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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Pyromancer Update

  1. #91
    Ascendant radiomaryja's Avatar
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    On the mage. Whole spec seems to revolve about doing proper stacking for uber crits.

  2. #92
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    I read this thread last night while dungeoning, and sat on it all night at work, and I have only one question.

    What, exactly, about this revamp makes it better, more interesting, and more worthwhile to play as it currently exists? Because as a main-mage, who has played Pyromancer in various forms since the day I created my first toon, I cannot see ANY improvement over the current set up unless damage is increased by some 15-20%.

    Lower burst, lower mobility, and yeah not timing Aegis fireballs is nice but I'd rather time fireballs than end up with a crap spec that I can't use on raid fights where I have to spend ANY time moving. Granted I warlock a lot in raids anyway, but on fights that are purely ST I'll Pyro instead because I know it best and can get slightly better pure ST dps out of it.

    So I guess I just want to hear from Kervik why the new changes are going to make life as a pyro -- for PVP *and* PVE -- better than they currently are.
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  3. #93
    Shield of Telara Wilkoss's Avatar
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    How about instead of:

    Fusillade (61 Points) Procs Fireball on the enemy once every 0.5s for 2.5s. Channeled. 1m cooldown.

    We have:

    Fusillade (61 Points) Applies a DoT to the enemy that procs a Fireball on the enemy once every 0.5s for 2.5s. (Tempted to suggest they do not consume any stacks of Pyromancers Fury but that could be too OP). Instant. 1m cooldown.

    Couple that with a 30 / 60 seconds CD on Fulminate and we get a very tasty burn every 1 minute. It also gives PvPers a nice semi-mobile burst with a huge 3-5 sec damage spike if used correctly.


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  4. #94
    Rift Master EverydayAnomaly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberrwocky View Post
    Pretty much the idea. How many times I've heard rogues ***** and complain about Pyrochon dps.
    Outside of CQ and Port Scion, I will do better dmg and KB's in 61 Pyro than in Pyrochon. The reason is the added mobility Pyro has. Even the little extra hardcasting you have to do in Pyrochon limits you and hurts overall dmg for a WF.
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  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iphigeneia View Post
    So I guess I just want to hear from Kervik why the new changes are going to make life as a pyro -- for PVP *and* PVE -- better than they currently are.
    thats a pretty good question and the answer is probably dps.
    with all the movement intense fights in pve and pvp, you need to have superior dps to be competitive.

    that means the new pyro has to produce higher dps than warlock or it wont be used. it could be a top dps range spec usable on fights where you not need to move too often (if thats possible).

    in pvp the extra dps would help but i still think fireballs shouldnt be interruptable or handled like countdown when cleansed (autohit the target for a fix percentage).

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xirxe View Post
    thats a pretty good question and the answer is probably dps.
    with all the movement intense fights in pve and pvp, you need to have superior dps to be competitive.

    that means the new pyro has to produce higher dps than warlock or it wont be used. it could be a top dps range spec usable on fights where you not need to move too often (if thats possible).

    in pvp the extra dps would help but i still think fireballs shouldnt be interruptable or handled like countdown when cleansed (autohit the target for a fix percentage).
    Fireballs being interuptable is fine. If somebody wants to waste his rupt on fireballs go ahead then I can cast other spells without worring.

    Basically you can use fireballs as a bait for enemy to waste their interupts. All those mind games can help you a lot to do full burst later without risk.
    PvP in RIFT is good only @forum.

  7. #97
    Rift Master EverydayAnomaly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xirxe View Post
    thats a pretty good question and the answer is probably dps.
    with all the movement intense fights in pve and pvp, you need to have superior dps to be competitive.

    that means the new pyro has to produce higher dps than warlock or it wont be used. it could be a top dps range spec usable on fights where you not need to move too often (if thats possible).

    in pvp the extra dps would help but i still think fireballs shouldnt be interruptable or handled like countdown when cleansed (autohit the target for a fix percentage).
    I realize you are mostly referring to PVE. However, on the PVP side, no other Mage build rivals the DPS of Pryo. Not Pyrochon, not Harb, SC, Warlock, etc.

    I realize on a test dummy, you can find a rotation that will give overall better numbers on some builds than Pyro - but in real life running WF's, you will never match their output.

    The fact that Pyro output still isn't what you see in other callings top DPS burst was the issue. However, if you say - I give up that top DPS because of the mobility of Pyro, then I don't have a problem with that.

    However, you also have a very squishy toon compared to other callings top DPS specs. And mobility only gets you so far with charges and pulls that other callings have.

