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Thread: Suggestion: Burning Fury Adjustments and Improving Synergy Between Mage Souls

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    Default Suggestion: Burning Fury Adjustments and Improving Synergy Between Mage Souls

    Over the last few days, I've been working and crunching numbers with Archy on how Burning Fury can be adjusted with the least impact on existing mage DPS/HPS, and how to further improve synergy of mage souls.

    Nerfing or completely removing Burning Fury will just make 5 Archon or 5 Harbinger the new 8 point pyromancer and that isn't optimal either.

    All the lower tier talents needs to be looked at, and adjusted so that they benefit more than their parent soul.

    -------------------------------

    Here are the objective of the following suggestions:
    * Lessen the impact of mage DPS when Burning Fury is removed
    * Ensure that mage DPS still scale appropriately wth CP, by ensuring that each mage soul has some amount of crit built into it.
    * Pushback reduction and range increase is spread out to more souls, to further reduce the need to spec into pyro specifically for these talent.
    * By making the lower tier talents more generic, we hope to open up more alternatives other than investing into pyro, harb or archon for the various mage specs,

    The suggestion here is made on the basis that the changes Kervik listed http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ml#post4266014 will be deployed.

    Now, for the suggestions!

    -------------------------------

    Stormcaller
    * Gift adjusted to +1% damage, +0.5% aoe damage
    * High Voltage - increase ST damage by 0.5/1/1.5/2/2.5%, and AOE damage by 0.5/1/1.5/2/2.5%
    * Lightning Rod - Pushback prevention affect all spells
    * Charge Atmosphere - Increase AOE damage by 1/2/3% and intelligence by 2/4/6%
    * Tempest Armor - Reduced boost to single target damage to 10%. Increase critical hit chance by 5% as well.
    * Storm Training - Increase critical hit damage/healing by 1/2/3/4/5% as well.
    * Perfect Condition - Reduced to 3/6/10% AOE damage.
    * Storm Shard - Icicle boost reduced to 40/80/120%

    Dominator
    * Gift adjusted to +1% damage, +0.5% aoe damage
    * Clinging Form - Reduce pushback of all damaging abilities as well.
    * Quick Thinking - Increase critical hit chance by 1/2% as well.
    * Pain Armor - Increase critical hit chance by 5% as well.
    * Hasten Reflection - Increase spell power by 2/4/6/8/10% as well.
    * Broken Spirit - Reduced to 3/6% instead.

    Archon
    * Aura master - Reduce pushback of all damaging abilities as well.
    * Wellspring - Increase critical hit chance by 1/2% per active archon aura as well.

    Warlock
    * Gift adjusted to +1% damage, +0.5% DOT damage
    * Magical affinity - Adjusted to be a 3 point talent for 5/10/15% extra charge generation.
    * Improved Void Bolt - Now a 5 point talent. Reduce the cast time of death-base abilities by 5/10/15/20/25%, and other abilities by 1/2/3/4/5%.
    * Lingering Pain - Increase range of non-melee damaging abilities by 2.5/5m as well. Increased range doesn't stack with other passives that increase range.
    * Swift Corruption - Increase critical hit chance of death-based damage abilities by 3/6% as well.
    * Void Decimation - Reduced to 1/2/3/4/5%
    * Improved Draining Bolt - Reduced to 2/4%
    * Consuming Agony - Bonus from DOT affects reduced to 12%

    Harbinger
    * Eldrich armor - Increase critical hit chance by 3% as well.
    * Eldrich power - Increase critical hit chance of Eldrich armor by another 2/4%.
    * Nimble blade - Increase slashing damage by 1/2/3/4/5%, and all damage by 1/2/3/4/5%.
    * Magnetic blade - Increase critical heal/damage by 1/2/3/4/5% instead of improving slashing damage.
    * Combat Mastery - Increase all damage by 1/2/3/4/5%, and SP by 2/4/6/8/10%

    Pyromancer
    * Burning Fury - Reworked. Now a passive that gives 1/2/3% crit.
    * Fiery Resolve - Increase intelligence by 2/3/6% as well.
    * Pyromancer's Aegis - increase critical hit chance by 5% as well.

