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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Pyromancer Update

  1. #31
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    Okay, so now another question: The heck's heatwave used for? It's being used as a CD reset currently and there's several cast time spells that can use its speed boost but the new skills iteration trims down the casts to two: Cinderburst and Fireball.

    Cinderburst would be a 2.x second cast because of the spark cast time removal. Fireball would be a 1s cast, but you'd be trying to weave that in with building up stacks.

    I'm not really seeing a huge benefit from Heatwave. Seems like the Heatwave block would be 5x Fireball -> 5x Filler -> 5x Fireball.

    Depending on whether Pyro's Fury applies stacks on damage or cast, Fulminate and Flame Volley would be bad ideas to cast during a heatwave section.

    Also, inferno is on the GCD again?
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  2. #32
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    Aegis is the reason why I have enjoyed playing 61pyro in pvp because it's been such a fun mobile spec. It's a very easy mechanic and I have cringed everytime people have complained about it in here.

    I'll give it a go of course but it does look really sad in comparison to the current version.
    Loss of mobility, no Backdraft and Fire Shield and you can't reset all the other CC + Flicker with HW anymore.
    Honestly the amount of CC is kinda ridiculous and the burst is dumb, both in how much damage you are able to pack inside 1s window and the amount of keypresses required. So all in all I think it's good that HW reset will be gone.

    Just make Fireball be an instant and change Heatwave to be a solely defensive cd and pyro would keep it's mobility. One mobile spec for PVP isn't too much to ask, it's good to have variety and people can still play their Archons and Stormcallers if they want to sit still.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post

    As for PvP... traditionally Pyro was a soul that, if allowed to freely cast, would absolutely destroy anything (yes, it out-damaged melee classes). Its primary weakness was mobility, which is why it had (and still has) myriad CC abilities. This new design brings it back to that sort of gameplay. Between Flicker, and then Flowing Sands or Ride the Wind, there's plenty of mobility options available to us.
    Traditionally pyro also had ground of strength to actually enable us to freely cast and "destroy anything" was largely due to redball issues with 1 shotting people. And mobility options are really only options if you have viable spells to cast while your ride the wind is active. If you take away extinguish and the ability to be casting instant fireballs as you are running away, then mobility becomes largely useless. Who cares if you run away and disengage combat, you didn't kill anyone, you didn't complete the objective, in short; you lost. Two second cast times and the removal of backdraft will be problematic for pyro in pvp.

  4. #34
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    Very exciting, looking forward to playing the new Pyro!

    General questions:
    * Tier 1: Pyro is one of the few souls that has 11 points in tier 1. Any attempt to limit it to 10, maybe move Improved Bolt to 3%/6%?

    * Ignition, Stoke the Flames: One describes as "non-instant" and the other as "cast time abilities" are they the same or different?
    ** Addendum of a question I've never asked before: Do these benefits apply in the case that a cast time spell has been made instant, like Cinder Burst after Pyromancer's Blessing or

    Comments on changes:
    * I'll miss Fiery Resolve, especially with more CC now. Incinerating Flames looks like an interesting quasi-replacement, does it protect against new CC while active or only cleanse existing effects?

    * To confirm I'm reading it right: with 5 stacks of Pyromancer's Vengeance, Pyromancer's Blessing is at 30% proc chance?

    * Smolder/Chain Reaction are cool additions to help the Fire Storm damage, especially since we lose the 50% damage buff from Flame Rupture + Conflagration. A couple questions/observations:
    ** Smolder only spreads Countdown to 5 enemies that don't already have Countdown from this Pyro, right? It won't re-apply Countdown, therefore resetting the 8 second timer? Will Smolder continue to look for potential targets, or will it select 5 and only check to apply Countdown to those 5?
    ** This means we need to wait the full 8 seconds of Countdown for Chain Reaction to proc. Any chance we can have Countdown APPLICATION add no threat, so we can try to time things to get the chain reaction explosion earlier after Smolder spreads it from a Fire Storm? Alternatively, could we have Chain Reaction _also_ trigger nearby Countdown targets if the target dies? So it would be similar to CAB's ToD, but Countdowns that are triggered early because of Searing Bolt or someone else's Countdown (via Chain Reaction) would not trigger other Countdowns.
    ** Does Chain Reaction trigger nearby enemies regardless of how they got Countdown? Or only Countdown via Smolder? Or only Countdown via direct application?

    * Interesting removing Pyromancer's Aegis, instead combining armors with additional powers in the tree.

    * Are the Fireball procs in the new Fusillade treated like any other Fireball (e.g., Pyromancer's Vengeance/Fury)?

