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Thread: A Pre-emptive Tank spec thread

  1. #31
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carbondioxide View Post
    Total HP is most important factor in EH calculating for SL and IMO access to power drain is too important to miss out on if they allow it. So archon/lock or archon/chloro depending which gives more health.

    The radiant spores version is intriguing to me as well, Arb might be the new agro king for tanks in 2.7.
    Quote Originally Posted by evantide View Post
    Only with misdirection up. Aggro sucks otherwise.
    Also keep in mind that unlike Justicars, mages will not have overhealing threat.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    Also keep in mind that unlike Justicars, mages will not have overhealing threat.
    That salvation threat is freaking huge for clerics. I was testing threat without misdirection and our start-up AE aggro as well as ST aggro are pretty weak relative to other classses.

    Rogues have that AE as well as port aggro. Clerics have salvation and hammers. I don't know about warriors since I don't play them, but their skills have large aggro multipliers. Either way, all the other classes have powerful and/or consistent passive threat on low CDs.

    From number crunching, our primary ST aggro skill has the same final multiplier as Cleric hammer, but ours does 1/3 the damage while costing 15 charge a cast.

    Our AE skills require a target to cast off of while our primary spam, eats charge.

    Our passive threat is also almost non-existent.

    So yeah, kind of forced into using a 1 minute CD in order to gain initial aggro, which means your raid team has to work with you.
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  3. #33
    Rift Chaser VolsalexR's Avatar
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    So, Icy Vortex now is 16 pts and I can throw 11 SC/4 Harb hybridization for my 61 Pyro in garbage basket?mmm...
    I have several a bit off-top questions:
    1) High Voltage now reduces damage only or it still increases damage too?
    2) What changes to Rune Shield mentioned above were implemented?

    Back to topic - what about PVP Arbiter SC hybrid a-la 40/36 or 39/37 for more damage? SC has now damage reduction, Icy Vortex and Storm Guard which is both a powerful anti-melee reflect, Electrify builder and damage reduction? Plus SC has Ice Shear that will boost all Arbiter's damaging abilities too.
    Last edited by VolsalexR; 03-12-2014 at 12:39 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolsalexR View Post
    2) What changes to Rune Shield mentioned above were implemented?
    Rune Shield now like actually only works in PvP instead of like just saying it only works in PvP but still works in PvE.

    Back to topic - what about PVP Arbiter SC hybrid a-la 40/36 or 39/37 for more damage? SC has now damage reduction, Icy Vortex and Storm Guard which is both a powerful anti-melee reflect, Electrify builder and damage reduction? Plus SC has Ice Shear that will boost all Arbiter's damaging abilities too.
    Unless they change dom, 61arb/15dom is the way to go, you won't to much damage but the other side won't be doing anything, so it evens out.

  5. #35
    Rift Chaser VolsalexR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    Rune Shield now like actually only works in PvP instead of like just saying it only works in PvP but still works in PvE.



    Unless they change dom, 61arb/15dom is the way to go, you won't to much damage but the other side won't be doing anything, so it evens out.
    I think troll build of 58 Arb / 18 Dom will be better, you get instant squirell (to 2 at once with Synergy crystal) which you can also boost not to break immediately (you have lots of hp so the threshold of breaking will be quite high), Transference and Deny, I doubt any 61 tank pt ability can match that (for a build whose purpose is to negate/disable people).
    Last edited by VolsalexR; 03-12-2014 at 02:33 PM.

  6. #36
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    There's still alot of fiddle-room with arbiter sub-souls which offers an absolutely huge variety of utility compared to, well, any other tank.

    Like enough in chloro for natural conversion... which for some bosses is essentially a free full heal / extra CD, with a side bonus of talent points in improved radiant spores and an instant bloom.

    Or enough in Dom for the reflect, mana wrench, arresting presence.

    archon for cleanse / snare

    necro for purge

    Harb for quite a bit more dodge/parry (Yes, evasion tank is bad, but in full T2 gear you're still looking at 90k+ hp. Evasion tanks were bad because they had tissue paper defense, which arbiter isn't.)