    Chloromancer
    * Lingering Spores - Increase range of non-melee damaging abilities by 2.5/5m as well. Increased range doesn't stack with other passives that increase range.
    * Living Aegis, Increase critical hit chance by 5% as well.

    Elementalist
    * Velocity - Reworked into a 3 point talent. Reduce cast time of Crystalline Missile by 0.1/0.3/0.5 sec, and their mana cost by 10/20/30%. Cause Crystalline Missile and Volcanic Eruption to increase pet damage by 3/6/10%.
    * Prismatic Armor - Increase critical hit chance by 5% as well
    * Elemental Knowledge - New 2 point talent. Increase intelligence by 4/8%
    * Cycle Buffs - Reduced to 6/12%

    Necromancer
    * Deadly Plague - Reworked into a 3 point talent. Reduce cast time of Plague Bolt by 0.1/0.3/0.5 sec, and mana cost by 10/20/30%.
    * Unholy Tutelage - New 2 point talent. Increase spell power by 3/6%
    * Fresh Grave - Increase your damage by 1/2/3/4/5% as well.
    * Death's Influence - Increase all damage and SP by 1/2/3/4/5%
    * Bone Armor - increase critical hit chance by 5% as well.
    * Symbiote - Reduce bonus to 1/2%.

    ------

    SC and Dom's gift are adjusted to 1% damage/0.5% AOE damage, and in return some talents are adjusted so that their ST damage remains relatively unchanged.

    The same was not done to Necromancer or Elementalist because shifting damage from the pet to the caster to accommodate for any gift adjustments is a far bit more complicated process since pets scale differently from casters. Due to this, we took the alternative of making new talents at the first tier that are stronger compared to similar talents in the other souls to compensate for the lower gifts, but they have a lower max point cap.

    e.g. Necromancer can get 6% sp for 2 points, while you need 3 points in Harbinger to get the same benefit. However you can go 5 points into Harb for 10% sp, while Necro is cap at 6%.

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    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    This is very similar in aim to a number of broader goals I've compiled and sent to Kervik after talking with a number of people. Honestly I trust in his ability to get to that point and he knows what is possible and workable better than we do, but I think the key elements to cushioning the fall from taking out Burning Fury are:

    1. Equalize the soul gifts.
    2. Broaden our options for pushback reduction and range increase.
    3. Simplify and de-specify tier 1-3 talents in the non-Pyro souls.

    As to one specific you listed, I would say that the Chloro tree needs to include a pushback reduction more than a range increase. The range increase is nice but not wholly necessary, whereas pushback is so absolutely required for Chloromancer that removing Burning Fury will not change our optimal spec whatsoever (as Harbinger is completely worthless beyond a 7-point investment).

    I'd also say there's no reason that all pushback redux talents shouldn't be equal, i.e., a two-point investment in the first tier.

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    I think chloromancer should get its only pushback reduction for both damaging and healing spells (current pushbacks dont work for our direct target heal for example). They could make it higher in the tree if they wanted of course since we dont really get our first direct spam till later in the tree. Pushbacks from other souls would be just fine for hybrid chloros however as its usually just an LGV splash bonus anyway.

    I'm actually hoping trion's next soul they make...or even a revamp of a current one, will include +X% heals. I want something that really synergizes with chloro well. I'm just not finding it with the loss of burning fury.

    What would you guys recommend for a 61 chloro subsoul given the following changes, not for utility but to maximize healing output.
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    Sword of Telara utterchaos's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Finella;4276255
    Warlock
    * Swift Corruption - Increase critical hit chance of death-based damage abilities by 3/6% as well.

    Dots should crit more since its damage over time and not burst. What i thought the other day was dark power increases dot damage 15% and crit chance 10% for 5 points.