    * No Flaring Intellect or Fire Shield or Extinguish?

    Thanks for the ongoing work!

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    On the contrary it paves the way for deeper Archon becoming viable again for Spark Shower and Burning Purpose. That will only require a few damage tweaks to Archon's abilities (which may not even be necessary -- and remember that this does nothing to Harbichon).
    Well, there's lots of things changing in lower Pyro root also that tweak even 51 Archon. No more access to Inferno is a decent DPS loss.

    I like harbichon, but I'd still rather have double lava field for more boss burn damage and general raid damage. :/

    You're newer but this is not unlike what Pyromancer used to look like. You can expect the damage from Fulminate to be significantly increased now that it doesn't have to be balanced around Heat Wave's CD reset. Fusillade is obviously very powerful as well. All the problems with target-switching are eliminated. This brings the class back to a gameplay where positioning yourself and making intelligent decisions on where to move and when influences your performance. People who play smart put up higher numbers.
    I'm fine with this. The problems I'm mainly having with it is how it changes a mobile spec to super turret. I think it would have been better if they buffed Ele to turret god instead of reverting pyro, but that's probably just me.


    EDIT: Another question on the new IC. Since it consumes a charge on cast and Fusilade procs Fireball casts, does that mean it'll eat 5 charges or just 1 cause it's technically only fusillade?
    Last edited by evantide; 06-09-2014 at 12:47 PM.
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  6. #36
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    Only thing that bothers me right now is I can see I'm going to have to move buttons around. That and it seems like Pyro has been stripped of all mobility, which will probably make me play Harbinger more.

    But of course I won't really know anything until I get to try it.
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  7. #37
    RIFT Guide Writer IllusiveEQ's Avatar
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    Thanks for letting us know pyro is getting a revamp.

    I will need to test it before making any decisions on likes and dislikes.

    My Initial Knee-jerk reaction is turret spec's are not fun in pvp. The only way to make them fun is giving it enough tools to keep someone off you and kill them before they get to you. That then creates an avalanche of overpowered QQ from the rest of the pvp community.

    Since I currently use pyro / arb /sc (61 / 4 / 11) in pvp and the up and coming storm caller changes heavily nerf my ability to kite, this is shaping up to be another kick in the groin.
    Last edited by IllusiveEQ; 06-09-2014 at 01:05 PM.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by IllusiveEQ View Post
    Since I currently use pyro / arb /sc (61 / 4 / 11) in pvp and the up and coming storm caller changes heavily nerf my ability to kite, this is shaping up to be another kick in the groin.
    But with the new changes, you have to consider... Do you even need to kite during Heatwave any more?

    5% DR from SC, 3% Arb + 8% endurance, and then another 20% DR from Heatwave's passive. That's a huge chunk of defenses right there to let you stand ground and fight.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by IllusiveEQ View Post
    Thanks for letting us know pyro is getting a revamp.

    I will need to test it before making any decisions on likes and dislikes.

    My Initial Knee-jerk reaction is turret spec's are not fun in pvp. The only way to make them fun is giving it enough tools to keep someone off you and kill them before they get to you. That then creates an avalanche of overpowered QQ from the rest of the pvp community.

    Since I currently use pyro / arb /sc (61 / 4 / 11) in pvp and the up and coming storm caller changes heavily nerf my ability to kite, this is shaping up to be another kick in the groin.
    Turret specs can be fun in pvp if you have support. But solo queing is about the only challenge out there anymore.

    As for the revamp in general, i'm afraid that if the sustained dps isn't within 5pct or equal to lock sub 50 it just wont be the ideal spec on a lot of fights(magicillian being the t3 exception thus far). From looking at things lock in general will be better for movement heavy fights, any fight with more than 1 target and most importantly more survivability. Alas ill reserve final judgement until I can see the numbers.

  10. #40
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    The rotation became much simpler and I'm glad Combust is gone, but what will the changes do with Pyro in PVP... (2.0 nightmare will come back soon). I have a feeling I will lose 2 viable PVP specs at once (both Pyro and Pyrochon). Well I won't say much about it before I test the changes on PTS.

