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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Pyromancer Update

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tollwutig View Post
    Fireballs will hit 64% harder when consuming stacks without using Internalized charge, this is just the base increases in damage, not calculating the extra effects of ignoring resists or what you SP will increase. You should also have a base 12% chance to critically hit with 0 Spell Crit.
    The problem is that, if fireball base is still equal, then the new casting fireballs will still be weaker than Aegis on top of being less mobile.

    To me, it seems like we're losing a good chunk of mobility and burst for a tiny damage boost and more sustained output right now.

    Yeah, basically need numbers to really see if this is good or not.
    Meciel - Mage - Defer Death - Greybriar
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  2. #17
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    Default no extinguish?

    am i missing something, so pyro is complete turret mode now? don't like this idea

  3. #18
    RIFT Guide Writer Allmightyone's Avatar
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    The new fireballs aren't weaker. After your 61 points in pyro you get another 15 points that'll get you 20% SP and 5% crit. On top of that you have a 30% buff to fireballs from your armor, an extra 15% to spellpower contribution and an extra 12% dmg taken by your target from having countdown active. When you actualy put everything togetter the only concern is whether or not it will be good enough for PvP when refering to the mobility. You can't really chase anyone or run away while attacking. You do get ride the wind that can make you hard to follow or control but will it be enough?

    I like that Aegis is gone, I like that Heatwave is 1m and doesn't reset CD and I like the new fussilade. I can't wait to try this out in a couple weeks.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allmightyone View Post
    The new fireballs aren't weaker. After your 61 points in pyro you get another 15 points that'll get you 20% SP and 5% crit. On top of that you have a 30% buff to fireballs from your armor, an extra 15% to spellpower contribution and an extra 12% dmg taken by your target from having countdown active.
    I'm already accounting for most of that. The extra SP/Crit isn't valid since even current pyro can get that once the SC changes come out. Unless the base on fireball goes up, the new iteration won't be comparable to old evne with all the benefits.

    Also the rotation pretty much became Fireball -> Filler instead of fireball filler filler. No real big thing except trying to stack 5 stacks of Fury for Fusiliade to hit like a truck.
    Last edited by evantide; 06-09-2014 at 11:26 AM.
    Meciel - Mage - Defer Death - Greybriar
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  5. #20
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    I think you can expect all the current damage values on abilities to be in flux. The intent is clearly to streamline and buff the soul, you shouldn't really be worrying that the damage is going to go down...

  6. #21
    Plane Walker Alastair's Avatar
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    so extinguish is gone? and what will happen to pyrochon?

  7. #22
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    My biggest question is what are pyro's supposed to use to build up those fury stacks for Fusillade? You'd have to be damn lucky with Flamebolt/Cinder Burst procs to get them to stack up to 5. That, or spamming Countdown for 0 damage (assuming it stacks upon cast, and not damage dealt).
    Never liked the Aegis mechanic since there was no visual way to track it, but without some other spammable filler to build up those Fury stacks, this spec seems DoA.

  8. #23
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evantide View Post
    Yeah, basically need numbers to really see if this is good or not.
    Numbers are pretty much the last thing to be pegged down when designing, because of how tedious it is. It's much more efficient to crank out ideas, say "is this fun", and then worry about tuning things properly after you have a good foundation to build on.

    Otherwise, you waste time balancing out every single iteration that never even makes it to live. For instance, on the PTS, Physician was horrifically underpowered for a long, long time, while Liberator was comically overpowered, and we didn't see much in the way of tuning changes until most of the design concepts were done.

    TL;DR: Don't worry about numbers. Worry about problems that can't be fixed by numbers.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caldorian View Post
    My biggest question is what are pyro's supposed to use to build up those fury stacks for Fusillade? You'd have to be damn lucky with Flamebolt/Cinder Burst procs to get them to stack up to 5. That, or spamming Countdown for 0 damage (assuming it stacks upon cast, and not damage dealt).
    Never liked the Aegis mechanic since there was no visual way to track it, but without some other spammable filler to build up those Fury stacks, this spec seems DoA.
    Reading through the buffs Cinderburst is going to proc quite a bit more at 30% that it does currently with Aegis. I'm not sure about you but I'm constantly getting the 3 free Flame bolts proc. Also countdown should apply every 8s.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    TL;DR: Don't worry about numbers. Worry about problems that can't be fixed by numbers.
    The problem is that this build iteration doesn't seem fun at all unless there's huge numbers backing it up. On my first look, all I can see is that it changes one of our most mobile specs into a turret while taking out a huge chunk of its burst and making the rotation even easier. Already, that's 3 strikes against the spec.

