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Thread: QoL change and boost to Pyro-Lock specs

  1. #1
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    Default QoL change and boost to Pyro-Lock specs

    Back in the day, Pyro and Lock had excellent synergy in that a number of Pyro's fire attacks were counted as dots.
    This seems to have changed somewhere along the line. I recall that Countdown, Combust, Withering Flames, and Firestorm all benefited from the dot-specific increases in Warlock. Now it seems that only Combust and Countdown get any real benefit from points in Lock, or from Contaminate.

    Arguably about 40% of Pyro's damage is dots and channels. It seems that channels are no longer counted as dots, although they do deal their damage over a period of time. This, when combined with the number of abilities fighting for charge usage in Pyro, reduces the build's synergy and just makes it more awkward to play.

    If Pyro's channels were counted as dots and benefited from Contaminate, it would generally increase 61 Pyro's dps by about 6-8%, and help with the charge management issue, as there would be less reason to micromanage I.C. toggling for every channel.

    Right now it seems that Pyro is the redheaded stepchild of the mage class. Lock does more ST and AoE, with more mobility... The only thing Pyro has is situational burst, IF you want to hang around with 110 charge and Flame Sigil ready, waiting for something to happen.
    Given the greater complexity and lower mobility of Pyromancer, it really should be a little better than 61 Lock, where you can almost mindlessly refresh your dots every 10 seconds.

  2. #2
    Champion Carolius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenji1134 View Post
    Right now it seems that Pyro is the redheaded stepchild of the mage class.
    Stormcaller would like a word with you...

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    Stormcaller is a little like Champion. Its sustained aoe with the occasional burst, unlike Dom which is a butt-load of burst.

    TBH, Pyro was always more of a burst spec, while Lock was a stability spec. They have all of the right abilities to fulfill their respective niches, with one major difference, charge.

    With Lock, you spend 10 charge to add 30% damage to your dots, which you then refresh without spending more charge. The only time Lock runs low on charge is immediately after using Empowered Darkness... which is once a minute. So here's a dot spec, that can charge toggle freely, but doesnt have to, since it always have a surplus of charge, and gets a large boost to the abilities that comprise the bulk of its dps...

    Compare that with Pyro... Fulminate eats 100 charge... ouch. Withering Flames eats 60, and is on a long cooldown, so it should always be used with an IC toggle, which is another 10 charge at a minimum... so 70. Next we have Flame Volley, once a minute, really want to IC that, -10. And Fusillade, hits about 3x as hard as Fireball... IC that... And Cinderburst... yeah, instant Cinder, IC that...

    So, Lock... -50 charge to start the rotation, small charge drain throughout, and -70 charge every minute. All non-dot abilities generate charge.

    Pyro... -100 charge every 45 sec (Fulm), - 70 charge every 60 sec (Withering+IC), -10 charge every 60 (Volley+IC), , -10 charge every 45 (Fusillade), -10 charge once in a while (Cinder+IC). And every ability used with an IC toggle gives no charge... yeah, that is a lot of charge usage.

    The biggest culprits here are Fulminate and Withering Flames. If (through some miracle) these two abilities did not consume charge, then we could skillfully IC toggle the abilities we need, without needing to save up X charge for an attack that is still on cooldown.
    Or, remove the -10 initial charge cost on IC. This will let us use it with Fulminate, and let us more skillfully toggle it when we want to.

    I wonder though, how would 61 lock's dps look if you turned off Contaminate for every other dot refresh? Basically force a 50% charge buff uptime for Lock, similar to what Pyro has to deal with... granted Pyro's is more like 30% uptime at best, and see what the numbers look like.
    Last edited by kenji1134; 02-20-2013 at 01:06 PM.

  4. #4
    Sword of Telara Crovack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenji1134 View Post
    Stormcaller is a little like Champion. Its sustained aoe with the occasional burst, unlike Dom which is a butt-load of burst.

    TBH, Pyro was always more of a burst spec, while Lock was a stability spec. They have all of the right abilities to fulfill their respective niches, with one major difference, charge.

    With Lock, you spend 10 charge to add 30% damage to your dots, which you then refresh without spending more charge. The only time Lock runs low on charge is immediately after using Empowered Darkness... which is once a minute. So here's a dot spec, that can charge toggle freely, but doesnt have to, since it always have a surplus of charge, and gets a large boost to the abilities that comprise the bulk of its dps...

    Compare that with Pyro... Fulminate eats 100 charge... ouch. Withering Flames eats 60, and is on a long cooldown, so it should always be used with an IC toggle, which is another 10 charge at a minimum... so 70. Next we have Flame Volley, once a minute, really want to IC that, -10. And Fusillade, hits about 3x as hard as Fireball... IC that... And Cinderburst... yeah, instant Cinder, IC that...

    So, Lock... -50 charge to start the rotation, small charge drain throughout, and -70 charge every minute. All non-dot abilities generate charge.

    Pyro... -100 charge every 45 sec (Fulm), - 70 charge every 60 sec (Withering+IC), -10 charge every 60 (Volley+IC), , -10 charge every 45 (Fusillade), -10 charge once in a while (Cinder+IC). And every ability used with an IC toggle gives no charge... yeah, that is a lot of charge usage.

    The biggest culprits here are Fulminate and Withering Flames. If (through some miracle) these two abilities did not consume charge, then we could skillfully IC toggle the abilities we need, without needing to save up X charge for an attack that is still on cooldown.
    Or, remove the -10 initial charge cost on IC. This will let us use it with Fulminate, and let us more skillfully toggle it when we want to.

    I wonder though, how would 61 lock's dps look if you turned off Contaminate for every other dot refresh? Basically force a 50% charge buff uptime for Lock, similar to what Pyro has to deal with... granted Pyro's is more like 30% uptime at best, and see what the numbers look like.
    You forget that Heat Wave resets all the cooldowns too, but doesn't refill your charge!
    Though it's a lot easier to manage charge once you stop bothering with Fulminate.

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    If that is true, then doesn't that make Fulminate a general dps and QoL loss?
    Um... 51 point practically spec defining super ability... that hurts the spec... K, maybe not spec defining, but it is the original "super attack" of Pyro, and one of its trademarks.

    That's just bad design... Still, even without using Fulminate, although charge management is easier, my dps is about the same.

    Sigh, bad specs make me sad...

  6. #6
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    So, due to boredom and me being stubborn, I decided to try out 61 Pyro vs 61 Lock on pts in the dummy foundry, with mostly full raid gear, with some CP pieces.

    And I must ask... what do the devs intend for pyro?

    Pyro, on the raid dummy over about 5 minutes, 14.2k
    Lock on the raid dummy over 4 minutes, ~14-14.1k
    Lock on the 30% raid dummy over 4 minutes ~16.9k

    So above 50%, lock is a hair below pyro, with an arguably easier rotation.
    Below 50%, lock is head and shoulders over pyro, with only an ever so slightly harder rotation.

    So what's pyro for? Pvp? Firestorm your way to 100 charge, find a mook, hit them with Prime - Flame Bolt - Flame Sigil - Fulminate and hope they die? Nope, 75%+ Valor, my raid geared raid buffed raid debuffed super Fulminate crit was just shy of 50k, that's 12.5k on a player, IF they magically had a +7% inc magic damage debuff on them, and piss poor resists. From there, 0 charge, combust stuff is on cooldown... start throwing fireballs and pray?

    There are already better pvp specs, and all of these valor boosts have dug pyro's grave in pvp... And its just subpar in pve... so... what is the grand plan for pyro now?

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