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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Dear Mage developer, i would like a answer about the chloros veils

  1. #1
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    Default Dear Mage developer, i would like a answer about the chloros veils

    I have asked this question so many times without getting any answer, and after entering Stormlegion this question is far more legit then it ever have been.

    Chloros heal most of all with their veils, the base healing from them comes from this. There is st-heal with lifebound veil and there is aoe-heal with lifegiving veil.

    Over all the chloro is fine except for one thing which is that veils do not heal chloros with veils on. Now this might seem like something that does not matter, but it does and a lot.
    In raids for example, with high damage to raid which almost all bosses have, if you only have chloros healing or if you have two or more chloros healing, they will have to use their cooldowns on them self. This is cd's that any other healer is saving for tanks and oh-****-moments. Because without a cleric (a bard is helpful but still need a healer with cd's), we simply do not receive enough heal.
    Don't take this the wrong way, i find cleric healers just as great as chloros and i love healing with them and they fit in to raids just as much as we do, what i am complaining about is that we are forced to have a set up were a cleric need to keep an eye on the chloros and keep them up, because their own base heal do not go to them, and i simply find that ridiculous

    Another part of Rift were this actually can decide the outcome, is in pvp, and especially warfronts. If you end up in a warfront were there is only chloro healers, then you know this will be a struggle. Because we all know, that the healers have a number 1 over their head and any dps will go for healers. several chloros were none receive heal from the veils, means that we need to keep other chloros including our self up with the cd's that we have. Cd's that we do not have a lot of.
    A chloro can of course cast healing torrent and natural healing on the self over and over but they have a long cast time (in pvp seconds are looooong), and even if this keep us up, there is no heal going out to the rest of the players whilst we do so.

    As for clerics, they have no restriction, any st or aoe heal they cast heals them self and/or raid and other cleric healers. The team that have a cleric will have a far bigger chance to win, because their heal hits anything and everything, a team with only chloros will struggle and most likely loose if the other team put the healers under constant pressure, and all this because the chloros can not heal with their base heal on chloros.

    So my question is why is it like this, and why have this not been removed long time ago? If anything it should been removed the same day we started to heal with cast time rather then damage and if not at that point, so when we moved in to Stormlegion.

    I can somewhat understand that you do not wish for us to be able to synt our self, even though my own opinion is that we should, because clerics can use any st-heal that they use on any tank, on them self, so why should we not be able to do the same, but ok, i can have a understanding that not all feel the same about that, but our veil should always heal any chloro in the group as it heal any other person in the group.

    I know i am not the only one wondering about this, and i would really appreciate a answer. And if there is none, then i would like for you to consider removing it.

  2. #2
    Champion Lifeisdeath's Avatar
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    I think they should get rid of it too, but they probably won't.

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    Rift Master Haceldama's Avatar
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    The various advantages and disadvantages are well discussed in a thread several down from yours http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...r-healing.html

    That said, Chloro's have the advantage of good sustained healing (good heals and no real mana issues). They suffer in the area of burst HPS and the ability to heal other Chloro's. The issue which is well known and previously discussed ad nauseum is just one of the trade offs that adds class balance.

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    Ascendant Misun's Avatar
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    Should be able to heal other chloros. Clerics can heal each other. It's only fair.
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    Sword of Telara meoka2368's Avatar
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    Chloros heal themselves with their veils. They just cannot do this with others also running veils.
    If the restriction was removed, then you could have an entire team of chloros doing a pvp (or dungeon) because they would all be healing each other for so much that no damage would matter.
    They could, in pvp, take the fang (or whatever. I don't really pvp), and just sit on it. The person with the fang would never drop it, no matter how much damage it or the other team did to them.

    So... Reduce the healing amount on each other? By how much? It would still stack in larger groups.

    Besides, a high level chloro has at least half a dozen healing spells, some of which have no cooldown.
    If the cast time is an issue for you, then invest some points in a different soul and get a cast time reduction.
    The other option is to pre-cast things. Start casting the spell before it is needed so that it goes off when it is needed. Hard to do in pvp, but that's what's referred to as awareness and skill.

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    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    The devs stated point-blank during Beta that this is not going to happen.

    People like to ignore the Chloro's greatest strength: it can easily swap between being one of the game's greatest AOE healers and one of the game's greatest tank healers in one GCD. There has to be a drawback to just stacking Chloros or many of the Clerics' souls would be redundant.

    In addition, unlike Clerics, Chloro provides:

    1. Wild Growth
    2. Living Energy
    3. Radiant Spores
    4. Highest personal DPS of any healing soul
    5. Enhanced personal survivability (Raised in Nature, Living Aegis)
    6. Burning Fury (it's not in the Chloro soul, but it's an amazing ability Chloro has easy access to)

    As it is, Clerics are already in a precarious position as healers. You don't need to remove Chloro's ONLY SERIOUS WEAKNESS.

    By the way, I've Chloro'd for 6 of the 9 bosses in the current raid tier's 20-man content. Believe me when I say Clerics would be nearly worthless to a raid outside of 1 Defiler, 1 Puri, and 1 Justicar if Chloros could heal each other. As it is 2 Chloros is nearly always optimal.
    Last edited by Ianto Jones; 02-16-2013 at 10:44 AM.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Misun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    The devs stated point-blank during Beta that this is not going to happen.

