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Thread: Trion, pls think about this when you do 3.0

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post

    Also all melee is not created equal. Harb is the only melee soul mages have access to but Warlock, Inquis, even pyro, if equally geared and played can out dps NB, BD, RB, Druid. So essentially you have one soul per calling that is better than mage and cleric ranged dps.

    .
    Either is all ranged, it is misleading and a little far fetched to say only one soul per calling is better than mage and cleric ranged dps without even mentioning what rogue and warrior are capable of at ranged and melee

    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post

    As I said if Trion designed content differently...no problem...however they design the content the way they do and to make melee worth it under these circumstances it has to do more than ranged in a static dummy environment.
    the way content is designed can change and melee is not just better in a static dummy environment. it is significantly better in encounters. all of them.

    you say it is better/easier to be at ranged but that is only true due to Trions melee > ranged philosophy turning ranged casters into mindless instaspam bots.

    people talk like ranged never have to move or do mechanics or suffer disconnects and it is just not true. Somewhat ironically, despite the cries from players who have a vested interest in keeping the melee > ranged status quo, that it is easier and better to be at ranged we spend a lot of time stacked in melee on the bosses butt.

    Melee > ranged has tossed an entire play style out the window. It doesn't matter if you just don't like to play melee, if you want to get the best out of your class that is what you are going to do.

    It has been detrimental to class balance and soul design without providing any real benefit in terms of fun and gameplay unless you are one of those people who has been crying for 2 years that melee should do the most dps because melee duh.

    a balanced raid force should not just mean having an even mix of each class, it should also mean having a good mix of ranged and melee dps. Instead we get a situation where balanced is as much melee dps as you can get
    Quote Originally Posted by Frailaq View Post

    tl;dr - Trion should do this: Melee = Turret Ranged > Mobile Ranged

  2. #32
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    Gruntled...first the argument was melee>than ranged in current content with no nuance. My point is name specifically the melee builds on ST fights that are behind ST mage and cleric ranged dps because the blanket statement is FALSE. Is the only mage melee spec better IN THIS content than mage ranged? Yep. If we look at the history of trion however this will not last.

    ranged has been, in terms of fight mechanics, easier in Rift since launch. One raid zone melee was use able the next almost entirely useless. Ranged being "spam bots" is not new. Hell there are Pyros on these forums who actually talk about how they enjoyed being turrets o.O.

    You ignore the reality of the game mechanics...I noted the fights where ranged is better (yes largely in GA). I also noted the rest of the current fights where ranged would just be straight up better than melee without melee having more dps.

    You also try to twist what I am saying into something else. I am saying that if melee does not do more dps then the mechanics I note make ranged preferable...period. I am not saying they just do more on the dummy. This game's class mechanics and encounter mechanics simply do not mesh well period. The dynamic you are complaining about was designed specifically to address this problem.

    Your last bit is absolutely correct and guess what...in past content it was the shoe being on the other foot...everyone who could be ranged were ranged and those who could not be ranged were basically sitting on the thumbs for entire phases on encounters doing little to nothing (warriors on Maelforge come to mind.). It seems that either you don't have any experience with the way Trion has historically done things in Rift, or don't give a flying fudge because you don't like melee. Not sure which it is but in the end your plan would simply make it so melee would not be used. Some people still do used range. It is easier mechanics wise most of the time, especially in progression, so it makes it easier on the raid as a whole since dps checks can still be met. Melee if it did universally =/< damage than ranged would NOT be used because mechanics wise they more often make the fights more difficult for the raid. Your lack of addressing the fight mechanics in this tier though leads me to lean towards bias.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Gruntled...first the argument was melee>than ranged in current content with no nuance. My point is name specifically the melee builds on ST fights that are behind ST mage and cleric ranged dps because the blanket statement is FALSE. Is the only mage melee spec better IN THIS content than mage ranged? Yep. If we look at the history of trion however this will not last.

    ranged has been, in terms of fight mechanics, easier in Rift since launch. One raid zone melee was use able the next almost entirely useless. Ranged being "spam bots" is not new. Hell there are Pyros on these forums who actually talk about how they enjoyed being turrets o.O.


    You ignore the reality of the game mechanics...I noted the fights where ranged is better (yes largely in GA). I also noted the rest of the current fights where ranged would just be straight up better than melee without melee having more dps.

