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Thread: Pyro: Optimal Opener

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    RIFT Guide Writer NotTrev's Avatar
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    Default Pyro: Optimal Opener

    It seems a lot of people are still in the mindset of "get everything up asap, everything on cd asap, HW, etc." for their opener. I have been thinking this might not be the best approach, so I'm looking for feedback on this opener I have been thinking about. Since we use an extinguish pretty much on the pull anyways, it's geared toward continuing to maximize Aegis procs, which are a large portion of our damage.

    Proposed opener:
    Flamebolt > (Extinguish)Fireball > Countdown > Prime > Fireball > Flame Volley > Fireball > Flamebolt > Fusillade > Fireball > Countdown > (Heat Wave)Countdown > Fireball > Flame Volley > Fireball > Flamebolt > Fusillade > Fireball > Countdown > Filler/Priority/whatev > Fireball etc.

    Pros: Aegis proc every 3seconds. Flamebolt and Countdown keep 100% uptime. Fireball/Aegis proc used directly pre-HW which allows two important gcds for Countdownx2. Uses FV quickly after HW to line up their cds for 3xFV before next HW.

    Cons: Initial Countdown delayed 1gcd to be used as filler. Very rigid.

    Didn't include the IC management but that is another discussion all together. Thoughts, critiques? Anything I missed?
    Last edited by NotTrev; 04-27-2013 at 10:47 AM.

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    Plane Walker merder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotTrev View Post
    It seems a lot of people are still in the mindset of "get everything up asap, everything on cd asap, HW, etc." for their opener. I have been thinking this might not be the best approach, so I'm looking for feedback on this opener I have been thinking about. Since we use an extinguish pretty much on the pull anyways, it's geared toward continuing to maximize Aegis procs, which are a large portion of our damage.

    Proposed opener:
    Flamebolt > (Extinguish)Fireball > Countdown > Prime > Fireball > Flame Volley > Fireball > Flamebolt > Fusillade > Fireball > Countdown > (Heat Wave)Countdown > Fireball > Flame Volley > Fireball > Flamebolt > Fusillade > Fireball > Countdown > Filler/Priority/whatev > Fireball etc.

    Pros: Aegis proc every 3seconds. Flamebolt and Countdown keep 100% uptime. Fireball/Aegis proc used directly pre-HW which allows two important gcds for Countdownx2. Uses FV quickly after HW to line up their cds for 3xFV before next HW.

    Cons: Initial Countdown delayed 1gcd to be used as filler. Very rigid.

    Didn't include the IC management but that is another discussion all together. Thoughts, critiques? Anything I missed?
    Great opener imo.

    Maybe a dumb question, when you show "(Heatwave)", you mean you are using that to spam hw priorities right? You're not casting that FV during hw are you?
    Formerly Manwitch.... 4/4 FT 5/5 EE 3/4 GA

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    RIFT Guide Writer NotTrev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merder View Post
    Great opener imo.

    Maybe a dumb question, when you show "(Heatwave)", you mean you are using that to spam hw priorities right? You're not casting that FV during hw are you?
    I just put the off the gcd abilities in parenthesis rather than typing "> Countdown > Heat Wave > Countdown >".

    And yea, I'm casting FV during HW, first filler after the first Fireball in HW. I've considered the alternative, but think this is better. With the amount of extinguish uptime we have I don't think 3seconds of ICD Fireball spam at 1.0 is worth a lot, from HW. Using FV asap after HW use allows a third FV with HW only delayed 4-5seconds(channel time+aegis proc). Using FV after HW ends means you have to hold onto your next HW cd to use FV a third time, and then possibly holding a bit longer even for another Fus.

    If you find different results be sure to let me know.
    Last edited by NotTrev; 04-27-2013 at 11:28 AM.

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    Plane Walker merder's Avatar
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    Yea I am doubling cd as well, and as I'm on mobile, I will try the FV usage when I log


    Veddy interesting
    Formerly Manwitch.... 4/4 FT 5/5 EE 3/4 GA

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    Ascendant lol r u mad's Avatar
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    I was under the impression that you should try to save everything for Flaring Power. FV, Fus, Fulm, then HW, then all 3 again

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    Hard cast Cinder Burst early after heatwave, you might get a proc soon to reset the cd.

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    I think you're better off with a fireball first. With aegis procs every 3s, delaying fireball 1s is like losing 1/3 of a fireball. With flame bolt first, you gain 10% damage. So flame bolt->fireball gives 10% damage to 2 fireballs but the delay on fireball means you lose 33% of a fireball. Should be a slight loss. Of course if you fireball first that messes up everything else. You can do something like use backdraft as a filler and keep the rotation or maybe just toss out fusillade a bit earlier and adjust the rest of the stuff.

