014 at 09:49 AM.

  5. #110
    Prophet of Telara Fiskerton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nnnxia View Post
    Are there more root abilities currently in the works? Kind of hard to pass judgement on something incomplete and unfinished.

    14 roots seem awfully little compared to all the other souls and callings in the game.
    Have you seen the new stormcaller?
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  6. #111
    Champion of Telara Nnnxia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiskerton View Post
    Have you seen the new stormcaller?
    edit: nvm just saw heartbeat's screenie of 13 root abilities lol.
    Last edited by Nnnxia; 06-10-2014 at 09:56 AM.

  7. #112
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    Would it really hurt a turret style build to have something like Extinguish? If it really changes the desired playstyle, make the cool down a bit longer, like say 1 min or so. It sure makes moving out of goo easier, if you don't have to give up dps.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    Too much mobility makes DPS way too easy
    Having our 61 point not canceled when we have to dodge a void isn't making things too easy, it makes it viable. Pyro mobility is already hurt by the cast time of Fireball.

  9. #114
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    RIP in pieces difficult, mobile pyro. Hello easy, turret pyro.
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    Sharax will definitely be bug free .

  10. #115
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    Moving doesnt really help that much anymore as bunny hopping increases your hit box and makes it easier for melee to hit you, since having 3 charges with root on each one, pulls and +50% movement speed buff for 15sec wasnt enough.

    If turret spec will give any, even small bonus dmg I would take it, since being mobile with lower dmg doesnt really make life that much easier as kitting is nearly impossible anyway.

    I would like to see new 61 point ability which scale dmg and effects based on the charge, for example:

    Fire Vortex:

    - does fire dmg based on consumed charge. +"X" dmg per 1 charge consumed.
    - reduces fire resistance on enemy by "X" % for "X" seconds based on the charge consumed.
    - slows down the target by "X" % for "X" seconds based on the charge consumed.
    - increases mana cost of the next Fire Vortex for the next "X" seconds. Basically this could work as a drawback for balance purposes in case spamming Fire Vortex would cause too much havoc.

    Also this way we could decide between sustained dps or high burst in the cost of losing more % of our mana, though you have to take in to accound mana regen vials, VoJ, LE while balancing.
    Last edited by AlwaysHealNeverDie; 06-10-2014 at 01:21 PM.
    PvP in RIFT is good only @forum.

  11. #116
    Prophet of Telara Fiskerton's Avatar
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    There was a spell in eq1 that wizards had called Shadowstep, and it solved some of their turret spec problems. Basically, upon getting hit, it would randomly port the wizard to a nearby location.

    In rift it could look something like: "ogcd buff. Upon getting hit by a melee attack, ports the mage backwards 10m. Cannot port over walls. This does not interrupt channels and casts."

    Might help pvp turret specs a bit.
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  12. #117
    RIFT Guide Writer IllusiveEQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiskerton View Post
    There was a spell in eq1 that wizards had called Shadowstep, and it solved some of their turret spec problems. Basically, upon getting hit, it would randomly port the wizard to a nearby location.

    In rift it could look something like: "ogcd buff. Upon getting hit by a melee attack, ports the mage backwards 10m. Cannot port over walls. This does not interrupt channels and casts."

    Might help pvp turret specs a bit.
    Excellent adaption of the spell for rift.

    I would argue for a 15m reverse blink, but I like the concept.
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  13. #118
    Plane Touched zasen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    You got interrupted on a 2.5 seconds channel? Then you got outskilled, outplayed and you are downright terrible for complaining about it.
    If you can't control the flow of the fight, there is no reason you should be given any kind of damage in PvP.
    This is the same as Nysyr's Rebuke complaints. Everytime I see a cleric try to Nysyr's me without CCing me first, I always facepalm. You get a root that doesn't break on damage, a blink, a 5 seconds stun on a 45 seconds CD and a debilitate. How can you manage to get interrupted on a 2.5 seconds cast?

