Pyromancer Update

[paschl]

I have always said that mobility is more important and turret specs dont work. I have only see on other poster vocally ask for turret specs and they will be getting their wish.

There was a huge thread a while ago and multiple people where crying to get a high dps turret spec because apparantly thats what a real mage should be.
I didnt agree back then and i still dont but i would like a high DPS ST spec.

[zasen]

"Hey, we are mages we want a turrret spec!!! Give it to us!! I didnt roll a mage to play melee!!111"

Pyro gets changed.

"WHAT THE **** YOU TOOK AWAY OUR MOBiLITY?!? THATS NOT FAIR!!!!"



On a more serious note the changes look ok, i agree that Fusillade should be a channel (or whatever you can cast on the move) and i still have to test it but on paper it looks ok.

uh can you list all these people asking for a turret spec? i can only name one

no one is forced to play harb either lock is just as good or better in just about every t2 encounter and so far 2/4 t3

[Ianto Jones]

People ask for specs that reward players for min/maxing in pretty much every thread that goes down that line of discussion. How do you think that's achieved? How was that achieved prior to SL? What happened in SL that caused that element to be removed from our souls?

When people demanded ULTIMATE MOBILITY like Marksman and Inquisitor had, our specs had their damage reduced to compensate. That's how balance works. Mobility comes at a price.

[Shui]

Fireball = Instant
Searing Bolt -> Searing Blaze = 1s cast and Instant hit (will work better with other travel time spells, like CB+FULM works currently with Fusillade)
Heatwave = Only the 20% dmg reduce and CC break
Keep Fusillade as a stationary channel, now pyro would retain it's good mobility during normal spam and still have stationary moments for Searing And Fusillade burst.
I'm more worried about it being interrupted every single time rather than it's stationary channel.


Internalize Charge (8 Points) Costs 50 Charge.
Fulminate (51 Points) Consumes 60 Charge.
I imagine Fulminate should be 50 charge since there won't be +10 max charge in soul tree anymore?

Elementalist will be clunky because of pet anyways, so make that another turret spec.

[paschl]

When people demanded ULTIMATE MOBILITY like Marksman and Inquisitor had, our specs had their damage reduced to compensate. That's how balance works. Mobility comes at a price.

Unless youre a warrior of course

[MoMo1]

We are fine as we are, if it ain't broke don't fix it. It is a horrible change and ruins a decent PVP /PVE spec for what gain? I see no gain at all but the ruin of a good mobile spec.

[evantide]

"Hey, we are mages we want a turrret spec!!! Give it to us!! I didnt roll a mage to play melee!!111"

Pyro gets changed.

"WHAT THE **** YOU TOOK AWAY OUR MOBiLITY?!? THATS NOT FAIR!!!!"

The call was to swap mobility specs for mobility and turret specs for turret. The reminiscing about Pyro was about having no solid turret spec, instead having 2 worthless ones. Gutting a mobility spec for turret wasn't wanted. It was overhauling an existing turret spec to be stronger that was.

[vexare]

Or, you can just use Searing Vitality from Archon while you kite for Cinder procs. There's also Countdown -> Searing Bolt now, and of course Wildfire, Flame Volley, and Fulminate.


And yeah, if a melee gets in your face you're gonna have a bad day. But with Warlord pulls nerfed back to 20m, a likely forthcoming nerf to Debilitating Poison, a defensive CD on Heat Wave, and Arbiter, that's not quite as big of a problem as it once was. Also it's worth pointing out: yes, we lose Backdraft. But Scorch now has a stun component. It has a 10 second CD (45s ICD per target). When a 'sin pops on you, Scorch will be up.

Are you really saying that instant cast aegis fireballs were worthless, while at the same time advocating spam casting the same dot over and over and over again until you get a CB proc?? Otherwise of the ones you listed wildfire won't be up if your mobile since you can't proc it on the move with instant fireballs anymore, and two others have fairly long CD's that are no longer heatwave refreshable that you will likely be using as they become available to kill healers and thus won't be available during a kite phase to get away from a melee.

