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Thread: Archon - Lava Field

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Archon - Lava Field

    Hello everyone,

    I was wondering if Lava field does affect 20 players.
    If we look at the tooltip, it is not precise enough. Every second it applies a 5 or 6 second buff to 10 players in the raid. So, if 20 people are standing in it, does it apply to everyone?

    I mean, this way:
    Player 1-10 get the buff the first second.
    Player 11-20 get the buff next second.

    Player 1-10 get buff refreshed.
    Player 11-20 get buff refreshed.

    And so on, until lava field disappears.

    Did anyone test that? I will on next raid20, but if it works it would be fine

    Regards,
    Elyxia

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    no-one knows about this ?

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    Ascendant Pixel Monkey's Avatar
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    its 10 but each tick has a chance to buff 10 for the buffs duration
    Last edited by Pixel Monkey; 02-27-2013 at 05:11 AM.
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  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    Okay, so, considering this, lava field can easily buff 20 players

    If i'm wondering about this, it's because lava field is available with only 22 points in archon, and while in 20 players raid, having it may increase overall raid DPS.

  5. #5
    Ascendant Pixel Monkey's Avatar
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    sorry man its like 220am im not really following
    if youre the archon you will be wanting to use this skill asap when its not going to conflict with other raid buffs.
    if youre not the archon you wont want to spend 22 points in the tree to have it
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  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixel Monkey View Post
    if youre not the archon you wont want to spend 22 points in the tree to have it
    Why not?
    15% of pure damage increase. Making raid dps rise from 150k to 172.5k.
    This result in 22.5k*(1/6) = 3750 average dps gain.
    So you can easily get a better overall raid-dps with this, even if your personnal dps decreases.

  7. #7
    Soulwalker
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    I would like to have some comments about it

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    Prophet of Telara Frailaq's Avatar
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    First off, this is a forum and your post has been up only a few hours. In other words, stop spamming.

    As for your question, the archon guide written by TheGrinnz describes how Lava Field works:
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    Another cooldown you have available is Lava Field. This can be used once per minute and increases damage done by 15% for up to 10 allies within the area of effect. The buff lasts 6 seconds and each second refreshes a new 5 second buff, so it effectively lasts 11 seconds.
    If you have more than 10 allies within the area of effect then it is possible that more than 10 people will get the buff. In fact, the ideal scenario would have two groups of 10 people, drop LF on group A, group A runs out of it, group B runs into it, 4-5 seconds pass and you repeat with group A running into it and then out followed by group B running into it. Considering the complexity of that scenario, however, and that fact that it involves movement may actually mean that it is a dps decrease over just dropping LF on 10 people and having them stay there. Generally speaking, it's better to drop on melee than on ranged because melee will have higher dps plus you get some minuscule amount of personal dps but if it's a disconnect heavy fight it may be better to place on ranged.

    As for whether or not it's worth putting 22 points into Archon to get LF... it's not. Plain and simple. 22 points in a subsoul rules out any 61 point build and the only hybrid that is parsing well is the pyro/harb which has no room for Archon.

    tl;dr - leave Lava Field to the main spec Archon.
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  9. #9
    Soulwalker
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    yeah, sorry for spamming i'm not always patient

    My question was more like: if 20 people stay in LF, does buff refresh affect a random 10 people each second? (and indeed, no need to run in/outside the AoE)
    [edit]The best possibility would refresh buff alternatively for subgroups of 10 players until end of LF, so 10 players get it for 10s, and 10 others get it for 10s

    This way, putting LF in a ranged dps raid is a truck about dps increase, meaning it worth spending 22pts in archon to gain overall raid dps enhancement.
    Last edited by ElyxiaFR; 02-27-2013 at 07:45 AM.

  10. #10
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElyxiaFR View Post
    yeah, sorry for spamming i'm not always patient

    My question was more like: if 20 people stay in LF, does buff refresh affect a random 10 people each second? (and indeed, no need to run in/outside the AoE)
    [edit]The best possibility would refresh buff alternatively for subgroups of 10 players until end of LF, so 10 players get it for 10s, and 10 others get it for 10s

    This way, putting LF in a ranged dps raid is a truck about dps increase, meaning it worth spending 22pts in archon to gain overall raid dps enhancement.
    In my experience it tends to refresh the buff on the same 10 players each tick, unless perhaps there's significant movement. And the buff that refreshes only lasts 5 seconds. Either way, not something you can rely on.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 02-27-2013 at 12:08 PM.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Soul sky's Avatar
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    Unsure if it can effect 20 people... hard to test

    Though I have always been interested in the idea of Lava Field specs to increase raid DPS.

    Let's see.

    Single target raid DPS: 150k

    10% of that (assuming multiplicative) = 15k. For 11 seconds a minute. 60/11=5.45

    Although it's not as simple as that, since if you were to have it hit 10 melee DPS'ers, they're likely to be doing a larger portion of that 150k dps, or if it hits healers/bards/chloros etc, the overall effect will be less.

    but let's say

    15,000/5.45= 2,752

    So you could say that Lava Field will add very very roughly 2700 raid DPS assuming 150k base (reasonable number for good guilds)

    So: are there any worthwhile DPS specs which can include Lava field and come within 2-3k of the highest parsing specs like 61Harb or Pyroharb?