    Chloromancer
    *NATURAL CORROSION: Should be changed to be 3 points to lower knockback. Vile spores and ruin should be changed to have a dot component without needing talents. Since damage doesn't effect healing directly anymore. And only the first dot tick healed.
    [/QUOTE]

    Would love to see dot ticks work with veils, then Warlock sub soul could be fun for support
    Last edited by utterchaos; 06-05-2013 at 08:59 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finella View Post
    stormcaller
    If the gift bonus is remaining the same but the passive AOE talents are reduced, it will put Stormcaller in an even worse situation DPS wise than it already is.
    I can see why you would want to adjust it to improve synergy, and the gift bonus change is a very good one, but I don't believe it is necessary to lower the AOE damage component of it, given that AOE damage is terrible for Mage single target souls
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Finella View Post
    * Broken Spirit - Reduced to 3/6% instead.
    I don't see a reason to nerf the damage of Dominator abilities by 20%,
    its deep into Dom, and Dom is nowhere close towards ST specs.
    The damage is also necessary for pressure in PvP.
    I just cannot see any reason to nerf Dominator and Stormcaller in such a fashion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Finella View Post
    * Void Decimation - Reduced to 1/2/3/4/5%
    * Improved Draining Bolt - Reduced to 2/4%
    * Consuming Agony - Bonus from DOT affects reduced to 12%
    Again, I fail to see a reason to nerf Warlock damage at all.
    Given Warlock and Pyro are a mages best way of competing with Rogue/Warrior souls in terms of damage capability, and still lag behind a good 10% or more, there isn't any reason to nerf Warlock.
    Quote Originally Posted by Finella View Post
    * Cycle Buffs - Reduced to 6/12%
    No reason to nerf cycle buffs.
    One of the issues with elementalist is ho poorly it scales.
    Hitting it in this manner makes a weak spec even weaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finella View Post
    SC and Dom's gift are adjusted to 1% damage/0.5% AOE damage, and in return some talents are adjusted so that their ST damage remains relatively unchanged.
    But you suggested reducing clinging spirits and reducing several of the AOE damage talents for SC.
    Both of those specs are known for their AOE capability, and I see no reason to nerf their AOE damage output, specially when it comes to Stormcaller .

    I like the other changes, but I don't see any reason to lower the passive talents in Stormcaller, Dom or Warlock.
    Last edited by Katosu; 06-05-2013 at 09:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by utterchaos View Post
    Would love to see dot ticks work with veils, then Warlock sub soul could be fun for support
    Only the first DoT tick accounts towards healing and it is so weak there is no point to it.

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    Sword of Telara utterchaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    Only the first DoT tick accounts towards healing and it is so weak there is no point to it.
    Correct now imagine wither vine, life leech, dark touch, necrosis, atrophy, defile etc all did small amounts of healing per tick. This would be a support spec not a full blown healing spec.

    Support/dps spec: could be something like this
    http://rift.magelo.com/en/soultree#ell5iGEBak8/F8w/fgQ

    It wouldn't be as strong as the current ST warlock/pyro/necro is now because you lose some gift damage taking chloro.

    Notice i posted this:
    Chloromancer
    *NATURAL CORROSION: Should be changed to be 3 points to lower knockback. Vile spores and ruin should be changed to have a dot component without needing talents. Since damage doesn't effect healing directly anymore. And only the first dot tick healed.
    Last edited by utterchaos; 06-05-2013 at 09:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    If the gift bonus is remaining the same but the passive AOE talents are reduced, it will put Stormcaller in an even worse situation DPS wise than it already is.
    I can see why you would want to adjust it to improve synergy, and the gift bonus change is a very good one
    I agree with this. Remember that changing it from .5% ST and 1% AOE to 1%ST and .5%AOE only helps with its synergy ability with other souls and NOT its ST damage at 61 points, because no matter which way you look at it, its a 1.5% bonus to AOE skills, again, either way.

    The skills themselves need more work to help out stormcaller on its own so dont need to be nerfing their AOEs at this point.