As for backdraft, not only was it AoE, but it did a fair amount of damage which was crucial to assist in bursting down healers. Who cares about stun duration if it's 2 seconds or 5 seconds. Either the healer has a breakfree available in which case duration doesn't matter, or he doesn't, in which case it's a matter of burning him the rest of the way down before another healer can cross heal him. The loss of backdraft damage, coupled with Inferno apparently being back on the GCD, means pyro just lost a ton of it's finishing blow burst capability even if spells like 2s FB hit harder on average than an existing aegis doublecast.

In your sin scenario what is a 5 second stun going to do for me? I'm not going to kite him without extinguish, or kill him in that 5 seconds by casting 2and a half fireballs, so even if he decides to not breakfree (unlikely) and he eats the full duration he will eventually become unstunned and proceed to obliterate me. Even with a defensive CD on heatwave as previously mentioned melee can easily LoS due to no collision detection in this game and simply run straight through our character model causing us to lose practically every hardcast ability we attempt. If Warlord pulls get nerfed to 20m, it only changes the initial 10 extra steps he hast to run which still wouldn't allow me to cast a full 2s fireball and would be an instant cast before he is in range as pull range is still further than escape range in flicker. Debilitating poison hurts current 61pyro but wouldn't hurt the new 61pyro that much because snares are pointless against a turret based build. I'm not going to be trying to kite him in the first place so what does it matter that I'm snared?

I love turret style dps for raiding, but for pvp it simply does not work. Just like warlock dot damage in pvp just does not work and will take a drastic amount of overtuning to make it even somewhat playable. I already cringe every time I cast Earthen Barrage in pyrochon as it is and that is only 1.7s because I know an interrupt is heading my way, I can't imagine going back to a 2s as our standard nuke.

[EverydayAnomaly]

Are you really saying that instant cast aegis fireballs were worthless, while at the same time advocating spam casting the same dot over and over and over again until you get a CB proc?? Otherwise of the ones you listed wildfire won't be up if your mobile since you can't proc it on the move with instant fireballs anymore, and two others have fairly long CD's that are no longer heatwave refreshable that you will likely be using as they become available to kill healers and thus won't be available during a kite phase to get away from a melee.

As for backdraft, not only was it AoE, but it did a fair amount of damage which was crucial to assist in bursting down healers. Who cares about stun duration if it's 2 seconds or 5 seconds. Either the healer has a breakfree available in which case duration doesn't matter, or he doesn't, in which case it's a matter of burning him the rest of the way down before another healer can cross heal him. The loss of backdraft damage, coupled with Inferno apparently being back on the GCD, means pyro just lost a ton of it's finishing blow burst capability even if spells like 2s FB hit harder on average than an existing aegis doublecast.

In your sin scenario what is a 5 second stun going to do for me? I'm not going to kite him without extinguish, or kill him in that 5 seconds by casting 2and a half fireballs, so even if he decides to not breakfree (unlikely) and he eats the full duration he will eventually become unstunned and proceed to obliterate me. Even with a defensive CD on heatwave as previously mentioned melee can easily LoS due to no collision detection in this game and simply run straight through our character model causing us to lose practically every hardcast ability we attempt. If Warlord pulls get nerfed to 20m, it only changes the initial 10 extra steps he hast to run which still wouldn't allow me to cast a full 2s fireball and would be an instant cast before he is in range as pull range is still further than escape range in flicker. Debilitating poison hurts current 61pyro but wouldn't hurt the new 61pyro that much because snares are pointless against a turret based build. I'm not going to be trying to kite him in the first place so what does it matter that I'm snared?

I love turret style dps for raiding, but for pvp it simply does not work. Just like warlock dot damage in pvp just does not work and will take a drastic amount of overtuning to make it even somewhat playable. I already cringe every time I cast Earthen Barrage in pyrochon as it is and that is only 1.7s because I know an interrupt is heading my way, I can't imagine going back to a 2s as our standard nuke.

This. Plain and simple. If you play a 61 Pyro in wf's then you know what is about to happen.

Kervik, please take a look at re-examining this kind of change. it will completely destroy the only viable PVP DPS spec Mage has currently. Pyro will be useless in PVP.

