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Thread: New Essences on PTS and their procs

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    Default New Essences on PTS and their procs

    So first up I went and did some better testing on the Nefarious Shadesource and here's what I found.

    Tested on live
    6 hours 35 minutes
    9078 Natural Healings casted (average of 1 every 2.5 seconds... I was out of mana)
    704 Nefarious Shadesource procs

    5 second ICD!
    15:29:43: [Announce] Archymage gains [Nefarious Shadesource] false
    15:29:48: [Announce] Archymage gains [Nefarious Shadesource] false
    15:29:53: [Announce] Archymage gains [Nefarious Shadesource] false

    ... and this happened a fair bit.... lots of 5 second procs...

    Which means there were 7670 casts where the greater was not on it's ICD.
    Proc rate while not on cooldown is ~9.2%
    Procs off overheals
    Procs off withering vines ticks (have to confirm)

    FOR MAGES

    With 1 Greater in a 20 man raid
    0 sec: 10 * 9.2% to proc on someone = 92% chance to proc on someone that doesn't have it
    5 sec: 10 * 9.2% = 92%
    10 sec: 9 * 9.2% = 83%
    15 sec: 9 * 9.2% = 83%
    Subsequent: 9 * 9.2% = 83%
    Value: 4 * 114 AP/SP * 83% = 378 SP/AP

    2 Greaters
    0 sec: 10 * 9.2% = 92%
    5 sec: 9 * 9.2% = 82%
    10 sec: 8 * 9.2% = 73%
    15 sec: 7 * 9.2% = 64%
    Subsequent sec: 7 * 9.2% = 64%
    Value: (4 * 114 * 83%) + (4 * 114 * 64%) = 670 SP/AP (or 334 per greater)

    3 Greaters
    0 sec: 10 * 9.2% = 92%
    5 sec: 8 * 9.2% = 74%
    10 sec: 7 * 9.2% = 64%
    15 sec: 5 * 9.2% = 46%
    Subsequent sec: 5 * 9.2% = 46%
    Value: (4 * 114 * 83%) + (4 * 114 * 64%) + (4 * 114 * 46%) = 880 SP/AP (or 293 per greater)

    4 Greaters
    0 sec: 10 * 9.2% = 92%
    5 sec: 8 * 9.2% = 74%
    10 sec: 6 * 9.2% = 55%
    15 sec: 4 * 9.2% = 37%
    Subsequent sec: 4 * 9.2% = 37%
    Value: (4 * 114 * 83%) + (4 * 114 * 64%) + (4 * 114 * 46%) + (4 * 114 * 37%) = 1049 SP/AP (or 262 per greater)

    5 Greaters
    0 sec: 10 * 9.2% = 92%
    5 sec: 7 * 9.2% = 64%
    10 sec: 5 * 9.2% = 46%
    15 sec: 2 * 9.2% = 18%
    Subsequent sec: 2 * 9.2% = 18%
    Value: (4 * 114 * 83%) + (4 * 114 * 64%) + (4 * 114 * 46%) + (4 * 114 * 37%) + (4 * 114 * 18%) = 1131 SP/AP (or 226 per greater)


    The other thing I'm not sure of is whether two of the same proc greaters (1 into the Int heavy Relic greater, and 1 into the Wis heavy relic greater), share the same ICD. They'd both be called Nefarious Shadesource, would would they have separate procs. I know they already overwrite each other, which is fine.
    Archy Mage, Face, Prime, Primal Rouge, Rogue, Eric, W, @ Laethys --- Nefarious ---

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    And then I calculated what the procs were worth on the other relic greaters (bear in mind I think I've given them the cleric names)


    Hunt Legend Mender's Greater Sandstone
    Reinforced Stonesource
    Damaging abilities have a chance to increase Spell or Melee Critical Hit by 129 for 20 seconds.
    ~66% uptime, = 85 crit
    Proc value: 28

    Hunt Legend Mender's Greater Rotward
    Malevolent Shadesource
    Damaging abilities have a chance to deal 409 death damage and restore 662 health
    409 damage ~= 100 SP. ~10% proc = 10SP
    Proc value: 10

    Hunt Legend Mender's Rough Greater Rotward
    Nefarious Shadesource
    Healing spells have a chance to increase your targets Attack and Spell Power by 114 for 20 seconds.
    Proc Value: 378 if one in raid

    Hunt Legend Mender's Greater Lifewood
    Demulcent Faesource
    Healing spells have a chance to heal the target for 1910 health over 8 seconds
    Proc value: hard to measure... about 30 I would say