    People like to ignore the Chloro's greatest strength: it can easily swap between being one of the game's greatest AOE healers and one of the game's greatest tank healers in one GCD. There has to be a drawback to just stacking Chloros or many of the Clerics' souls would be redundant.

    In addition, unlike Clerics, Chloro provides:

    1. Wild Growth
    2. Living Energy
    3. Radiant Spores
    4. Highest personal DPS of any healing soul
    5. Enhanced personal survivability (Raised in Nature, Living Aegis)
    6. Burning Fury (it's not in the Chloro soul, but it's an amazing ability Chloro has easy access to)

    As it is, Clerics are already in a precarious position as healers. You don't need to remove Chloro's ONLY SERIOUS WEAKNESS.
    Good points. I don't really know anything about mages, my mage is level 45 and I can't stand playing it.

    Just see a lot of mages complaining they can't heal each other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    The devs stated point-blank during Beta that this is not going to happen.

    People like to ignore the Chloro's greatest strength: it can easily swap between being one of the game's greatest AOE healers and one of the game's greatest tank healers in one GCD. There has to be a drawback to just stacking Chloros or many of the Clerics' souls would be redundant.

    In addition, unlike Clerics, Chloro provides:

    1. Wild Growth
    2. Living Energy
    3. Radiant Spores
    4. Highest personal DPS of any healing soul
    5. Enhanced personal survivability (Raised in Nature, Living Aegis)
    6. Burning Fury (it's not in the Chloro soul, but it's an amazing ability Chloro has easy access to)

    As it is, Clerics are already in a precarious position as healers. You don't need to remove Chloro's ONLY SERIOUS WEAKNESS.
    Couldn't have said it any better. Saying it's only fair they heal each other because Clerics can is ignoring all the Chloro's strengths over a Cleric. If they healed each other you would only use a Cleric healer on events that required burst healing, which isn't many. I hope there are more in the future.

  9. #9
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misun View Post
    Just see a lot of mages complaining they can't heal each other.
    They're the same people that complained about Pyro being too hard and Warlock too weak. Now Pyro is unspeakably bad and Warlock is our best ranged DPS with about 2 buttons you have to push. Chloro is the most versatile healing soul in PvE and has finally been turned back into a viable PvP healing soul. It's in an extremely strong position and any buff is just going to result in a lot more Chloros and many fewer Mage DPS. Considering that our calling has 1 healing soul and Clerics have 4, that's not a result we should be seeking.

    Mages are already top melee DPS and solid ranged DPS, necessary healers, and necessary support for raid content. Our ranged DPS for PvP needs to be saved and it'd be nice to have options other than Warlock for PvE. A buff to Chloros is about the last thing we need (right after a buff to Harbinger).

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    Haven't raided much in SL yet, but for aoe healing cleric -icar specs had way, way higher dps before SL and they healed each other just fine. So the argument that chloros have high dps for a healer is invalid.

    I can see the argument that we can swap from tank healing to raid healing with 1 GCD, and since the change to separate veil healing from damage we don't have to set up a hybrid spec with damage increasers to maximize our raid healing any more. But still, we only have 1 heal soul, so that 1 soul has to be able to do both single target and aoe. Clerics have 4 (5 with justi) healing souls, allowing for a much more specialized set of builds. So I feel those even out a bit, though I'll grant chloros the advantage here.

    Chloros also have more raid utility than clerics (though some of it is overwritten by others), but that is balanced by fewer cooldowns to keep a tank alive.

    So in the end, I feel like there's not that much more in favour of chloros over clerics to justify not being able to heal each other with our aoe heals.
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  11. #11
    Plane Walker DaCommando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vayra View Post
    Haven't raided much in SL yet, but for aoe healing cleric -icar specs had way, way higher dps before SL and they healed each other just fine. So the argument that chloros have high dps for a healer is invalid.
    Well, thats not the case anymore. Also, mages had chloro/pyro that was a beast dps and hps (also, not the case anymore). Currently, beside defiler, non other healing roles do any sort of dps beside chloro. 3-4k more dps can mean the difference between wiping to enrage at 1% or actually beating the boss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vayra View Post
    I can see the argument that we can swap from tank healing to raid healing with 1 GCD, and since the change to separate veil healing from damage we don't have to set up a hybrid spec with damage increasers to maximize our raid healing any more. But still, we only have 1 heal soul, so that 1 soul has to be able to do both single target and aoe. Clerics have 4 (5 with justi) healing souls, allowing for a much more specialized set of builds. So I feel those even out a bit, though I'll grant chloros the advantage here.

    Chloros also have more raid utility than clerics (though some of it is overwritten by others), but that is balanced by fewer cooldowns to keep a tank alive.