    (Extinguish)Fireball > flame bolt > Countdown > Fireball > Prime > ? > Fireball > Flame Volley

    The only other hiccup with your rotation is cinderburst procs, but I think you can cover that with adjusting the area around heat wave without too much trouble. Should usually just mean inserting cinderburst before pre-HW countdown, start off HW with a fireball, then the first filler block after that is countdown > flame bolt > fireball and then continue as you were.

    Also something I've thought about. Now that extinguish no longer needs combust stacks it's not 100% necessary to get combust on the boss as soon as humanly possible. You could use flame rupture. I haven't looked to see exactly how they fixed flame rupture but before what it did was refresh combust every 1s. On it's own it just makes combust tick like normal but when you add in flame bolt/fireball that also refresh combust stacks combust will start ticking 2 times in a second. At some point I'm planning to go ACT to look at combust ticks to quantify exactly what happens but I think using flame rupture vs prime will generate at least 2 extra combust ticks, probably more like 4. It's potentially a gain of a few hundred damage. Or put in another way 8 dps over the course of a fight.
    Last edited by MonkeysUncle; 04-27-2013 at 12:32 PM.

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    Interesting opening, I will have to try it.

    MonkeysUncle, 3 things I think you could do with the question mark in your version (in order of priority):

    Fusillade
    Cinder proc
    Wildfire proc
    Searing Vitality

    Although I believe SV is only a DPS gain over a 1.5s fireball during icd. If extinguish is up it might be better to just cast a single fireball.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanlo View Post
    I mean, you didn't see Gandalf bunnyhopping through Mordor blasting away with instant cast spells.

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    *stupid edit timer*

    Also, if your suspicions about Flame Rupture prove to be correct, I wonder if it would be worth using for more than just the opener? (i.e. Whenever you need an extra instant to pad your icd timer.)

    This is potentially 15 seconds of double combust ticks from 1 cast.
    Last edited by Scuba Steve; 04-27-2013 at 01:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanlo View Post
    I mean, you didn't see Gandalf bunnyhopping through Mordor blasting away with instant cast spells.

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    RIFT Guide Writer NotTrev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lol r u mad View Post
    I was under the impression that you should try to save everything for Flaring Power. FV, Fus, Fulm, then HW, then all 3 again
    Yea, I was looking at this purely from a dummy perspective, but you make a good point.

    As the rotation is it leaves 5 gcds before the first major cooldown, Flame Volley. This gives your archon about 6 seconds to debuff before FP, considering you wait a second on the pull, which I usually do. Maybe this will differ from guild to guild but our archon typically uses FP soon as his debuffs are up unless we specifically wait for a mechanic(Matriarch, getting the Childe dead for crystals first, Goloch bubble).

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ911 View Post
    Hard cast Cinder Burst early after heatwave, you might get a proc soon to reset the cd.
    Didn't think about that. Though I'm not sure which block you would place it in. Either you delay FV two blocks or you delay FBolt and Fus one block, which means that cinderburst is probably going off without 10% sp. One of the cons of this opener, like I said, is it's pretty rigid. Where would you want to put it?

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeysUncle View Post
    I think you're better off with a fireball first. With aegis procs every 3s, delaying fireball 1s is like losing 1/3 of a fireball. With flame bolt first, you gain 10% damage. So flame bolt->fireball gives 10% damage to 2 fireballs but the delay on fireball means you lose 33% of a fireball. Should be a slight loss. Of course if you fireball first that messes up everything else. You can do something like use backdraft as a filler and keep the rotation or maybe just toss out fusillade a bit earlier and adjust the rest of the stuff.

    (Extinguish)Fireball > flame bolt > Countdown > Fireball > Prime > ? > Fireball > Flame Volley

    The only other hiccup with your rotation is cinderburst procs, but I think you can cover that with adjusting the area around heat wave without too much trouble. Should usually just mean inserting cinderburst before pre-HW countdown, start off HW with a fireball, then the first filler block after that is countdown > flame bolt > fireball and then continue as you were.

    Also something I've thought about. Now that extinguish no longer needs combust stacks it's not 100% necessary to get combust on the boss as soon as humanly possible. You could use flame rupture. I haven't looked to see exactly how they fixed flame rupture but before what it did was refresh combust every 1s. On it's own it just makes combust tick like normal but when you add in flame bolt/fireball that also refresh combust stacks combust will start ticking 2 times in a second. At some point I'm planning to go ACT to look at combust ticks to quantify exactly what happens but I think using flame rupture vs prime will generate at least 2 extra combust ticks, probably more like 4. It's potentially a gain of a few hundred damage. Or put in another way 8 dps over the course of a fight.
    That ? in your suggestion would definitely be Fus, and that might be better. So it would turn into..