    Some possible changes for ST:

    Charged Field: Now with a CD 5 seconds, no longer consumes stacks of electrified.
    Pouring Rain: Self buff, deals additional water damage on water and air attacks (kinda like the opposite of bosun's blessing, but will help for some ST as well)
    Lightning Storm: Now a "drop and go" AOE like hailstorm, no longer needs to be channeled.
    Eye of the Storm: Now also pulls enemies in upon its placement, increased the snare to 60%.
    Lightning Burst: Now also refreshes and spreads Ice Shear on the current target up to 8 other targets. (major help for ST, as no manual refresh of ice shear needed and will always be instant with tempest armor, just cast LB, will also help out AOE too).
    Storm Surge: Now behaves like flame rupture from pyro. It will add a stack of electrified every 2 seconds to the target as well as 8 nearby targets for 10 seconds (larger radius than pyro's though since its an AOE soul). Also deals X damage every time it triggers to the target and to nearby targets.
    Perfect Conditions: now also increases the radius of your AOE spells by 2/4/6 meters.
    Last edited by Xenoheart; 06-05-2013 at 09:38 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    As to one specific you listed, I would say that the Chloro tree needs to include a pushback reduction more than a range increase. The range increase is nice but not wholly necessary, whereas pushback is so absolutely required for Chloromancer that removing Burning Fury will not change our optimal spec whatsoever (as Harbinger is completely worthless beyond a 7-point investment).

    I'd also say there's no reason that all pushback redux talents shouldn't be equal, i.e., a two-point investment in the first tier.
    Actually, this is exactly why we didn't include a suggestion for a pushback talent in chloro.

    We are trying to create a scenario where if you want max LBV output, you ignore souls that grants pushback and take as much int/sp talents that you can, and if you want LGV output, you take the souls with pushback prevention, at a cost of lesser int/sp.

    The SC version is 2 points, the dom version is 3 points with an additional effect, and the pyro version is 3 points. The point that they are tier 1 still stands though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenoheart View Post
    What would you guys recommend for a 61 chloro subsoul given the following changes, not for utility but to maximize healing output.
    For chloro

    5 harb - 10% sp
    10 ele - 5% int, 5% crit

    or

    5 harb - 10% sp
    10 necro - 6% sp

    or

    15 harb - 10% sp, 5% critical heals

    or

    15 ele - 6% int, 5% crit, 5% critical heals

    or

    15 dom - 2% crit, 10% int, 10% sp, pushback

    or

    15 SC - 6% int, pushback, cast reduction, 5% crit heals

    or

    13 pyro - flicker, 6% int, 3% crit, pushback, casttime reduction
    2 necro - 6% sp

    So a great deal of variety there.

    Dots should crit more since its damage over time and not burst. What i thought the other day was dark power increases dot damage 15% and crit chance 10% for 5 points.
    We are trying to maintain generally the same amount of crit the existing specs, and not buff specs.

    Burning fury is about a 10-17% increase depending on ability/gear, and will contribute less than that with more gear. The proposed new burning fury is a flat 3%, and thus Swift Corruption is only 6%.

    Katosu's Stuff
    You need to take a look at the suggestion a bit closer.

    SC will have 61% to all damage, and another 30.5 AOE damage for a total of 61% ST, 91.5% AOE.

    On live, SC is 30.5% to all damage, and another 61% AOE, for a total of 30.5% ST, 91.5 AOE.

    Storm shard, tempest armor and high voltage are adjusted to compensate for the 30% increased ST gifts

    Perfect Condition is nerfed to 3/6/10% from 5/10/15% for a 5% reduction
    Charged Atmosphere is reduced to 1/2/3% from 3/6/10% for a 7% reduction

    In return for 12% reduction, SC is going to get:
    - 6% intelligence
    - 5% crit damage
    - 5% crit

    SC is traditionally a spec that doesn't take burning fury, and since it has a relatively large amount of passive bonus already. The new bonus actually covers the 12% passive reduction.

    It's the same story for the issues you raised regarding warlock, ele and dom too, where some nerfs are done to cover for adjustments to the gifts/lower tier stuff.

    Warlock, going to see +30.5% gifts for void bolt/barrage/draining bolt/consuming agony since those aren't dots, and so related talents are adjusted.

    Dom, getting 10% sp, 7% crit, broken spirit adjusted to compensate

    Ele, the cycle buffs are buffed to 15% by Kervik's suggeston. We suggesting 12% to compensate for the 8% int and 5% crit from our suggestion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenoheart View Post
    I agree with this. Remember that changing it from .5% ST and 1% AOE to 1%ST and .5%AOE only helps with its synergy ability with other souls and NOT its ST damage at 61 points, because no matter which way you look at it, its a 1.5% bonus to AOE skills, again, either way.