    That on top of it gutting one of the support specs means I'm against it unless I can see huge returns.
    Meciel - Mage - Defer Death - Greybriar
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alastair View Post
    so extinguish is gone? and what will happen to pyrochon?
    I have a feeling we'll see an Archon (fingers crossed) rework thread coming along soon as well. Pyrochon itself is probably going to go away.

  12. #27
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    Oh also, Fulminate's still in that wonky 45s CD slot. Move it up or down and adjust accordingly please. Doesn't synch up with raid CDs at all.
    Meciel - Mage - Defer Death - Greybriar
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  13. #28
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    Fire Starter: Sounds like this ability makes Countdown a 100% spamable instant cast ability. Is there going to be a stack limit or how will this function?

    I like most of the changes, but hard casting 2 second fireballs in pvp is just asking for trouble. The longer the cast times the more prone you are to interupt, cc, debilitates ect which become more and more powerful the longer the cast time. By that I mean a simple 2 sec stun 1.9 seconds into casting your fireball means there is a 5.9 second window before your first damage effect takes place.

    A proper melee will have me dead before I cast my first fireball.

    Additionally, why does every soul now focus on 'this ability benefits from SP contribution by an additional XX%'? All it does is make SC more and more useless as the b@stard stat that nobody wants on their gear. Why not have an ability that increases SC contribution by 30%, which means if you have 20% base crit rating it would have an effective 26% chance, but if you geared out with SC and had a 40% base crit it would now be 52% ect? Obviously adjust % as necessary. This gives people an option of what gear would be best for them based on what souls they like to play instead of a generic stack CP to max and then load up on SP and avoid SC like the biblical plague.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by evantide View Post
    I'm already accounting for most of that. The extra SP/Crit isn't valid since even current pyro can get that once the SC changes come out. Unless the base on fireball goes up, the new iteration won't be comparable to old evne with all the benefits.

    Also the rotation pretty much became Fireball -> Filler instead of fireball filler filler. No real big thing except trying to stack 5 stacks of Fury for Fusiliade to hit like a truck.
    1. The current fire spell doesnt get an extra 15% SP scaling which works with all your other +SP +Int talents. Note that the reason why warlock got so much better since the last warlock buffs is also partly due to increased SP contribution. You might be underestimating the potential of talents that "increase SP scaling".

    2. The new fireball will only consume 1 single stack so you dont have to really be alternating fireballs you can pretty much do up to 5 "fillers" then spam 5 fireballs if you wish. Aegis had a forced filler filler fireball mechanics which is not nearly as flexible with a jerky filler-filler-filler-fireball when certain conditions meet.

    3. Aegis only had 5% chance to proc a cinder burst with 10s internal cd (this is buffed majorly due to more sp and increased SP scaling) and now with the new pyro armor you have have to 30% chance to proc a cinder burst, and currently unless Kervik fed up has no stated ICD. Thats SIX (6) times more cinderburst and thats assuming Aegis proc'ed a cinder every 10 seconds...

    4. You will have more countdowns.

    No one will really know, and if the new pyromancer's armor has no or shorter internal cd, its will be a major buff to pyromancer overall.

    No idea why you are calling an end of the world (pyro is already pretty bad anyways geez guy) when rough napkin math shows such a big increase overall.

  15. #30
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Countdown: it's not spammable, you will only be able to have 1 Countdown on a target (it will grey out if there's already a stack of Countdown). This is mostly a target-switching QOL change, especially for PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by evantide View Post
    The problem is that this build iteration doesn't seem fun at all unless there's huge numbers backing it up. On my first look, all I can see is that it changes one of our most mobile specs into a turret while taking out a huge chunk of its burst and making the rotation even easier. Already, that's 3 strikes against the spec.

    That on top of it gutting one of the support specs means I'm against it unless I can see huge returns.
    On the contrary it paves the way for deeper Archon becoming viable again for Spark Shower and Burning Purpose. That will only require a few damage tweaks to Archon's abilities (which may not even be necessary -- and remember that this does nothing to Harbichon).

    You're newer but this is not unlike what Pyromancer used to look like. You can expect the damage from Fulminate to be significantly increased now that it doesn't have to be balanced around Heat Wave's CD reset. Fusillade is obviously very powerful as well. All the problems with target-switching are eliminated. This brings the class back to a gameplay where positioning yourself and making intelligent decisions on where to move and when influences your performance. People who play smart put up higher numbers.

    As for PvP... traditionally Pyro was a soul that, if allowed to freely cast, would absolutely destroy anything (yes, it out-damaged melee classes). Its primary weakness was mobility, which is why it had (and still has) myriad CC abilities. This new design brings it back to that sort of gameplay. Between Flicker, and then Flowing Sands or Ride the Wind, there's plenty of mobility options available to us.

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