    (Extinguish)Fireball > Flamebolt > Countdown > Fireball > Prime > Fusillade > Fireball > Flame Volley > Fireball > Flamebolt > Countdown > Fireball > (Heat Wave)Countdown > Fusillade > Fireball > Flame Volley > Fireball > Flamebolt > Countdown > Fireball > hardcast(assuming not on cd)Cinderburst > Fireball etc.

    The only problem I have with this opener is that it pushes around Flamebolt/countdown timers. The underlined Aegis proc Fireball might barely just not have 10% Flamebolt buff and the following Countdown is delayed well past the 8second mark. Suggestions?

    Also you're right about Cinderburst procs. Like I said one con of this setup is that it's extremely rigid and it's setup without much leeway and without Cinderburst or Wildfire procs in mind. Wildfire isn't much of an issue because they won't be a dps gain over Fus, FV, CD, etc. and the opener has no use for additional filler anyway. Cinderburst procs however, should be used, which means improvising like you suggested.

  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer NotTrev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scuba Steve View Post
    Interesting opening, I will have to try it.

    MonkeysUncle, 3 things I think you could do with the question mark in your version (in order of priority):

    Fusillade
    Cinder proc
    Wildfire proc
    Searing Vitality

    Although I believe SV is only a DPS gain over a 1.5s fireball during icd. If extinguish is up it might be better to just cast a single fireball.
    Fus is definitely the right answer, Imo. It's a major cd, not just trash filler like wildfire or sv, so it should be used.

  12. #12
    RIFT Guide Writer NotTrev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scuba Steve View Post
    *stupid edit timer*

    Also, if your suspicions about Flame Rupture prove to be correct, I wonder if it would be worth using for more than just the opener? (i.e. Whenever you need an extra instant to pad your icd timer.)

    This is potentially 15 seconds of double combust ticks from 1 cast.
    I just looked into this. Did Flamebolt > Prime and watched it tick for 337 once every second, used Flame Rupture before my spellpower buff dropped and saw a quick double tick of 337 and then 337 every second, except every 5th second it would double-tick 337. So, that Flame Rupture basically got me three extra ticks of 337 for one gcd. Searing Vitality, Blazing Light or Backdraft would have been better as a filler.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NotTrev View Post
    (Extinguish)Fireball > Flamebolt > Countdown > Fireball > Prime > Fusillade > Fireball > Flame Volley > Fireball > Flamebolt > Countdown > Fireball > (Heat Wave)Countdown > Fusillade > Fireball > Flame Volley > Fireball > Flamebolt > Countdown > Fireball > hardcast(assuming not on cd)Cinderburst > Fireball etc.

    The only problem I have with this opener is that it pushes around Flamebolt/countdown timers. The underlined Aegis proc Fireball might barely just not have 10% Flamebolt buff and the following Countdown is delayed well past the 8second mark. Suggestions?
    So the question becomes 'Which is worse, delaying countdown, or losing 1/3 fireball?'

    Although in reality it is closer to 13% you are losing if my math is right. 10% damage on 2 fireballs should equal 20% damage on 1 fireball. 33% - 20% = 13% difference.
    Last edited by Scuba Steve; 04-27-2013 at 01:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanlo View Post
    I mean, you didn't see Gandalf bunnyhopping through Mordor blasting away with instant cast spells.

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    The timing on Flame Bolt and Countdown is VERY tight, but you could

    Prime > (ext.) Fireball > Flame Bolt > Countdown > Fireball > Flame Volley > Fireball > Flame Bolt > Countdown > Fireball > Fusillade > ? > Heatwave

    This leaves a spot for Cinder or other filler, but you have to be quick to get double Countdown.
    Last edited by Scuba Steve; 04-27-2013 at 02:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanlo View Post
    I mean, you didn't see Gandalf bunnyhopping through Mordor blasting away with instant cast spells.

  15. #15
    RIFT Guide Writer NotTrev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scuba Steve View Post
    The timing on Flame Bolt and Countdown is VERY tight, but you could

    Prime > (ext.) Fireball > Flame Bolt > Countdown > Fireball > Flame Volley > Fireball > Flame Bolt > Countdown > Fireball > Fusillade > ? > Heatwave

    This leaves a spot for Cinder or other filler, but you have to be quick to get double Countdown.
    Unless I counted wrong you show refreshing Flamebolt and Countdown at 7seconds, not 8 as they expire. Sadly I don't think that will work, as you will need to use something else at the second Flamebolt(cinder?), you could then Flamebolt one second later, which should still let Countdown expire at 5stacks but then you need to Countdown after the next Fireball where Fus is. Something like:

    (ext.) Fireball > Flame Bolt > Countdown > Fireball > Flame Volley > Fireball > Cinder or Backdraft > Flamebolt > Fireball > Countdown > Fusillade > Heatwave > Fireball > Countdown > Fusillade > Fireball > Flame Volley > Fireball > hardcastCinderburst > Fireball > etc.

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