    The skills themselves need more work to help out stormcaller on its own so dont need to be nerfing their AOEs at this point.

    Some possible changes for ST:

    Charged Field: Now with a CD 5 seconds, no longer consumes stacks of electrified.
    Pouring Rain: Self buff, deals additional water damage on water and air attacks (kinda like the opposite of bosun's blessing, but will help for some ST as well)
    Lightning Storm: Now a "drop and go" AOE like hailstorm, no longer needs to be channeled.
    Eye of the Storm: Now also pulls enemies in upon its placement, increased the snare to 60%.
    Lightning Burst: Now also refreshes and spreads Ice Shear on the current target up to 8 other targets. (major help for ST, as no manual refresh of ice shear needed and will always be instant with tempest armor, just cast LB, will also help out AOE too).
    Storm Surge: Now behaves like flame rupture from pyro. It will add a stack of electrified every 2 seconds to the target as well as 8 nearby targets for 10 seconds (larger radius than pyro's though since its an AOE soul). Also deals X damage every time it triggers to the target and to nearby targets.
    Perfect Conditions: now also increases the radius of your AOE spells by 2/4/6 meters.
    The AOE talents aren't reduced due to the gift changes. It's reduced to compensate for the suggested changes to lower tier SC/Dom/etc... so that relative power is maintained on a soul by soul basis compared to live.

    Yes, SC needs a buff to be viable. Same for Harbinger's ST damage and other issue, but the focus of this thread is to minimize the effect of a burning fury nerf on existing mage DPS/HPS, and to open up options for other subsouls other than harb/pyro/archon with current balance in mind.

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    Sword of Telara utterchaos's Avatar
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    We are trying to maintain generally the same amount of crit the existing specs, and not buff specs.

    Burning fury is about a 10-17% increase depending on ability/gear, and will contribute less than that with more gear. The proposed new burning fury is a flat 3%, and thus Swift Corruption is only 6%.

    You:
    3 + 6 = 9% which is less then 10% mention
    mine:
    3 + 10% = 13% which is close to the average between 10 and 17%.

    So i don't think my suggestion was some massive buff being a 4% difference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finella View Post
    Actually, this is exactly why we didn't include a suggestion for a pushback talent in chloro.

    We are trying to create a scenario where if you want max LBV output, you ignore souls that grants pushback and take as much int/sp talents that you can, and if you want LGV output, you take the souls with pushback prevention, at a cost of lesser int/sp.
    That's really rather a pointless limitation, and there's already plenty of that given we have to use 61 points. If I want to spec Consumption out of Necro, well, why not? The strength of Chloro is that it can be either a tank or AOE healer and swap seamlessly on the fly. Stratifying the role a Chloro spec can perform based on pushback detracts from that significantly and for absolutely no good reason.

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    Ascendant Xenoheart's Avatar
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    To me its not a great variety for chloro. The following are the only viable options with your suggestions:

    15 dom - 2% crit, 10% int, 10% sp, pushback

    or

    15 SC - 6% int, pushback, cast reduction, 5% crit heals

    or

    13 pyro - flicker, 6% int, 3% crit, pushback, casttime reduction
    2 necro - 6% sp
    A chloro lacking pushback reduction suffers quite a bit in healing if their spells are constantly getting pushback. Also the following pushback reductions would do nothing for our ST heals. Sent gets a healing pushback reduction but currently chloro has none even with the above combos.

    EDIT: as the above poster mentioned, these would be necessary for AOE healing. Vile spores pushback is baaaaad. The other combos are better for tank healing, where pushback isn't necessary....I think this is gonna push the self synergy with chloro kinda out of wack having seperate specs for tank heals and raid heals even at 61 points.