The only things that needed to be addressed was crit chance and/or durability. You have basically taken away burst (which is mandatory for PVP DPS) and nerfed durability by taking away mobility. I am kind of shocked at how bad this spec is you are trying to introduce. You have done THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what was needed for PVP.

[elfaraon]

People ask for specs that reward players for min/maxing in pretty much every thread that goes down that line of discussion. How do you think that's achieved? How was that achieved prior to SL? What happened in SL that caused that element to be removed from our souls?

When people demanded ULTIMATE MOBILITY like Marksman and Inquisitor had, our specs had their damage reduced to compensate. That's how balance works. Mobility comes at a price.

If you play pyro you would know that tempest have both very high mobility and very high dps so that doesn't apply for tempest. Pyro really need to keep some kind of mobility because this clearly will kill pyro for pvp nobody want to cast a spell in 2 second just to be killed by any other class before casting a single fireball.

[Tookmyjob]

As for PvP... traditionally Pyro was a soul that, if allowed to freely cast, would absolutely destroy anything (yes, it out-damaged melee classes). Its primary weakness was mobility, which is why it had (and still has) myriad CC abilities. This new design brings it back to that sort of gameplay. Between Flicker, and then Flowing Sands or Ride the Wind, there's plenty of mobility options available to us.

I like the concept of a turret spec, but things have changed for the other souls since then that make it more difficult to play a turret spec.

Melee specs possess more CC breaks than before.
Melee specs possess more gap closers than they have ever had.

More importantly, melee specs can do a very large amount of damage from range (assassin, harb, paragon in particular) and lessen the effectiveness of kiting.

I'm really hoping that this changes in the next expansion.

[Xynvyctus]

If you play pyro you would know that tempest have both very high mobility and very high dps so that doesn't apply for tempest. Pyro really need to keep some kind of mobility because this clearly will kill pyro for pvp nobody want to cast a spell in 2 second just to be killed by any other class before casting a single fireball.

this, but tempest needs a wee bit of a nerf for its mobility capabilities

[Tookmyjob]

[*]Accelerant (4 Points) – Your Countdown increases your damage against the affected enemy by 3/6/9/12%. Countdown deals 15/30/45/60% of its damage to the enemy if it is cleansed.

Kervik, is it possible to get something like this worked into Warlock? I mean the 'deals x%damage to the enemy if it is cleansed' idea?
A little change like this would make a world of difference to Warlock's potential in PvP.

[Nnnxia]

I think pyro needs some innate charge gain, maybe add +5% per point in Fiery Concentration (pushback)

The playstyle seems very warlock-like but without the dots. Basically just fireball (voidbolt) over and over until you get a CB proc aka consuming agony and fusilade(should be 20s cd imo) aka void barrage and internalize charge is basically empowered darkness?

Are CB and Inferno still ogcd?

Also 15 root abilities seem very low when other souls have 20+, which makes me assume this is a very early version and missing alot of key abilities.

Heatwave no resets change is pretty big nerf for pvp, no more double flicker/burning shield/etc. for survivability. The 20% defense buff is kinda useless when the priority is to get away asap. Only way to survive heavy focus would be an effect similar to unstable transformation. Perhaps change the 50% cast time reduction to simply instant cast fireballs. They have the same effect plus more mobility.

This is basically a 1 button spec lol, you can macro all your damaging abilities plus the internalize charge into 1 macro and cinderburst at the bottom.

New pyromancer armor needs to be unpurge-able in PvP. Not sure if Glyphs of power are still in the game.

Way too much emphasis placed on Countdown. It seems to be a very central theme of the new pyro's damage output. Pretty big pvp nerf as it is easily cleansable thus ruining your burst and damage debuff uptime. Lack of combust stacks/flame rupture/prime means there is no longer a cleanse buffer.

Overall, these changes are a big step back to the current iteration of Pyro for PvP in terms of burst damage potential, mobility,utility(omgbackdraft) and survivability. Spec got dumbed down hard.

[AlwaysHealNeverDie]

Full turret spec are kinda boring imo, better make it mix like MM where deadeye requires you to stand still while Strafe allow movement while channeling but it can be interupted.


I