    You also try to twist what I am saying into something else. I am saying that if melee does not do more dps then the mechanics I note make ranged preferable...period. I am not saying they just do more on the dummy. This game's class mechanics and encounter mechanics simply do not mesh well period. The dynamic you are complaining about was designed specifically to address this problem.

    Your last bit is absolutely correct and guess what...in past content it was the shoe being on the other foot...everyone who could be ranged were ranged and those who could not be ranged were basically sitting on the thumbs for entire phases on encounters doing little to nothing (warriors on Maelforge come to mind.). It seems that either you don't have any experience with the way Trion has historically done things in Rift, or don't give a flying fudge because you don't like melee. Not sure which it is but in the end your plan would simply make it so melee would not be used. Some people still do used range. It is easier mechanics wise most of the time, especially in progression, so it makes it easier on the raid as a whole since dps checks can still be met. Melee if it did universally =/< damage than ranged would NOT be used because mechanics wise they more often make the fights more difficult for the raid. Your lack of addressing the fight mechanics in this tier though leads me to lean towards bias.
    You mention that the blanket statement of melee > ranged is false because pyro can outperform certain melee builds. And you would be correct, the absolute best ranged souls in the game can out perform the absolute worst melee souls in the game. But what exactly does that prove? -Nothing. If you're going to compare then lets compare apples to apples, ranged best vs melee best. Or even melee worst versus something like elementalist for example.

    You keep mentioning Trions 'history of flip floping' nonsense. SL has been out for nearly 1.5 years, which in terms of a games lifespan is a very very long time, and in that time melee has reigned far supreme. It's not as if every 3 months a new zone comes out that radically changes the game setup. There have been 6 new raids, and 1 revamped raid, and all of them are overall extremely melee friendly.

    Plus, if you so choose to consistantly go back to your fail argument of 'oh well in ID days'.... First, ID progression ended 2yrs ago, get over it and move on with life. But also in ID days warriors did not have a ranged soul option, so the ranged vs melee was a legitimate concern, however now they do so even if trion throws out 1 or 2 fights where it is not worth the effort to melee, everyone still has a legitimate way to contribute.

    You also mention several times the fail logic of dps being tuned around dummies...and you're right!@ Dummies have no mechanics, and is just straight burn. However, even when you factor in movements and disconnects and everything else, melee is so far ahead in a raid environment. Is it really any wonder that the class with the most melee soul options to pick from (warrior) is also the most rediculously OP when it comes to raid dps?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexare View Post
    You mention that the blanket statement of melee > ranged is false because pyro can outperform certain melee builds. And you would be correct, the absolute best ranged souls in the game can out perform the absolute worst melee souls in the game. But what exactly does that prove? -Nothing. If you're going to compare then lets compare apples to apples, ranged best vs melee best. Or even melee worst versus something like elementalist for example.

    You keep mentioning Trions 'history of flip floping' nonsense. SL has been out for nearly 1.5 years, which in terms of a games lifespan is a very very long time, and in that time melee has reigned far supreme. It's not as if every 3 months a new zone comes out that radically changes the game setup. There have been 6 new raids, and 1 revamped raid, and all of them are overall extremely melee friendly.

    Plus, if you so choose to consistantly go back to your fail argument of 'oh well in ID days'.... First, ID progression ended 2yrs ago, get over it and move on with life. But also in ID days warriors did not have a ranged soul option, so the ranged vs melee was a legitimate concern, however now they do so even if trion throws out 1 or 2 fights where it is not worth the effort to melee, everyone still has a legitimate way to contribute.

    You also mention several times the fail logic of dps being tuned around dummies...and you're right!@ Dummies have no mechanics, and is just straight burn. However, even when you factor in movements and disconnects and everything else, melee is so far ahead in a raid environment. Is it really any wonder that the class with the most melee soul options to pick from (warrior) is also the most rediculously OP when it comes to raid dps?
    How much content has been out in the 1.5 years? Time means nothing.

    We get it...some people hate melee...the problem is the suggestions being made to make ranged and melee = would simply result in ranged being THE spec to run in raids. I keep people saying the balance is skewed too much towards melee, earlier I granted this may be true...FOR NOW...but it is interesting how people keep avoiding that a simple switch to balanced dps would result in melee being the red headed step child again.

