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Thread: Warlock Feedback - Brief and to the Point

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
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    Default Warlock Feedback - Brief and to the Point

    Contaminate -

    The principle is nice, but the problem is that warlock damage builds
    slowly as it is. Adding this prerequisite means the dps build-up is even
    more slowly than before. I basically have to spam some direct damage spell
    (or DoT's) in order to build enough charge to be able to turn on
    Contaminate then apply my DoTs full damage. It's awkward and, like I said,
    slows down the damage build-up of an already back-loaded damage class.
    If suggestions are welcome, I'd suggest removing the charge requirement and
    simply make it a toggle that increases the damage at the expense of
    not generating charge.

    Additionally, spamming Contaminate can proc Opportunity. I don't think this is intended, but it's a mild bug.


    Neddra's Torture -

    Great ability, this is just like Unstable Affliction in WoW. However,
    silence in Rift PVP has a much more severe diminishing returns system than
    in WoW. As such, the silence isn't very threatening. What would be much
    more effective is if Neddra's Torture purged a number of buffs from the
    cleanser. For example, removes "x" buffs, or an entire stack of buffs or
    something.


    Conflux

    Conflux in PvP seems flaky. I've popped it on players several times, but
    cannot find the damage it dealt in my damage log. It definitely consumes
    my DoTs... I'm not sure what's happening.
    More testing is needed, methinks.


    PvP DoTs and Seeping Corruption

    DoTs in PVP still hit for far too little damage. I'm now able to toss on a
    bunch of DoTs on my opponents over 5 seconds, but they each hit for small
    numbers, anywhere between 80-150 damage per tick. Since DoT damage is
    already protracted, I don't think it should suffer the same penalty as
    instant damage. It would be really nice to see Seeping Corruption also
    ignore a % of valor.
    Last edited by Billy Pilgrim; 10-23-2012 at 11:57 AM.

  2. #2
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    I concur!

    My rotation:

    Void Bolt --> 100 charge
    Contaminate > Defile > Dark Touch > Atrophy > Necrosis > Life Leech (lucky to have have 15 charge left)
    Void Bolt until Defile is about to fall off
    Persist
    Void Bolt until dots about to fall off
    Empowered Darkness (if I have 100 charge, otherwise I'll instantly go to 0 due to Defile drain)
    Conflux
    Repeat

    Essentially, 20-25s of bad DPS followed by 16s of good DPS.

    Issues:

    Conflux is weak, practical only every 30s or so, and requires substantial build-up. As such, its damage should be on par with Fulminate (15k), or Lightning Burst (10k), or at least Cinder Burst (8k). Instead it does a paltry 5.5k. We're better off casting another Void Decimation-amped Void Bolt for 4k and letting the dots have their final tick.

    Persist does not refresh the Nyx's Warlock Crystal buff. Kervik's last response on the issue was that he was looking into it. Is there an update on that?

    Contaminate and Defile do not play nicely together at all. Defile also makes it impossible to build up enough charge to cast Empower Darkness (unless we get some lucky opportunity procs). Without Magical Affinity, Warlock can't function at all; even with it, things are still too tight.

    Suggestions (any of the below, obviously not all in combination):

    * Casting Conflux, in addition to its other effects, increases your charge regen by 100% for 10 seconds.
    * Magical Affinity reduces the cost of charge-consuming abilities by 10/20/30%; effectively making Empowered Darkness cost 52 charge, each use of Contaminate cost 7 charge, and Defile cost less ...
    * Remove the charge requirement from Empowered Darkness altogether, as it only has 25% uptime.
    * Draining Bolt makes Life Leech insta-cast if cast within 5 seconds (and it would be on the 1s gcd w/ Swift Corruption).

    Of course ... I am guessing this soul is balanced around 61 point Warlock. Being able to extend dot time with Void Barrage by another 16s definitely changes the equation, makes Empowered Darkness useful again, and who cares if we're spending some time re-apply dots every 45-50s.

    Edit: correction, between Void Barrage and Persist, it seems like we'll have 100% dot uptime after initial ramp-up. So yeah, this soul is definitely balanced around that.
    Last edited by Morank; 10-23-2012 at 01:25 PM.