    Or, if you don't need any of that, warlock for the standard +HP tank and a side of 10% self heal.
    Last edited by MoonfireSpam; 03-14-2014 at 01:26 AM.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonfireSpam View Post
    Harb for quite a bit more dodge/parry (Yes, evasion tank is bad, but in full T2 gear you're still looking at 90k+ hp. Evasion tanks were bad because they had tissue paper defense, which arbiter isn't.)
    Many people have an idiot dogma about evasion tanking.
    Yes, as you already said, you need enough base survivability to simply take some hits, but there are plenty of situations where high evasion at a minial loss of max eHP is well worth it.
    * Tanking many adds. (Proteus, Volan, Salvarola)
    * Outright dodging "bad stuff" (Debuffs on Thraxx, Kyzan)
    Last edited by lgw; 03-14-2014 at 03:21 AM.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Many people have an idiot dogma about evasion tanking.
    Yes, as you already said, you need enough base survivability to simply take some hits, but there are plenty of situations where high evasion at a minial loss of max eHP is well worth it.
    * Tanking many adds. (Proteus, Volan, Salvarola)
    * Outright dodging "bad stuff" (Debuffs on Thraxx, Kyzan)
    It's not an idiot dogma...
    RNG is a terrible thing. Relying on RNG to stay alive is bad and always will be.
    This is the reason why evasion is bad. Not because tank had tissue paper defense.
    Mostly all attacks from bosses/adds are not dodgeable/parryable on top of it.
    While if you have higher effective health, reduce the RNG of not dodging everything.

    When overgearing the content, obviously it doesn't matter... But same can be said about evasion... it doesn't matter when overgearing the content if you are gonna use evasion. So why bother with having an evasion spec when you can simply use your max eHP spec to do the job? If you are gonna have a second spec, get more DPS instead of more evasion.
    Last edited by Snap; 03-14-2014 at 10:17 AM.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    It's not an idiot dogma...
    RNG is a terrible thing. Relying on RNG to stay alive is bad and always will be.
    Yes it is. Because it's absolute, or black/white if you want.
    People don't understand trade offs, healing CDs, specific encounter requirements and all the other things being a factor of what is good, what isn't.

    So yes, it is an idiot dogma.
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  10. #40
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    It's not an idiot dogma...
    RNG is a terrible thing. Relying on RNG to stay alive is bad and always will be.
    This is the reason why evasion is bad. Not because tank had tissue paper defense.
    Mostly all attacks from bosses/adds are not dodgeable/parryable on top of it.
    While if you have higher effective health, reduce the RNG of not dodging everything.

    When overgearing the content, obviously it doesn't matter... But same can be said about evasion... it doesn't matter when overgearing the content if you are gonna use evasion. So why bother with having an evasion spec when you can simply use your max eHP spec to do the job? If you are gonna have a second spec, get more DPS instead of more evasion.
    Yes, relying on RNG to stay alive is terrible.

    No, that is not why evasion tanking is bad. Evasion tanking is bad because traditional evasion tanks gets shredded like a wet paper bag when they DO get hit. You take base 61 Arbiter, which in itself is vaguely like a rogue tank, and it already comes with high hp, high armor, deflect, and mitigation shields that are active at nearly all times. The extra 10% HP is not going to 'mitigate' anything, where as the extra 20% dodge and 10% parry on top of your ~10% dodge and parry is probably going to avoid a whole lot more damage. And if you do get hit? So what?

    You are also incorrect in your assessment of being unable to avoid boss mechanics through dodge / parry / resists. There aren't a whole lot of them, but the ones you can do grant you a huge advantage. Plus autoattacks are a sizable portion of a tank's incoming damage, and you can most definitely avoid those.

    It would be a situational tank build that may be viable depending on the nature of future content. To summarily dismiss it is silly.

    There's nothing comparable in a rogue to draw a parallel. Bladedancer subsoul grants us 5% passive dodge. This is 20% dodge AND 10% parry. If this were available to rogues, I'd use it. Giving up 10% HP talents from bard still keeps me at 94k hp raid buffed.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonfireSpam View Post
    There's nothing comparable in a rogue to draw a parallel. Bladedancer subsoul grants us 5% passive dodge. This is 20% dodge AND 10% parry. If this were available to rogues, I'd use it. Giving up 10% HP talents from bard still keeps me at 94k hp raid buffed.
    Actually 9 Bard / 6 BD was a pretty good build for Kyzan and Salvarola when it still mattered. Well mostly for Sidesteps naturally
    * On Kyzan it would let you reset stacks almost reliably, and still was a very good CD to just pop pre-emptively during Beacon.
    * On Salvarola you had yet another CD to pop during P2, which was 80% of the fight, so you could go with just AOE healing give/take for that whole phase. Plus hey, no hurt in having it again P3 when people screwed interrupts, so the Puri could concentrate on the Lord of Flame tank.