    Pre-commentaries (some QQ here, but I'm really unhappy with the changes that much):
    - Spec is very immobile. You have several instant fillers and Heatwave, and then you just stand still and hard-cast 2 sec Fireballs.
    - With the new Scorch-Flashfire, Pyro gets a 10 sec CD 5 sec stun he can spam left and right on different targets. Is this intended?
    - I don't see much increase for Pyro's Fireball output to compensate the loss of Aegis, Glyphs of Power, Extinguish and its 33% longer cast time. Does Fireball do the same base damage as before?
    - Pyromancer's Fury mechanic is better than Aegis, but it suffers from the same problem - Pyro doesn't have enough fillers to use its full potential, or depends on pure luck just to maintain its rotation (Wildfire/CB).
    - Channeled Fusillade is a bad idea (for PVP). From my Inq's experience with Nysyr's Rebuke, it will get interrupted/LoSed/CC-ed immediately. Now, at least if Fusillade is interrupted, you can cast it again. With the changes, everything that touches you will break your burst (and as HW no longer resets CD, Mage will have to wait 1 minute to try using it again. Even if you CC your target, that won't save you from AoE CC flying around/target's teammates with their interrupts.
    Last edited by VolsalexR; 06-09-2014 at 01:11 PM.

  11. #41
    RIFT Guide Writer IllusiveEQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evantide View Post
    But with the new changes, you have to consider... Do you even need to kite during Heatwave any more?

    5% DR from SC, 3% Arb + 8% endurance, and then another 20% DR from Heatwave's passive. That's a huge chunk of defenses right there to let you stand ground and fight.
    You most certainly do.

    Any player in mele range is simply going to cross your line of sight by moving in and out of your character. Since almost all pyro spells in this concept are cast times and require los, you simply fail to cast the majority of your spells.

    The dr only helps you die slower during that scenario.

    That is why I said they need the tools to keep a player off you to be sucessful as a turret spec.
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  12. #42
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    Im sure heatwave will be purgeable along with pyro fury stacks, pyro aegis etc etc.

  13. #43
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    Right now I see very little reason to use heat wave with raid cooldowns unless the number on fireball is so high that straight fireball spam for 15 seconds is a dps gain during heat wave.

    What if it also gave you five fury stacks on cast and increased fireball damage by X%?
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  14. #44
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    Are you all unaware that Fireball's damage was nerfed five times because of Pyromancer's Aegis and Pyro/Harb? Of course the base damage is not going to be the same. Or rather, the damage of a pre-patch Fireball will not be the same as a post-patch one.

    Quote Originally Posted by vexare View Post
    Traditionally pyro also had ground of strength to actually enable us to freely cast and "destroy anything" was largely due to redball issues with 1 shotting people. And mobility options are really only options if you have viable spells to cast while your ride the wind is active. If you take away extinguish and the ability to be casting instant fireballs as you are running away, then mobility becomes largely useless. Who cares if you run away and disengage combat, you didn't kill anyone, you didn't complete the objective, in short; you lost. Two second cast times and the removal of backdraft will be problematic for pyro in pvp.
    Not entirely true. In 1.5-1.7 Ground of Strength was worthless aside from camping WFS flags and 51 Pyro was still extremely potent (redball was nerfed by then too), comfortably the highest burst in the game. It's true, if you take Ride the Wind you can't get Ignite; but you can get Ignite and Flowing Sands (this was the old 51 Pyro spec, too). Or, you can just use Searing Vitality from Archon while you kite for Cinder procs. There's also Countdown -> Searing Bolt now, and of course Wildfire, Flame Volley, and Fulminate.

    Mages are already extremely team-reliant. This does not change the status quo on that front, it's true. The reason our DPS specs are so team-reliant, though, is because we can't really kill anything on our own -- we require others to focus fire with us. So yeah we can bunny-hop around pewpewing Extinguish Fireballs, but what's the point? They suck. 2s cast times will hit very hard by design. The removal of Heat Wave's CD reset lets our big-hitters have their damage adjusted upward without fear of creating the Double-Fulm/Double-Fus scenario that is borderline OP in the current iteration of 61 Pyro. Our bursts will be more frequent, more powerful, and more reliable, and our sustained DPS will improve to keep pressure up between bursts.

    And yeah, if a melee gets in your face you're gonna have a bad day. But with Warlord pulls nerfed back to 20m, a likely forthcoming nerf to Debilitating Poison, a defensive CD on Heat Wave, and Arbiter, that's not quite as big of a problem as it once was. Also it's worth pointing out: yes, we lose Backdraft. But Scorch now has a stun component. It has a 10 second CD (45s ICD per target). When a 'sin pops on you, Scorch will be up.
    Last edited by Ianto Jones; 06-09-2014 at 02:05 PM.

  15. #45
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    My biggest gripe is that Pyrochon just received a pretty big nerf. Thankfully i got the IS for Archon Crystals... On that note tho, i can still see Pyrochon working, but double Lava Field will be missed.

    Good for Pyromancers tho! Gotta buy more role slots in preparation for SC and Pyro~

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