    Pyro needed a buff to either crit chance and/or damage mitigation. It HAD to have at least one of those buffed and instead winds up with both of them Nerfed. SMH.
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkoss View Post
    How about instead of:

    Fusillade (61 Points) – Procs Fireball on the enemy once every 0.5s for 2.5s. Channeled. 1m cooldown.

    We have:

    Fusillade (61 Points) – Applies a DoT to the enemy that procs a Fireball on the enemy once every 0.5s for 2.5s. (Tempted to suggest they do not consume any stacks of Pyromancers Fury but that could be too OP). Instant. 1m cooldown.

    Couple that with a 30 / 60 seconds CD on Fulminate and we get a very tasty burn every 1 minute. It also gives PvPers a nice semi-mobile burst with a huge 3-5 sec damage spike if used correctly.
    That is a good idea. We already have Flame Volley as a channeled burst and we definitely don't need our strongest ability being a stationary channelled spell (even Warlock's Void Barrage, in comparison, can both be used on the move and has 1/3 of Fusillade's CD).

    One more idea for Fusillade - applies 5 stacks of Fusillade to the Mage. While Fusillade is active, Fireball becomes instant cast and has 0.5 sec GCD. This will allow 1) more control over management of Pyromancer's Fury and Fireball, you can spam FBs immediately or rotate with fillers. 2) will protect it from interrupts and CC. The only issue is server lags and AFAIK, people don't like 0.5 sec GCD in general.
    Last edited by VolsalexR; 06-10-2014 at 06:21 AM.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iphigeneia View Post
    So I guess I just want to hear from Kervik why the new changes are going to make life as a pyro -- for PVP *and* PVE -- better than they currently are.
    PvE wise...
    The reduction of the RNG proc to a more stable DPS.
    The removal of double lava field that was kind of overdue.
    A way more stable and clear rotation.

    Is Pyromancer gonna do more or less DPS? Is it gonna compete?
    Personally I don't care.
    I just want to like pyromancer again and I hate the awful current RNG based rotation.
    I know several people who does too and I know too many people that play only pyromancer right now because they refuse to play anything else. If it means those people will finally do the DPS you'd expect from them in raid because of a clearer rotation, then I'll be an happy camper.

    Plus fusillade now look like one of the coolest ability in the game. I mean... who doesn't want a machine gun of fireballs?
    Last edited by Snap; 06-10-2014 at 07:01 AM.
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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolsalexR View Post
    One more idea for Fusillade - applies 5 stacks of Fusillade to the Mage. While Fusillade is active, Fireball becomes instant cast and has 0.5 sec GCD. This will allow 1) more control over management of Pyromancer's Fury and Fireball, you can spam FBs immediately or rotate with fillers. 2) will protect it from interrupts and CC. The only issue is server lags and AFAIK, people don't like 0.5 sec GCD in general.
    So we give up on Fusillade's damage entirely for 5 instant fireballs every minute? The only thing that makes it different from Extinguish is 0.5 secs GCD and a 1minute cooldown (compared to 15s). You mentioned that it is protected from interrupts and CCs, but it can still be purged.

    There are several other ways to go about improving Fusillade.
    1) As suggested earlier, make Fussilade a DOT that launches fireballs every 0.5s. Problem - can be cleansed.
    2) Make the channel mobile. Problem - too similar to Flame Volley.
    3) Make the channel uninterruptable. Problem - too OP?
    4) My personal suggestion: Make Fusillade a 1.5-2s cast time spell (like the way it is currently). Upon successful cast, you gain 5 stacks of Fusillade buffs, and fireballs you cast will be instant, consuming one stack of Fusillade per cast. Essentially a combination of the current Fusillade + Extinguish. Problem - burst potential is significantly lower than a channel with 5x fireball procs. over 2.5s.

  11. #101
    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xallista View Post
    So we give up on Fusillade's damage entirely for 5 instant fireballs every minute? The only thing that makes it different from Extinguish is 0.5 secs GCD and a 1minute cooldown (compared to 15s). You mentioned that it is protected from interrupts and CCs, but it can still be purged.

    There are several other ways to go about improving Fusillade.
    1) As suggested earlier, make Fussilade a DOT that launches fireballs every 0.5s. Problem - can be cleansed.
    2) Make the channel mobile. Problem - too similar to Flame Volley.
    3) Make the channel uninterruptable. Problem - too OP?
    4) My personal suggestion: Make Fusillade a 1.5-2s cast time spell (like the way it is currently). Upon successful cast, you gain 5 stacks of Fusillade buffs, and fireballs you cast will be instant, consuming one stack of Fusillade per cast. Essentially a combination of the current Fusillade + Extinguish. Problem - burst potential is significantly lower than a channel with 5x fireball procs. over 2.5s.
    The 30% damage increased on fireball buff stack up to 5 times. If you think about it, the new fusillade is the way to go to dump your stacks. And if flame volley apply a stack on each tick, it means you can simply Flame Volley > Fusillade > Profit.
    I think Fusillade being a 2.5 seconds channel is perfectly fine and even more so if it's not mobile.
    Too much mobility makes DPS way too easy and getting a kill in PvP or having high DPS in PvE should be rewarded to those who can fit their spells correctly depending on the fight. Not to those who can randomly mash buttons while moving.