    For Arbiter I'd probably still grab 5 SC and just 20% dodge, but in the end that depends on the particular boss, and both 20% and 30% gonna be very interesting.
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  12. #42
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    So I did some looking over the souls last night within the context of pure tanking, and the only stuff I found useful were Warlock charge/endurance and Harb 30% avoidance. I don't think chloro will compare bc of the reasons already stated in this forum.

    Now, the endurance in lock is good, but will the charge be necessary? Recharging and overheated both last for 20 seconds with a, what, 1 or 2 minute cd reset? Seems to me there will definitively be sitting on charge waiting for the timer.

    Perhaps lock is the better subspec at lower levels of gear?

  13. #43
    Rift Disciple superhbman's Avatar
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    Default Brainstorming DPS-oriented Arbiter

    I'm trying to think of a DPS-oriented Arbiter spec with a goal of emulating the Warrior's 41 Warlord / 35 Paladin spec. Going off purely by Magelo's calculator, I'm thinking of this - 44 Arb / 28 Harb / 4 Chloro.

    If the tooltips are accurate, that means that the Arbiter uses slashing attacks (Galvanic Strike, Jolting Wave, Shattered Reflection, etc). Assuming that it will proc Eldritch Gift, I thought of going into Harb and picking up the avoidance talents.

    Main spam attack will be Galvanic Strike, due to Arcane Ward.

    I don't know how Arbiter will gain charge though, and I don't gave access to PTS (nor am I interested, heh). Eldritch Armour + Vile Spores for some charge gain, plus INT for more parry thus more avoidance.

    I know I'm working off close to no information, but I hope you can appreciate my intention. Hoping to stir a discussion at least.

    ---

    Also, what about the Arbiter's weapon? Are we going to be swinging a sword / dagger / staff and whacking mobs with it? Would be kinda funny to see / hear a mage whacking mobs with the woody sound of the staff.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by superhbman View Post
    I don't know how Arbiter will gain charge though, and I don't gave access to PTS (nor am I interested, heh). Eldritch Armour + Vile Spores for some charge gain, plus INT for more parry thus more avoidance.
    Looks like Arb Melee builds Charge, while ranged burns charge.

  15. #45
    Prophet of Telara Frailaq's Avatar
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    Highest pure HP variant would seem to be 11 Lock / 2 Chon. Can't think where to put the last two points other than possibly Soul Fire for an additional 2% damage (Power Drain isn't worth much due to needing charge for Arbiter stuff but could potentially be useful in some circumstances). The real question is whether 5 points into SC for 5% damage reduction is worth more than the 98 End you gain from 2 Chon and the loss of Draining Bolt.

    Chloro variant doesn't appear to be as useful as I'd initially thought it would be for a couple of reasons: 1) there aren't any life/death abilities in Arbiter so to maintain NA proc you'd have to use stuff live WV or RS 2) healing reduction on non-Arb abilities really hurts WV and RS (also hurts Draining Bolt but not as badly) and 3) lack of End just to gain some some avoidance stats... doesn't seem like a good idea for 90% of encounters.

    Dom variant does look interesting. You still lose a lot of End but you gain a constant 10% Int that doesn't require you to keep a proc up (like Natural Awareness does). The other possibilities include Reflect (which you can talent down as far as 10s CD), an interrupt, a debuff that gives 60% chance to interrupt up to 5 times which could be useful as backup, an AoE silence (yes, please?), and spammable squirrel (even if you can't get instant cast without going 16 points into Dom). Definitely not going to be the common mage tank build but it looks a lot more useful than the Chloro variant.

    Harb variant is... odd. It seems like it should mesh quite well but in reality you gain far less than you'd think. Eldritch Armor looks appealing until you realize that Arbiter has 0 cast time abilities. Charged Blade sounds useful but then you realize you're going to have a fun enough time managing charge as is without trying to throw that into the mix. SP does look very useful and again, the small amount of avoidance you gain seems petty compared to what the lock/chon variant or even the lock/SC variant does for you.
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