    There is and SHOULD be downsides to every abilities. Just like a DoT downside is that it doesn't do burst, it's upside is that it still does it damage beyond LoS.
    The new fusillade downside might be that it can be interrupted, but god forbid the amount of burst that can come out of it.
    Just think about it... 4 stacks of fireball damage increase > Internalize charge > Countdown > Fusillade (Travel time) > Fulminate (Travel time) > Inferno > Profit

    But I doubt you'll be happy until they make Pyromancer like 1.0 when Fulminate would one shot people in PvP.
    yeah causes its not like people can become cc immune or you know someone else who you;re not targeting decides to throw out some aoe cc

    congrats on the dumbest post i;ve seen so far.

  14. #119
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    My favourite part of the Extinguish QQ is how everyone ignores that the ability wasn't even used for mobility because it was a huge DPS gain and that its advent caused Fireball damage to take a significant nerf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iphigeneia View Post
    What, exactly, about this revamp makes it better, more interesting, and more worthwhile to play as it currently exists?
    First, a brief history:

    Mage turret specs used to be the highest DPS in the game. This was consistent for a very long time. Coming into Storm Legion, Mages were still top DPS, except it was by an unintended high margin due to Pyro/Harb. At that time 61 Pyro was the second-highest DPS in the game, beat out only by Pyro/Harb. It was also very difficult to play and rather immobile.

    Enter the QQ. While Pyros were two-shotting people in PvP, Mages on this forum decided that this wasn't enough because sometimes enemies ran out of range. Demands for mobility abound, the old 61 Pyro got changed several times, and each time more mobility was added the damage was nerfed. The result? Pyro was no longer a contender for top damage, and its output more closely reflected the other very mobile ranged souls like Marksman and Inquisitor.

    Fast forward to now. Pyro's gameplay is a disjointed mess due to the random abilities that have been thrown in over the past year and a half to accommodate the complaints. It scales poorly with gear, its sustained DPS is awful, and while its burst is very good it is actually limited in its effectiveness by Heat Wave's cooldown reset (i.e., it can't have higher burst than it does because of that CD reset component). Its overall damage output is really not far off of other very mobile ranged souls like Inq and especially MM.

    So, why these changes?

    First, yes, the soul is less mobile. But it's actually more mobile than it was in its older iterations pre-SL and at SL launch when Pyro was a powerful glass cannon. You are not sacrificing mobility for nothing. It will directly translate into higher damage output. That is the whole point. Immobility also makes the gameplay more challenging without relying on an excess of abilities and unnecessarily complex priority systems. Minimising the movements you have to make and making intelligent snap decisions results in higher DPS. People who don't think about positioning result in lower DPS. Player skill directly translates to higher output.

    Second, Combust is gone!! How are people not wildly celebrating? Pyro damage is no longer completely negated by cleansing. Pyros are no longer hamstrung by awful target-switching capability.

    Third, no CD reset. It sucks losing double-Flicker, but this is actually a good thing. This means individual hard-hitting skills like Fulminate and Cinderburst can see damage buffs because there is no longer a concern of Fulminate -> Fusillade -> Inferno -> Reset -> Fulminate -> Inferno scenarios of insane burst being OP. As it is Pyro's PvP burst with Heat Wave is among the highest in the game. But it's on a 2 minute cooldown! Removing the CD reset means our burst can hit harder and more consistently.

    Fourth, less RNG. We're getting more Cinderburst procs (from 5% to 30%). The removal of Aegis means you don't get screwed if you don't get procs for "filler". The removal of Aegis also means Fireball will hit harder, which means better sustained DPS. Yes, Fireball has a longer cast time, but longer cast time means higher damage.

    Fifth, better scaling. 15% additional contribution to all fire abilities from Spellpower. That is massive. Roughly 70% of spell damage comes from SP contribution, and SP contribution to all fire spells goes up 15%. much wow.

    Change is hard. But the sky is not falling.

  15. #120
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    The changes to Pyro, like extinguish, was done mostly because of issues in PvP Ianto, and occurred after the nerfs to pyro/harb which also impacted Pyro iirc.

    I'll dig up the patch notes, but I believe the changes like Extinguish occurred after Pyro/Harbs downfall and not before.

    As well as the terribly designed MM soul.
    Quote Originally Posted by wickede View Post
    please just stop posting your misinformation here
    Quote Originally Posted by Wickede
    how often you "snipe heals" is also important

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