    My only request is that the animation for Fusillade is our character taking a golden machine gun out of his/her sleeve and start shooting fireballs with it.
    Last edited by Snap; 06-10-2014 at 07:23 AM.
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  12. #102
    Plane Walker Alastair's Avatar
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    seems interesting. just one more thing:
    inferno still off gcd?

  13. #103
    Rift Chaser KelbornOrdo's Avatar
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    There really needs to be something to address the issue of mobile DPS in PvE. I'm fine with Flame Volley and Fusillade working the way they do as per the OP.

    Not sure if it's been mentioned yet (really don't feel like reading through 7 pages right now) but here's a really easy solution to deal with movement:

    Remove cooldown from Searing Bolt. Reduce its damage (from whatever it currently is) dramatically.

    Or, just bring back Extinguish. The roots of the Soul Tree do look a little empty... I'm sure that can be squeezed back in.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    The 30% damage increased on fireball buff stack up to 5 times. If you think about it, the new fusillade is the way to go to dump your stacks. And if flame volley apply a stack on each tick, it means you can simply Flame Volley > Fusillade > Profit.
    I think Fusillade being a 2.5 seconds channel is perfectly fine and even more so if it's not mobile.
    Too much mobility makes DPS way too easy and getting a kill in PvP or having high DPS in PvE should be rewarded to those who can fit their spells correctly depending on the fight. Not to those who can randomly mash buttons while moving.

    My only request is that the animation for Fusillade is our character taking a golden machine gun out of his/her sleeve and start shooting fireballs with it.
    I guess here's the issue I have with the proposed Fusillade:
    1) Its a stationary channel, which means it can be interrupted (and essentially wasted entirely unlike an interrupted cast), LoS'ed and be cancelled/wasted due to the target moving out of range (via leaps/blinks etc).
    2) 1min cooldown.

    Take a look at the new SC's Raging Storm. I would say that it does about the same damage as the current 61 Pyro's Flame Volley (over 4s instead of 3s), but can be specc'ed to proc single-target forked lightning hits, on top of having only 15s CD. Flame Volley makes up for the weaknesses (as a channeling spell) by being mobile.

    Your Raging Storm gets interrupted/LoS'ed? That's fine, continue spamming Forked Lightning/Thunder Shock/Icicle for the next 15s.

    Your Fusillade got interrupted/LoS'ed? Have fun with your 2s fireball rotations for the next 60s.

    tl;dr
    Flame Volley has mobility.
    Raging Storm has a short cooldown.
    Fusillade has neither.

    IDK, would it be OP to have a 30s CD Fusillade with a 2s channel (so 4 fireball procs) and adjusted damage values to fit that of a 30s CD spell? My experience with Pyrochon is very positive mainly due to the fact that I do not have to rely on 45-120s cooldowns just to burst people with. The main spells used (Earthen Barrage/Spark Shower/Volcanic Bomb) were on 15s CD while the cinder procs ran on 10s ICD. Since Pyrochon is essentially dead with the changes, I was kind of expecting the new Pyro to takes its place - yet it seems that the new SC/Ele will be far better suited for that purpose.

    Hopefully the sustained/burst of the new pyro not counting Fulminate/Fusillade/Flame Volley is decent enough on actual practise, since there should be upwards scaling for the based damage values on cast time spells as mentioned by Ianto.

  15. #105
    Rift Chaser KelbornOrdo's Avatar
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    Stupid Edit Timer... what I was trying to edit my above post to:

    Easy change to fix mobile DPS -

    Wildfire (3 Points, Requires Improved Flame Bolt) - Your Fireball and Searing Bolt casts have a 10/20/30% chance to reset and reduce the cooldown of your next 3 Flame Bolt casts to 0 seconds.

    Searing Bolt (55 Points) Deals X Fire damage. Instant (with travel time).
    Searing Bolt should deal ~1/3 the damage of Fireball if not less given a change like this so it wouldn't be a DPS gain or break even, but at least it will be some DPS and be able to proc Wildfire for more Flame Bolts.

    It's no Extinguish, but I'm guessing the reason that was removed was that it was "too good".

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