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Thread: "Point to point" archon ability after 2.2

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default "Point to point" archon ability after 2.2

    I would like to have the point of view of mage and especially the mage dev about this ability.

    Since Storm Legion was launched, trion promoted 61 point build (no need to explain this, there are lot of guide in every class section on the forum). For each soul, the 61 point ability is supposed to be the most powerfull of the tree. Recently some adjustment was made around 61 ability for elementalist, necromancer, a bit more older the harbringuer ability took a buff too (if my memory is correct) to made these abilities worth the investment of point in the soul.

    The first time i saw the new ability in the 1.11 i said : "WTF!!! this ability is crap", after SL launching i tested this ability and finally i found some usefulness but only for the 2 last boss of the 10-man raid. I though : "great trion give us a QoL ability". Point to point was absolutely not as powerfull as other 61 point ability but at least it was useful to make encounter fun.

    In fact the usefulness was very limited : only 2 encounter could be convenient for this ability. Absolutly no need for the 20-man raid of crucia and regulos to take this ability (as i can see).

    Now with the change of the 2.2 this skill is by far the most useless skill in the archon tree. How could we justify to invest 61 point on archon tree now ??? Before 2.2 very few mage ran with 61 archon build, 54 point was enough to have full archon power because the 58 point ability is also a QoL ability.

    I would love to have an explanation of the usefulness of this ability (in PvE) when it was created. What is the point to create an ability which have absolutely no usefulness in PvE (raid encounter) ?

    Please remove this ability and give us something else useful which could justify to invest 61 point on archon tree.

    Sorry for my english, not my first language.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Inixia's Avatar
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    As far as pvp goes (although I realize your focus is more pve oriented, it does have a larger role to play outside of it), point to point is an awesome, underrated ability. Archon is not very scoreboard friendly though so its underplayed, but a well played p2p is a very strong getaway and spacing tool- and can help bridge gaps and work around vertical areas (like the cliffs in karthan), in an otherwise pretty terrible class in terms of defense.
    I've seen it be pretty useful in pve too to get around certain mechanics, its not required, and its hard to get a team to want to work around it, but I have seen it used. And well, having the 61 pt less pve required than stuff such as the 51 point ability was pre expac, is not necessarily a bad thing, bc it opens up the class to hybrids more.
    Last edited by Inixia; 02-28-2013 at 07:56 PM.

  3. #3
    General of Telara Asaomar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ishiryu View Post
    Absolutly no need for the 20-man raid of crucia and regulos to take this ability (as i can see).
    we use it during the regulos encounter
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    Ascendant Pixel Monkey's Avatar
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    i had the spec in reserve for progression but never ended up needing it at all so i just dropped it cause theres just not enough role slots to get by
    the only real time ive found some good use for it is in the air raid rift where you have to catapult the shield off the boss.
    even there i dont even bother and im quite happy i dont absolutely need it for raiding cause 61 is harsh on the parse
    Last edited by Pixel Monkey; 02-28-2013 at 08:26 PM.
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  5. #5
    Sword of Telara Crovack's Avatar
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    Point to Point is a TERRIBLE idea for a 61-point ability. In most souls the 61 point ability is something that is always useful.

    Let's compare:
    Harb - EA - dps increase in both single target and aoe, bonus of being a defensive cooldown
    Lock - VBar - one of the hardest hitting abilities in the soul and plays a role in significantly altering the way the spec is played (not manually refreshing dots)
    Ele - PV - Intended to be a dps increase channel. The state of 61Ele isn't strong, but this ability is intended to be and has been adjusted up in dps to create a 'cooldown attack' style ability
    Pyro & Chloro - New buffs, that serve to be an improvement to the soul regardless of situation

    You see the pattern? Most, if not all, 61 point abilities are a constant benefit to the soul. Those that haven't been well tuned, like Possession, are actively being worked on to make them more desirable.

    Now let's turn to Point-to-Point - this is a niche ability that *might* be useful in some circumstances but in the bulk of fights is completely unnecessary if not simply entirely useless. This means that *if* an Archon wants to keep this ability for the specific fights it's useful, they're inclined to keep multiple archon specs: one with 61 point archon, one with 51-54 points in archon and spending those remaining points in other souls for more useful abilities.

    PtP is the kind of ability that should be lower in a tree and would have made a fine 54/58 point ability, with Archon's Bulwark serving as a much more logical 61 point ability. Now, that said: Archon's Bulwark is terribly designed, but it could be worked on and improved to make it more appealing and encourage 61 archon as being more interesting or viable among specs. You could easily tweak and alter Archon's Bulwark to supply additional dps, or some other sort of buff (Example, if not necessarily practical: Archon's Bulwark causes the buff from your Granite Salvo to have a reduced effect that now stacks with all other buffs).

    However, back to PtP - this ability was just a bad idea in the first place. In a soul that's meant to be mostly interchangeable with another soul (BM), you can't give either an ability that is required for any raid fight. There may be times that it's considered useful, but it can't be required if BM and Archon are intended to both be viable. This means that raid encounters cannot be designed with the intention of PtP being used. Now, assuming PtP functionally worked better than it does - it still serves a pore design purpose from the ground up. This is made worse by the fact that it's the '61 point ability' unless the intention was to make '61 archon' to only be used in select rare scenarios.

    What's worse, PtP is designed poorly in that it cannot be 'tuned' up or down to make it substantially better or worse. You may be able to tweak it in some way to make it more appealing on some encounters (however this would have a direct negative effect on the value of the BM soul, so is unlikely to ever be considered). What's worse, even if it had restrictions removed and was made substantially more functional for it's intended function - it still wouldn't be used in more encounters than it would be used! The result is that you're punishing anyone who would come to rely on this ability by forcing the player to waste one of limited role slots on a niche spec used for specific fight(s).