    Hunt Legend Mender's Greater Deepstone
    Illuminated Tidesource
    Healing abilities have a chance to increase Spell Power or Attack Power by 81 for 20 seconds
    66% uptime = 53 SP
    Proc value: 53

    Hunt Legend Mender's Rough Greater Deepstone
    Flowing Tidesource
    Damaging spells have a chance to increase Spell Power by 81 for 20 seconds
    66% uptime = 53 SP
    Proc value: 53

    Hunt Legend Mender's Rough Greater Brimstone
    Charred Flamesource
    Damaging abilities have a chance to increase Critical Hit Power by 103 for 20 seconds.
    66% uptime = 68 CP
    Proc value: 58

    Hunt Legend Mender's Greater Brimstone
    Searing Flamesource
    Damaging abilities have a chance to deal 860 Fire damage immediately and an additional 504 Fire damage over 8 seconds.
    1364 damage ~= 341 SP, 10% proc = 34 SP
    Proc value: 34 (Halve that if you're a chloro)
    Archy Mage, Face, Prime, Primal Rouge, Rogue, Eric, W, @ Laethys --- Nefarious ---

  3. #3
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    the CP bonus from the int / wis relics do not stack, so I would assume procs from these wouldn't either.

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    The biggest question of all though is does it even work with chloro veil heals? current healing procs off relics / wands don't. I highly doubt this will function like you're hoping and you can spread several hundred AP/SP across your whole raid by having your healers with these like with the old RoS skull
    Last edited by vexare; 06-05-2013 at 03:34 AM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Soulshield's Avatar
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    Nefarious Shadesource procs working with chloro veils.

    You should see higher proc chances with higher casttime spells-> procs like Nature`s Touch, Cinderburst and Consuming Agony should not lower this procchance(only basic casttime counts).
    Pyro Fireballs should have a good proc chance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vexare View Post
    the CP bonus from the int / wis relics do not stack, so I would assume procs from these wouldn't either.
    The procs don't need to stack, they can proc on 20 different people.

    Quote Originally Posted by vexare View Post
    The biggest question of all though is does it even work with chloro veil heals? current healing procs off relics / wands don't. I highly doubt this will function like you're hoping and you can spread several hundred AP/SP across your whole raid by having your healers with these like with the old RoS skull
    Yes, they proc off veils, that was the first thing we tested. They function exactly how Archy thinks they do, he's been using them in raid for months. Nefarious Shadesource is BiS even before 2.3
    Nope.

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    Sword of Telara utterchaos's Avatar
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    dumb question: Where do you get Nefarious Shadesource from?

    Is it a rank 5 gh drop?
    I want to see the light leave your eyes
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    Quote Originally Posted by utterchaos View Post
    dumb question: Where do you get Nefarious Shadesource from?

    Is it a rank 5 gh drop?
    It drops from some of the Death Great Hunts, I don't know which ones though. No-one knows the exact ones, if you find out please tell me.
    Nope.

  9. #9
    Sword of Telara utterchaos's Avatar
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    I will set up a few these over the next few days with my guild and let you know.
    I want to see the light leave your eyes
    Feeling your breath on my lips one last time
    I want to see the light leave your eyes.
    Feeling your breath for the last time.
    God rest your soul is mine....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archyface View Post
    S

    The other thing I'm not sure of is whether two of the same proc greaters (1 into the Int heavy Relic greater, and 1 into the Wis heavy relic greater), share the same ICD. They'd both be called Nefarious Shadesource, would would they have separate procs. I know they already overwrite each other, which is fine.
    You should spam copy your char to the PTS to get Venerated and test Archy, there's a good lad!
    Nope.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by utterchaos View Post
    dumb question: Where do you get Nefarious Shadesource from?

    Is it a rank 5 gh drop?

    As Primal mentioned also most of our guildmates dropped them in the Death GHR´s V ... don´t know about lower GHR as we mainly did the big ones. BUT, one of our guild members also dropped one in a common Death Rift in his individual loot window. So obviously you can drop them also from other Death Rifts and not exclusively from the Hunt ones.
    Last edited by BansheeeeWW; 06-05-2013 at 06:53 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    You should spam copy your char to the PTS to get Venerated and test Archy, there's a good lad!
    That would assume I have a Mark of Notoriety!

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulshield View Post
    Nefarious Shadesource procs working with chloro veils.

    You should see higher proc chances with higher casttime spells-> procs like Nature`s Touch, Cinderburst and Consuming Agony should not lower this procchance(only basic casttime counts).
    Pyro Fireballs should have a good proc chance.
    I didnt think this was true so I gave it a little test last night. Unfortunately I only got 90 minutes in before the servers went down.