    So in the end, I feel like there's not that much more in favour of chloros over clerics to justify not being able to heal each other with our aoe heals.
    I wont go into much details as others already explained it, but i will put this from a PvP perspective, lets say you have a raid full of chloros that can heal each other through veils. Since pretty much they r the only healers that can heal and dps, it will take a while, but eventually they will manage to kill the other team and they wont die. Back when synth was bugged, u could easily tank anything as chloro/lock with LGV up and have another 51 chloro synth you. Was just ridiculous (tanking Prince in HK was a good example).
    Retired

  12. #12
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    This restriction has been around for a very long time, and for good reason.
    Trunks pretty much covered everything so I don't need to repeat what he's said.

    Chloros being able to cross-heal would be very, very bad for the game.
    Nope.

  13. #13
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    First of all i don't need answers saying i am doing things wrong, i played the chloro for over 2 years, and there is nothing i do not know about chloro healing, and i can blow hps out of my nose if needed and i don't need any advice on how to heal. I can assure you that i have the knowledge
    My personal view and what i can and can not do is not the point here, so please do not make it that way. This is about chloros veils and not my veils.

    Further more, this was not about clerics verses chloros place in a raid, which i also clearly stated. I see no need to remove clerics from raids they have just as much good heal to add as chloro do. If your a good team, you can produce magic together in raids.

    So back to topic, this is about the veils and the fact that we can not heal chloros with our base healing tool. Now this is of course possible to deal with, i never said anything against that, but i don't see why we should have to deal with it, why we have to have a cleric that is babysitting us, because we as healer can not heal the other chloros with our base healing, we have to depend on clerics for this. Why are we made that special so that we have to have special people looking after us. The focus should be on the tank and the raid as a group, not the tank, the group and the chloros.

    Someone brought up manna, and yes Mages have it somewhat easier to get manna, but don't forget that you actually need to reduce your health to get the manna, and in a raid content where your health is reduced anyway and you know you can not be healed properly, it is not something you just throw out there, as it was before Stormlegion.

    I actually manage to kill my self the other day due to manna regeneration at crucia. It was a stupid misstake and will probably not happen again, but i miscalculated when damage was coming in and in this short second of time when i saw the puri shielding me and the tank was not going to be hit by breath until a few sec, i hammered away on Essence Conversion, and the ability lag we have on icewatch made me hammer a little bit to much, and BOOM spike damage to raid and i am dead. Stupid mistake and my own fault, but never the less, manna is something we need to manage as well.

    Clerics are able to heal through the raid contents with their manna pool as it is. They have it much harder, i do not say anything about that, but never the less they manage and there is also supporters helping them out adding manna, and just as the mages you also have pots and food, so i don't see manna as a argument to why the veils should not heal other chloros.

    As for pvp under pressure trying to keep your self alive, i will not hit that button that will reduce the health i am fighting so hard to keep up, it would be rather stupid if i did
    And if we look beyond manna in PvP then for example 3 clerics can easy keep them self, other clerics and the rest of the team up. 3 chloros without any cleric healing them whilst under pressure, will struggle keeping them self and the other chloros up, not to mention the group it self due to lack of veil heal.This might even change the outcome of the warfront.

    And dps and cleric healing, well i am not an expert on clerics, but i met many cleric healing with higher dps then the chloros. I saw a week back in a dungeon a cleric healer doing 7 k dps and kept us up (no other hps was going out except for the warrior tanks selfheal). It blew my mind when i saw it. So dps is not really a valid reason to why chloros should not be able to base heal chloros.

    Also someone added that chloros have so much to bring to the table, well lets be fair here instead of trying to run my points over with something that is not really valid. Because yes there is much a chloro bring to a raid, but the reason is very simple, we only have one heal soul, so you will have to pack everything in to that soul.

    Now if we look at all the cleric healing souls including defiler your 6 points list with things a chloro can bring to a raid is rather short.
    And this is the clerics strength. You can adjust to any given heal situation, were chloros can only use their only soul. The chloro is a good and strong soul no doubt about that, but never the less, we lack of several things, such as a useful damage reduction and shields and more.
    And cross heal? Why is this bad when chloros do it, but not when clerics do? I mean really?

    Meh this became very long, so i just go off here, and i do it by saying that i still feel there is no valid reason brought up that explain why chloros can not heal other chloros with their veils. I would still love for the Mage developer to actually explain why this is not removed and still hope there will be a answer.

  14. #14
    Champion of Telara Nnnxia's Avatar
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    I think it is possible to allow veils to heal each other but Trion has to be smart about it and introduce some kind of diminishing returns if implemented or it would be OP.

    Maybe if there are 2 veils in raid each chloro acts at 50% veil efficiency to each other

    If there are 3, 33%

    4, 25%
    5, 20%
    etc.

  15. #15
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    I'd like to see veils healing other chloros. However, as a third party (not a mage), there would have to be a few changes.

    1. Chloros would have to lose the endurance increasing talent. They wouldn't need the extra health any longer and it'd probably end up being OP.
    2. There would have to be some reason for wardens to remain a part of an optimal raid set up. Yes, wardens would still be important for 2 or 3 of the 9 bosses, but if this happened chloros would be replacing all wardens on every other boss. Just for the added dps/wild growth and beautiful hps that they bring. It wouldn't be fair to clerics to have their only worth being a puri or a defiler.

    But with all that being said, I'd like for my chloros to be able to heal each other.

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