    This might be different if there were a dozen or more role slots available to us, but currently our archon already carries 3 archon specs: harb-archon for matriarch and melee dps; rangeddps-archon for general purpose fights; dom-archon for trash and certain situations (though I'm not sure how necessary this one is anymore).

    At a minimum PtP should be swapped with Archon's Bulwark and AB should be considered for some tweaks that resulted in it boosting the Archon's personal dps by enough to leave it roughly equal to the existing 51-25 archon-pyro spec.
    At worst it should be scrapped entirely.

  6. #6
    Rift Master Pope Zaphod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ishiryu View Post
    Now with the change of the 2.2 this skill is by far the most useless skill in the archon tree.
    What change are you referring to? I must have missed something.
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  7. #7
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pope Zaphod View Post
    What change are you referring to? I must have missed something.
    They fixed the bug where you could use it more often than intended

  8. #8
    Ascendant Xenoheart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pope Zaphod View Post
    What change are you referring to? I must have missed something.
    The change is actually a "fix". It originally was not meant to be able to teleport back and forth more than once in under a 30 second period (which is why it became really useful in pve and especially pvp being able to blink away several times from your opponent). However, sometimes you could allow rapid movement of the whole raid.

    However, its movement potential has been cut by about 2/3 with the recent fix (as I could port back and forth several times before the CD kicked in).

    I completely agree that the 61 point ability should not be a gimmicky ability that provides no big benefit to the archon in doing his job whatsoever. the 58 ability falls in that category too as the buffs when manually applied last 5 minutes anyway. they both need a big boost somehow and I think the 61 point ability needs flat out changed. No one runs more than 54 archon it seems as the abilities aren't worth it compared to the opportunity cost of other abilities an archon can obtain.
    Last edited by Xenoheart; 03-01-2013 at 12:51 PM.
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  9. #9
    Prophet of Telara Frailaq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenoheart View Post
    the 58 ability falls in that category too as the buffs when manually applied last 5 minutes anyway. they both need a big boost somehow and I think the 61 point ability needs flat out changed. No one runs more than 54 archon it seems as the abilities aren't worth it compared to the opportunity cost of other abilities an archon can obtain.
    Not to mention that the buffs that Archon's Bulwark "replaces" still need to be cast as debuffs on your targets even if you use AB.

    Agreed, both the 58 and 61 point abilities in Archon are just a waste.
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  10. #10
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pope Zaphod
    What change are you referring to? I must have missed something.
    Without entering in details, before the patch if you properly use PtP, you could had a single way teleportation every 15 sec.

    Now, no matter what, you got the 1 min cooldown. So it's impossible to build a strategy around this ability anymore because boss mechanics have shorter timers. And i can't see any other encounter (than jultharin and typheria) where PtP could have a real impact on the raid as DPS gain.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    They fixed the bug where you could use it more often than intended
    Honestly when we have started to use PtP, this technique didn't seems broken to us. Because PtP was already so useless in most encounter and absolutely not needed to down bosses, it's was just a matter of comfort.


    @inixia ; yes this skill still have a usefulness in PvP but honestly i don't care about PvP ^^. If trion would give us such useful ability for PvP it should be on dominator tree, not archon.

    As crovack and other people said, in any situation all other 61 ability are always useful and a DPS gain. Basically PtP is a DPS loss, and as mention by xenoheart and frailaq the 58 point ability is pointless.

    None of these 2 ability worth the investment in point on the archon soul. And that is against the guidline of trion about soul balance (61 point soul build promoted).

    So i really hope this thread is readed by daglar and some improvement will be done in the futur.

    Some nice idea was suggest and not hard to realize) :

    - the 58 point ability (personnal buff) should give more stat than currently, because at the moment the gain is minimal to be consider as DPS gain.

    - the 61 point abilty should add a debuff on granite salvo : "reduce damage done by 3% over 5 sec" (3% is not too much to make Power drain useless and 5 sec is enough for refreshing raid buff with volcanic bomb, surging flare, spark shower and earthen barrage). That's way granite salvo could also proc burning purpose. So this ability will be usefull for raid because of the 3% reduce damage done by the boss, and it will be a big DPS gain because we can add the burning purpose damage to granite salvo. And we respect the philosophy of archon which is to put debuff on target and proc bruning purpose (remember me good old memories with pillaging stone spam)

  11. #11
    Ascendant Pixel Monkey's Avatar
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    not bad
    or how about 61 point trait
    bp crits increase raid healing by x% for x seconds
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  12. #12
    Shield of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixel Monkey View Post
    bp crits increase raid healing by x% for x seconds
    Don't mean to be a downer, but seeing as healing is already in a pretty good spot, do you want to throw in more +% healing and make fights even more faceroll? It's hard to die in a boss, unless you miss mechanics. Even standing in Crucia's wisps-thingies won't kill you, as they move out of range before three ticks.

    I only die to Goloch because I don't know how to melee.

    Who thought it would be a good idea to make a mage melee? I don't have the attention span for this.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Pixel Monkey's Avatar
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    yea what i should have types was ap/sp increase, like the old id infernal sands proc
    wasnt thinkin
    nothing new
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  14. #14
    Rift Chaser
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    Archon's point to point teleport has only one use:

    Taking shortcuts in dungeons and exploiting encounters.

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    Point to Point is absolutely awful. The only use for the damn thing is to exploit your way around other awful shoddy content (Hi Stormbreaker...) as it is far too limited to use in any actual encounter.

    Seriously what good could come from a short range teleport that you can only use once a minute and which requires one person to already be located at the exit point before it can be cast?

    http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb...59cno1_500.jpg

    WoW did this idea with better graphics and better mechanics that allow it to be useful without being game breaking. If you can't do better than this then at least copy something successful.

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