    One has to at least appreciate the tenacity of the hypocrisy.

  5. #35
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    This thread is damn near derailed as it is, so will only say this as regards to melee vs. ranged.

    The more complex the rotation, the more DPS potential.

    That is all. Who gives a (EXPLETIVE) if you are dancing a jig at 30m or sniffing a bosses undergarments?

  6. #36
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    Because dancing with the mob while dancing with a rotation is more difficult than just dancing with a rotation?

  7. #37
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    fights have become more melee friendly and at the same time more range unfriendly than ever.
    that itself isnt enough, melee receive a big bonus on dps as well.
    the whole melee>range argument comes from a time pre-SL where most fights were melee unfriendly.
    this has been changed but not the melee>range crap.

    when you look at the mage trees its obvious that trion had them as range dps in mind.
    therefore harbinger should be a solo/pvp spec and not our best dps!

    when you look at the cleric trees, you can see that trion had them as healers in mind.
    so why not nerf all the cleric healing trees so they only be useful as defilers?
    you say thats nonsense?

    but exactly that happened to the mages, they are only useful as harbs now, all the range dps is useless.
    its like killing the main purpose of a calling!

    i just hope trion will fix this with 3.0 and make us competitive again in our own way without having to play like a warrior.

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    Ranged unfriendly? Wth are you talking about?

    Did you see the break down of fights I noted that are ranged friendly and without the additional dps melee would be useless? You are mixing the dps difference with scripts. There are very few fights in SL where ranged dps has a genuine disadvantage (only ones that comes to mind immediately are Reggie and Goloch.). Hell when SL first came out before people had gear a lot of people said "I thought they said SL was going to be more melee friendly, it isn't."

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Ranged unfriendly? Wth are you talking about?
    Pretty sure he's talking about the fact that in most fights, ranged have to move as often as melee do. The fact that they can do so without disconnect doesn't make it any easier because melee are almost always using instant abilities or can channel while moving whereas a lot of ranged specs still have a significant amount of cast time or stand still channels. In other words, the comparison of melee to ranged difficulty is apples to oranges. Melee have to worry about cleaves and suffer dps loss during disconnects while ranged have to worry about moving out of the heavily-increased-in-SL AoE that gets dropped on them so frequently and suffer dps loss during movement if they aren't highly mobile specs.

    IMHO, they should do away with the whole melee>ranged mentality. On a non-moving dummy, a melee should pull the same dps as a turret style ranged dps and both of them should pull more dps than a mobile caster spec. That way, when you throw them in a raid and melee loses dps to disconnects and turret ranged lose dps to movement, the mobile caster spec will pull even and then you have 3 entirely viable play styles to choose from.

    tl;dr - Trion should do this: Melee = Turret Ranged > Mobile Ranged
    Last edited by Frailaq; 01-16-2014 at 11:12 AM.
    Avatar by Rotaken on deviantART.

  10. #40
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    thx Frailaq, couldnt have said it any better!

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frailaq View Post
    Pretty sure he's talking about the fact that in most fights, ranged have to move as often as melee do. The fact that they can do so without disconnect doesn't make it any easier because melee are almost always using instant abilities or can channel while moving whereas a lot of ranged specs still have a significant amount of cast time or stand still channels. In other words, the comparison of melee to ranged difficulty is apples to oranges. Melee have to worry about cleaves and suffer dps loss during disconnects while ranged have to worry about moving out of the heavily-increased-in-SL AoE that gets dropped on them so frequently and suffer dps loss during movement if they aren't highly mobile specs.

    IMHO, they should do away with the whole melee>ranged mentality. On a non-moving dummy, a melee should pull the same dps as a turret style ranged dps and both of them should pull more dps than a mobile caster spec. That way, when you throw them in a raid and melee loses dps to disconnects and turret ranged lose dps to movement, the mobile caster spec will pull even and then you have 3 entirely viable play styles to choose from.

    tl;dr - Trion should do this: Melee = Turret Ranged > Mobile Ranged
    The first part ignores the fact that many of the melee specs suffer during jousting phases as DoTs drop off and INSANELY from target switching as the DoT based melee souls do not have a mechanic like Warlock to essentially transfer their DoTs to a new character.