    The only way around this is if chloro gets its own, then you can put chloro with ANY spec you want freely to make it a support or solo spec.
    Last edited by Xenoheart; 06-05-2013 at 10:05 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finella View Post

    Storm shard, tempest armor and high voltage are adjusted to compensate for the 30% increased ST gifts

    Perfect Condition is nerfed to 3/6/10% from 5/10/15% for a 5% reduction
    Charged Atmosphere is reduced to 1/2/3% from 3/6/10% for a 7% reduction

    In return for 12% reduction, SC is going to get:
    - 6% intelligence
    - 5% crit damage
    - 5% crit

    SC is traditionally a spec that doesn't take burning fury, and since it has a relatively large amount of passive bonus already. The new bonus actually covers the 12% passive reduction.
    I am not sure that would cover the 12% pasive damage reduction given that many of the bonuses from electrify and ice shear are multipliers.
    The better the base passive multipliers, the better than Stormcaller should scale over time.
    Furthermore, let us assume that the increases to crit and crit damage and intelligence do make up for the 12% loss on all it AOE, it would still be far, far too low below the other AOE specs to be worth using, and would not address the problem

    Of course given that you are simply trying to even things out, I can see the logic behind it.
    If anything, I would suggest simply leaving the passives alone, and seeing if it brings stormcaller up to the level of other AOE specs.
    Even if it does end up higher than other AOE specs, it does setup more slowly than them and so it is acceptable given the ramp up time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finella View Post

    It's the same story for the issues you raised regarding warlock, ele and dom too, where some nerfs are done to cover for adjustments to the gifts/lower tier stuff.

    Warlock, going to see +30.5% gifts for void bolt/barrage/draining bolt/consuming agony since those aren't dots, and so related talents are adjusted.

    Dom, getting 10% sp, 7% crit, broken spirit adjusted to compensate
    Fair enough regarding the 10%S bonus.
    As for Warlock, I would be all right with it getting buffed.
    Of course other ranged DPS specs should be getting buffed to because at the moment, melee specs; except for mage; are so far ahead of them that if you are not running melee, then you're not really doing the best you can for a raid.

    Mechanics exempting such as Goloch and a few others.

    Ele, the cycle buffs are buffed to 15% by Kervik's suggeston. We suggesting 12% to compensate for the 8% int and 5% crit from our suggestion.[/QUOTE]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finella View Post
    Warlock, going to see +30.5% gifts for void bolt/barrage/draining bolt/consuming agony since those aren't dots, and so related talents are adjusted.

    Dom, getting 10% sp, 7% crit, broken spirit adjusted to compensate
    I would suggest reducing the base damage of these spells by 15%. Then leave void decimation as 2/4/6/8/10%. This would I think retain the current flavor of these spells being buffed by how many dots you have active. Overall I think this would still end about the same as things stand now.

    I like the 10% sp in dom. I have been perplexed for quite a while why harb was the only place to get +sp% somewhere low in our trees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenoheart View Post
    I think chloromancer should get its only pushback reduction for both damaging and healing spells (current pushbacks dont work for our direct target heal for example). They could make it higher in the tree if they wanted of course since we dont really get our first direct spam till later in the tree. Pushbacks from other souls would be just fine for hybrid chloros however as its usually just an LGV splash bonus anyway.

    I'm actually hoping trion's next soul they make...or even a revamp of a current one, will include +X% heals. I want something that really synergizes with chloro well. I'm just not finding it with the loss of burning fury.
    Give chloro a reduced pushback for heals/damaging spells of 33/66/100% in either Raised by Nature (bc of being a tough sob) or in Nature's Swiftness. Would also be nice if Nature's Swiftness would decrease cast time of Vile Spores by 8/16/24%.

    As for what to pair chloro with? I love these ideas for reworking the soul gifts but am still puzzled why no soul other than chloro has a +heal% per soul point. As long as it remains like this, there will be practically no viable chloro healer builds of less than 61 pts.

    I would suggest that warlock, harbringer + archon get a +0.5% heal bonus per soul point. For warlock this would require an adjustment of the base heals provided by draining bolt, life leach and warlock armor to compensate so they don't become op.

    About improved mage armor, I would adjust this to what it used to be (I think). Let it buff spell power by 2/4/6/8/10% when a mage armor is active instead of buffing damage directly. This way, it would also contribute to healing builds that wanted to go this high into warlock.

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