    Withering Vines
    1666 Casts ~ every 2.5 seconds
    74 Occurrences
    1518 casts while not on ICD
    for a proc rate of: 4.8%

    Also confirmed that the greater does actually proc off the TICKS of withering vines too which is quite tasty.
    Archy Mage, Face, Prime, Primal Rouge, Rogue, Eric, W, @ Laethys --- Nefarious ---

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    I've been using a sigil with the epic and blue shadesources since early progression days of Frozen Tempest.

    The proc rate is very good. They can proc per person for ANY veil tick. So multiple target Corrosive spores while keeping up Withering Vine and doing normal healing = lots of raid sp/ap!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archyface View Post
    So first up I went and did some better testing on the Nefarious Shadesource and here's what I found.

    FOR MAGES
    With 1 Greater in a 20 man raid
    0 sec: 10 * 9.2% to proc on someone = 92% chance to proc on someone that doesn't have it
    5 sec: 10 * 9.2% = 92%
    10 sec: 9 * 9.2% = 83%
    15 sec: 9 * 9.2% = 83%
    Subsequent: 9 * 9.2% = 83%
    Value: 4 * 114 AP/SP * 83% = 378 SP/AP
    Math here is wrong in a few places. For 1 essence the numbers are very close but I think the numbers for multiple essences probably get further and further off from the actual weights they should be.

    If heals tick every 1s then you can figure out how often a refresh happens. You should do this by calculating how often a refresh happens on zero people. A 9.2% proc success chance is a 90.8% proc failure chance.

    (90.8)^10 = 38% chance to fail on everybody, so 62% chance at success.

    A 10*9.2%=92% proc success rate doesn't make sense. Imagine if it was a 10% individual proc chance. Then you'd calculate a 100% chance to proc on the raid. That makes no sense because even with a 10% chance to proc there's no guarantee that it procs on any given heal tick.

    So every second it's a 62% chance to proc something good once the ICD is up. At five seconds it's 62% chance, six seconds is .38*.62, seven seconds is .38*.38*.62. You can weight the odds it happens every second like this and get an average.

    .62*(5sec + 6sec*.38 + 7sec*.38*.38 + ...) = 5.6 seconds.

    What you should do is use this number and do some more maths to figure out the average amount of people at any one second that have a proc. This is a pain because you have to take into account procs on people who have procs already. That actually relates to the second error I saw in your calculations. A proc on someone who already has a proc isn't worthless.

    "15 sec: 9 * 9.2% = 83%
    Subsequent: 9 * 9.2% = 83%
    Value: 4 * 114 AP/SP * 83% = 378 SP/AP"

    The 9 here takes into account that some of the raid already has a proc. Say 9/10 of the people WG hits don't have procs. But even if the proc hits someone who already has one active on them it's not worthless. A refresh on someone with 5 seconds left is still 75% as good as a refresh on someone new.

    Anywho I'll try making this a little project to figure out, making a program to calculate all this shouldn't be that hard. The last consideration you need to make though is raid composition. The ap/sp proc is completely useless for tanks, I consider it mostly useless for healers with low dps, and it's not all that useful for a chloro/bard. The effective ap/sp numbers should be reduced 20-40% when considering the real usefulness of the proc in raids.

    I'm very thankful that you posted this though and the work you've put into it. Getting reliable hard numbers to start with is pretty awesome.
    Last edited by MonkeysUncle; 06-08-2013 at 08:52 PM.

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    Got around to making some test code to figure out numbers since the real math seemed over my head. I assumed a chloro heal went out every half second which seems pretty reasonable for both tank and aoe healing if corrosive spores is kept up. If you upkeep withering vines or there's more than two targets you'll have more heal procs every second and probably can increase these numbers by 4-6% while if you're a bit lazy and just ST spam vile spores you'll probably wanna decrease the numbers by 4-8%. Code also assumes the 9.2% proc chance, although the small sample on withering vines suggests that might be a bit high for the veil chloro heals perhaps?

    My code just spit out total seconds of uptime. So if there's 30 seconds of uptime over a 10 second period, that's equivalent to 3 people getting the buff. All numbers assume 20 mans and I did several over 10,000 second periods then averaged to smooth out the numbers.

    1 greater: 3.39 people * 114 = 386 ap/sp
    2 greaters: 6.21 people * 114 = 708 ap/sp, 354 per greater
    3 greaters: 8.55 people *114 = 975 ap/sp, 325 per greater
    4 greaters: 10.5 people * 114 = 1197 ap/sp, 299 per greater
    5 greaters: 12.11 people *114 = 1380 ap/sp, 276 per greater


    They ended up holding sp/ap values better than I thought.
    Last edited by MonkeysUncle; 06-10-2013 at 04:51 PM.

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