    The last bit ignores the fact that other callings have ranged souls that are designed with movement in mind and not to be turrets. So you are saying "make all ranged mage ranged" when half the argument here is that people rolled mage for a particular play style. You are essentially saying "if you rolled rogue or cleric (with the changes to Inquis) to be mobile range too bad...now you must conform to OUR paradigm." It seems a tad hypocritical tbh. Complaining that you can't play the way you want and then asking for a change that forces everyone else to play "your" way.

    I do not however think you are intentionally being hypocritical though...so don't get cranky :-)
    I think the issue is that your response, and much of this thread to be honest is limited by having a myopic focus on the mage calling. Once you try to apply the ideas raised here to other callings they break down because the same "standards" do not apply.

    It gets even worse when you look at the fact that Trion has yet to have any consistency when it comes to mechanics as new content is introduced. The class devs and the content devs do NOT talk to each other so having ranged act in only one narrow paradigm (turret) would result in the exact same issue occurring in the future. There would be some tier of content where one HAD to move a lot, ranged dps would go through the freaking floor. Hell we had the issue in the past already. If you look a casters from launch until now they are far more mobile than they ever were. This was done due to demands on the part of the player base as there was content that required a butt ton of movement.

    The ideas put forth here to correct the problem are not applicable to Rift because Rift is simply to complicated for such simplistic answers. You would have to reengineer virtually every soul in terms of play style, then reengineer all of the content...THEN the hardest bit, make sure that content and class devs stay on the same page each time they release new content in order to make sure that their soul reengineering remained stable. The purpose of the current paradigm is to make this flexible essentially to say during progression (a lot of class balance rules break down once you have content over geared)

    "okay in these fights melee is better now BUT we know from looking at our history this will not always be the case, that melee will be sub par"

    it is a essentially the easy way to address a problem the game has had since the first beta in Sept of 2010.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post

    "okay in these fights melee is better now BUT we know from looking at our history this will not always be the case, that melee will be sub par".
    In the last 1.5 years, we have had 6 new raids, and a retooled raid. All of which are very melee friendly. At what point do you start to notice a trend??

    And as for your stellar examples of why ranged is so much easier than melee...

    Zaviel: Standing on the opposite side of the beam has no significant benefit as the waves are not random, you know ahead of time exactly where the waves will be spawning from so there is no reason for you to be anywhere near them to begin with.

    Matriarch: (easier to get pooh to other side of room while maintining dps) the amount of dps that you 'maintain', will be drastically inferior to the amount of dps you would have gained had you been melee. Even leaving from melee range you have more than enough time to get to the entire opposite end of the room.

    Eggtenders: They give you an ability that literally teleports you hundreds of feet. How exactly do you complain that running around from egg to egg is too difficult?

    GA fights: While I wouldn't want more than 2 melee dps on kyzan, every other boss is perfectly fine to melee on. And considering this is a 10man raid, you aren't going to have more than 4-5 dps classes anyway. so the split is essentially 50/50 ranged/melee dps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    On all the fights I note you can of course melee...BUT if dps was equal on a static training dummy, ranged would be ahead period on most of them and on all of them
    Why on earth would you ever want to balance dps around a static training dummy? Dummy parses don't mean anything, and when it comes to a real raid, melee is far superior. 90% of mages don't play harb because they want to, they do it because they have to in order to even somewhat compete with warriors, shaman, sin ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    The first part ignores the fact that many of the melee specs suffer during jousting phases as DoTs drop off and INSANELY from target switching as the DoT based melee souls do not have a mechanic like Warlock to essentially transfer their DoTs to a new character.
    That is one example, but it is the extreme case as the entire soul was designed around those dots from the bottom up. Mage dps isn't just straight fireball fireball fireball burn like it used to be, all of the souls have buffs/debuffs, dots, ect that need to be applied to the mob before maximum dps is achieved. Pyro requires 5 combust stacks, SC needs electrified stacks, necro needs deathly calling stacks ect, all of which take time just like reapplying melee dots takes time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Because dancing with the mob while dancing with a rotation is more difficult than just dancing with a rotation?
    And how many melee rotations require more than lets say 3 buttons for 95% of the rotation? Sure there may be a 1min CD, or a toggle ect, but the vast majority of melee specs are almost brainless. Slightly different when you start talking about specs like defilemancer which literally had no rotation and was a constant game of whack a mole with ~10 buttons all of which were constantly being used and no macro's. Or how about the original SC/ELE which had a rotation that was litterally 2 paragraphs long, and since it revolved around electrified stacks, if you screwed up once your dps plummeted because now your stacks are all wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Hell there are Pyros on these forums who actually talk about how they enjoyed being turrets o.O.
    Correct, most people chose mage because we like to actually CAST spell. I think many mages would agree that we would prefer some turret style hard casting options like we used to have with the 2 second fireball instead of bunny hopping spamming instant cast garbage.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexare View Post
    In the last 1.5 years, we have had 6 new raids, and a retooled raid. All of which are very melee friendly. At what point do you start to notice a trend??