  3. #3
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    Conflux is intended to be a finisher to polish off an opponent low on health. It's not intended to be used in a rotation, nor is it intended to be analogous to Fulminate. It's really more akin to Inferno and does similar damage.

    Conflux is brilliant IMO - of course I preferred to call it Apoptosis when I was suggesting the idea some time back (alas we users don't get to pick the names).

    I agree the soul is designed upon a 61 point build maintaining 100% uptime on DoTs. However, I feel it's still too much ramp-up time to get the full-damage DoTs going before you start smothering the DPS burger with Void Bolt sauce. It's got like 20 seconds of ramp-up time, which makes the rotation 100% useless on anything short of a boss fight.
    Last edited by Billy Pilgrim; 10-23-2012 at 02:14 PM.

  4. #4
    Plane Walker
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    Probably most souls are balanced around lvl 60 specs. If you count the points for 60-lvl (you get 76) there you can get a "Defilemancer" with heatwave for example. That is one spec alot of ppl wanna go away from so lets check other combinations you could get at 60.

    You can get the 61 pointer that essentially according to tooltip is another Persist which would make you never even having to spend charge on Contaminate since refreshing with Persist doesnt steal charge. That would make you have 16 seconds dots with 2 refreshes on 30 sec cd. Pretty perfect right?

    As for the dps I dunno but if you check playability in the soul, you will get a version much like the old Defilemancer and then 61 version which focuses on other things than dot juggling and then probably some low-point warlock specs. It seems to me to be a very nice soul with both easy and hard rotations available.

  5. #5
    Shadowlander
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    Default Too long to ramp up

    The issue still remains at 61 points into warlock. Looking at the other skills, it doesn't matter if I can refresh the DoT's or even have the ability to take DoT's off one target to apply later, or to another. It still takes much too long to get the damage going in the first place. And unless you are fighting a boss, the amount of time it takes isn't very reasonable.

    I personally like to PvP, and have found that I enjoy using it to some extent. But Goodness forbid someone starts to attack me and I have to turn to fight them, I'm dead. Even with Nedras essence giving me the damage reduction. We don't take enough damage as mages, nor do we have the healing capability to survive.

    Even if I decide to take the build into dungeons or raids, I find that I'm stuck using another build for "trash mobs" if I want to be of any effectiveness because I have to get DoT's up, then spread them just to do damage that is still lacking compared to the other DPS'ers there. Boss fights are the only time we get to shine because they last long enough to get a good rotation going.

    There's still much that needs to be considered for the soul in my opinion. Maybe having a skill that can apply your DoT's instantly maybe? It sounds harsh, but considering how little damage they really do (mainly in PvP) it wouldn't be overpowered at all.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlisle143 View Post
    The issue still remains at 61 points into warlock. Looking at the other skills, it doesn't matter if I can refresh the DoT's or even have the ability to take DoT's off one target to apply later, or to another. It still takes much too long to get the damage going in the first place. And unless you are fighting a boss, the amount of time it takes isn't very reasonable.

    <snip>

    Even if I decide to take the build into dungeons or raids, I find that I'm stuck using another build for "trash mobs" if I want to be of any effectiveness because I have to get DoT's up, then spread them just to do damage that is still lacking compared to the other DPS'ers there. Boss fights are the only time we get to shine because they last long enough to get a good rotation going.
    We already have a good (2 now) AoE soul(s), so I'm not terribly hurt if Warlock isn't as effective at trash AoE. That being said, wouldn't it be nice if devouring shadows increased in damage based upon the number of DoTs on your targets?


    Quote Originally Posted by Carlisle143 View Post
    There's still much that needs to be considered for the soul in my opinion. Maybe having a skill that can apply your DoT's instantly maybe? It sounds harsh, but considering how little damage they really do (mainly in PvP) it wouldn't be overpowered at all.
    I really am not a fan of having 1 button that suddenly applies all my DoTs. It just doesn't seem fun.

    Heck, as it is Kervik kind of made the class herpty-derpty by giving us two abilities that refresh our DoTs for us. Possibly even 3, if Salvage Corruption reapplies the DoTs as though they were new.