    Archonbinger is competitive with 61Harb and Pyroharb in DPS if it can use its auras (if the raid runs a Beast master, which no one does, even :<)

    Need to test how much something similar adds without auras when im bored. But won't be worth it anyway since people need to actually stay in the Lava Field for a period of time, doesn't stack with Power Core, etc. I guess it can spam cleanse on a 0.5s gcd and give an extra Flaring power for people who die after the first, and backup auras XD lol
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  12. #12
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soul sky View Post
    Although it's not as simple as that, since if you were to have it hit 10 melee DPS'ers, they're likely to be doing a larger portion of that 150k dps, or if it hits healers/bards/chloros etc, the overall effect will be less.
    It's still not as simple as that; it stacks additively with other raid damage buffs (like Enrage and Volcanic Bomb) and is more of a benefit when combined with Flaring Power, Wild Growth and personal DPS cooldowns. But an interesting idea to consider nonetheless (though not worth the effort in my opinion, it's easier just to bring more Power Cores)
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 02-27-2013 at 01:03 PM.

  13. #13
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    Lava field just affects random people. So if you're incredibly lucky it'll hit all 20 members. Most likely though you'll probably be looking at 17-18 people being hit with it for an average of ~9s or something like that. If you wanted to get really mathsy I'm sure you could make a statistics problem out of this and it wouldn't be too hard.

    If you have access to any hypatia logs its fairly easy to see how lava field works. Just go to the log browser and look at lava field buff lost. It seems like any lava field refresh is counted as a buff loss so theres noise at the start and its difficult to make out who exactly has lava field, but at the back end when the aoe has disappeared you can pretty easily see who had it last.


    Anywho I think most mages will be playing warlock, harbinger, or pet specs. Like you said, 1 lava field is maybe a 3.5k raid dps gain. I would bet that if you tried putting 22 into archon in a pet spec or warlock you would lose more than 3.5k personal dps. The only exception is the harbinger/archon combinations.

    Theoretically if your mages used harb/archon, it would probably be a dps gain. But there are other issues. Any fight with movement and lava field is less usefull. You have to have good communication with the other mages and the bard since if you overwrite another lava field or power core you just lost all the benefits of converting mage dps. It has to be a fight where you don't specifically need ranged dps to do stuff like killing adds or AoE.

    Taking all this into account, I think you'd probably use this idea on less than half of 10 and 20 man raid bosses. I'm pretty unfamiliar with how the archon/harb hybrids parse, but I could imagine if you converted 3 mage dps on certain fights it might end up being a 5-8k raid dps gain. I also wouldn't be surprised if it ended up as dps neutral for the raid though.
    Last edited by MonkeysUncle; 02-27-2013 at 02:26 PM.

  14. #14
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeysUncle View Post
    Lava field just affects random people. So if you're incredibly lucky it'll hit all 20 members. Most likely though you'll probably be looking at 17-18 people being hit with it for an average of ~9s or something like that. If you wanted to get really mathsy I'm sure you could make a statistics problem out of this and it wouldn't be too hard.

    If you have access to any hypatia logs its fairly easy to see how lava field works. Just go to the log browser and look at lava field buff lost. It seems like any lava field refresh is counted as a buff loss so theres noise at the start and its difficult to make out who exactly has lava field, but at the back end when the aoe has disappeared you can pretty easily see who had it last.


    Anywho I think most mages will be playing warlock, harbinger, or pet specs. Like you said, 1 lava field is maybe a 3.5k raid dps gain. I would bet that if you tried putting 22 into archon in a pet spec or warlock you would lose more than 3.5k personal dps. The only exception is the harbinger/archon combinations.

    Theoretically if your mages used harb/archon, it would probably be a dps gain. But there are other issues. Any fight with movement and lava field is less usefull. You have to have good communication with the other mages and the bard since if you overwrite another lava field or power core you just lost all the benefits of converting mage dps. It has to be a fight where you don't specifically need ranged dps to do stuff like killing adds or AoE.

    Taking all this into account, I think you'd probably use this idea on less than half of 10 and 20 man raid bosses. I'm pretty unfamiliar with how the archon/harb hybrids parse, but I could imagine if you converted 3 mage dps on certain fights it might end up being a 5-8k raid dps gain. I also wouldn't be surprised if it ended up as dps neutral for the raid though.
    Assuming you have only one power core, it would only be worth having 2 additional lava fields after the Archon, then the cooldowns start coming back up

  15. #15
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soul sky View Post
    Unsure if it can effect 20 people... hard to test

    Single target raid DPS: 150k

    10% of that (assuming multiplicative) = 15k. For 11 seconds a minute. 60/11=5.45

    but let's say

    15,000/5.45= 2,752

    So you could say that Lava Field will add very very roughly 2700 raid DPS assuming 150k base (reasonable number for good guilds)
    Hi

    First of all, lava field is a 15% damage.

    I've done my experiments yesterday, and here are my results:

    I tried some combination, but i wanted to mix pyro with archon. After some tests, the better mix i found is 54 Pyro / 22 Archon, giving you all you need for Pyro gameplay with cinderburst proc armor.

    If i wanted to try this, it's mainly because heatwave .... reset Lava Field cooldown, meaning i can put an additionnal Lava Field every 2 minutes, resulting in 3 lava field every 2 minutes.

    We also tested burst combination, and LF does not stack with the core of tactician which has 10s burst, 1mn CD. It also does not stack with the bard burst (15s, 2 mns CD).

    According to that, having one 54 Pyro / 22 Archon is a really interresting spec to have in raid 20, meaning with the main bard, main archon, 1 or 2 tactician, and me as pyro/archon, can provide (15+11+2*10+2*11=68s) of full burst (reminds that LF is the best boost with the bard one, 15% pure damage)

    Now, about the parse:

    I did parse really good numbers with this spec on a single dummy, i can sustain a 8k5 dps with ONLY expert stuff (do not remember my actual SP), comparing with my 61lock/8necro/7pyro which sustain 8k6 dps on dummy. (i know, 8pyro/7necro is better, here is not the point, just a comparison point)

    22 Archon points provide really good dps boost (5%crit, 10% ignore resistance, 5% damage) and each point spent in this tree gives 1% damage


    Here it is,

    Regards

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