    And as for your stellar examples of why ranged is so much easier than melee...

    Zaviel: Standing on the opposite side of the beam has no significant benefit as the waves are not random, you know ahead of time exactly where the waves will be spawning from so there is no reason for you to be anywhere near them to begin with.

    Matriarch: (easier to get pooh to other side of room while maintining dps) the amount of dps that you 'maintain', will be drastically inferior to the amount of dps you would have gained had you been melee. Even leaving from melee range you have more than enough time to get to the entire opposite end of the room.

    Eggtenders: They give you an ability that literally teleports you hundreds of feet. How exactly do you complain that running around from egg to egg is too difficult?

    GA fights: While I wouldn't want more than 2 melee dps on kyzan, every other boss is perfectly fine to melee on. And considering this is a 10man raid, you aren't going to have more than 4-5 dps classes anyway. so the split is essentially 50/50 ranged/melee dps.



    Why on earth would you ever want to balance dps around a static training dummy? Dummy parses don't mean anything, and when it comes to a real raid, melee is far superior. 90% of mages don't play harb because they want to, they do it because they have to in order to even somewhat compete with warriors, shaman, sin ect.



    That is one example, but it is the extreme case as the entire soul was designed around those dots from the bottom up. Mage dps isn't just straight fireball fireball fireball burn like it used to be, all of the souls have buffs/debuffs, dots, ect that need to be applied to the mob before maximum dps is achieved. Pyro requires 5 combust stacks, SC needs electrified stacks, necro needs deathly calling stacks ect, all of which take time just like reapplying melee dots takes time.



    And how many melee rotations require more than lets say 3 buttons for 95% of the rotation? Sure there may be a 1min CD, or a toggle ect, but the vast majority of melee specs are almost brainless. Slightly different when you start talking about specs like defilemancer which literally had no rotation and was a constant game of whack a mole with ~10 buttons all of which were constantly being used and no macro's. Or how about the original SC/ELE which had a rotation that was litterally 2 paragraphs long, and since it revolved around electrified stacks, if you screwed up once your dps plummeted because now your stacks are all wrong.



    Correct, most people chose mage because we like to actually CAST spell. I think many mages would agree that we would prefer some turret style hard casting options like we used to have with the 2 second fireball instead of bunny hopping spamming instant cast garbage.
    exactly! Couldn't say it better (or nearly this good). I want to cast again And when we cast, and our cast was succesful, the cast should hit harder than an instant. Our DPS should be as good as a meele, because we have both the same rate of interupts/disconnects. If we have to run, our DPS should drop, like the DPS of the Melee drop. Enough said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vexare View Post

    Correct, most people chose mage because we like to actually CAST spell. I think many mages would agree that we would prefer some turret style hard casting options like we used to have with the 2 second fireball instead of bunny hopping spamming instant cast garbage.
    this x 1000
    Quote Originally Posted by Frailaq View Post

    tl;dr - Trion should do this: Melee = Turret Ranged > Mobile Ranged

  15. #45
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    from my understanding all the pyro changes been done to make it useful in pvp, in this case it has to be mobile.
    and the filler filler fireball is just a side-effect of the reduction in aegis proc rate to 3 sec and never been intended.

    just going back to the old turret style dps would make it useless in pvp again.

    the solution would be to make it a turret style dps again with dps similar to melee specs
    and an option of being mobile with the dps of an inq. you have a mobile fallback with lower dps or you do hardcasting fireballs and stuff to be competitive outside of harb. both the pve and the pvp guys would be happy!

    not giving us a competitive range spec to melee would be like not giving clerics a competitive healing spec to chloro, making them playing defiler all the time!

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