    In PVP I've always envisioned warlocks to be a pressure class - one with really strong survivability and great sustained damage through DoTs. The problem, though, is Valor. Valor was created to slow down the pace of PvP so that players don't get insta-gibbed. Of course, much like <insert politician's name here>, Valor really hasn't achieved its goal. People right now are getting insta-gibbed, but that's for another thread.

    The thing is, DoTs by their nature slow down the pace of PvP. Players die slowly with DoTs on them, not instantly. So taxing DoT damage with Valor really makes little sense as no one is going to explode instantly from DoT damage. At the very least it makes sense to apply a different damage reduction factor to DoTs than instant damage. However, I haven't seen that happen at all in the past 1+ years of this game, so I'm not holding my breath.

    With valor the way it is, DoTs do extremely little damage and are easily cleansed or simply healed through by HoTs. In PvP a single HoT should never outpace DoT damage. If the design were anything other than this, then there would be no need to even have cleansing available in PvP - you just power-heal through the DoT damage. In PvP players should be scared of dying if they have 4-5 DoTs on them. Right now 4 or 5 DoTs on a player amount to nothing more than screen clutter.
    Last edited by Billy Pilgrim; 10-23-2012 at 04:33 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Pilgrim View Post
    Conflux is intended to be a finisher to polish off an opponent low on health. It's not intended to be used in a rotation, nor is it intended to be analogous to Fulminate. It's really more akin to Inferno and does similar damage.
    I don't know if your statement about it being analogous to Inferno is correct, but based on its relatively low damage and the ability to have 100% dot uptime ... I see no reason to cast it. After all, it only hits slightly harder than Void Bolt with full Void Decimation.

    Also, it seems like this spec is going to become ultra-boring (on the same level as Elementalist right now) once we hit 60 ... one macro and a cooldown to hit every 30 seconds ... woo.

    /facepalm

    Do the people who design these souls really think we want to mash one button? Is that their concept of good soul design?

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    Also, it seems like this spec is going to become ultra-boring (on the same level as Elementalist right now) once we hit 60 ... one macro and a cooldown to hit every 30 seconds ... woo.
    No macro will work for 8 instant cast dots without CDs.

    And yes, warlock for PvE is terrible. After 5 minutes on dummies :
    51 pyro 15 archon = 4,5k
    51 ele 15 necro = ~4,4k
    51 warlock 15 necro = ~3,9

    And believe me, I'm the biggest fan of warlock soul, I tried many rotations. It just doesn't wokr anymore.
    However... in PvP the situation is different. Even though there is no CC but a FEAR I'm pretty sure I'm able to kill most of people in 1v1. Of course, I'm not talking about some crappy cleric in a crappy duel where he can cleanse all of my dots each time I put one.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mejaia View Post
    No macro will work for 8 instant cast dots without CDs.
    Where are you getting 8 from?

    Neddra's Grasp and Neddra's Torture don't seem to be considered dots, because they don't increase Void Decimation or Conflux damage and aren't refreshed by Persist. Given that, and the fact they do relatively little damage, it seems to me they're just debuffs useful mostly for PvP when you're spending more time running for your life than hard-casting Void Bolt.

    Besides, it doesn't matter how many dots there are, because, at 60, once they're up, you just refresh them with one button every 15 seconds. The rest of the time is LOL Void Bolt with the occasional Empowered Darkness or Draining Bolt (if that is worth casting, not sure).

  10. #10
    Soulwalker
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    I'm getting different parses from other people on this thread. If anything, I'm scoring higher in 51 lock/15 necro than I am scoring from 51 pyro/15 arch, 2.8k with lock and 2.5k with pyro on dummy. To the guy who responded second, spamming void bolt to get to 100 charge seems really foolish. The lock is built around your dots, get them up!

    My rotation (I so hate that term) more goes like: Sacrifice life:damage > life leech > neddra's grasp > neddra's torture > defile > dark touch > necrosis > atrophy > void bolt until about 3 seconds on dots, then empowered darkness (It can be touch and go as to whether or not this can be activated at this point, if not contaminate) > persist. Next time dots about to drop hit contaminate and refresh all the dots, carry on in a similar fashion until I can use the goodness that is damage buff + persist, followed by void bolt spam/neddra's grasp spam (I have the two macroed to the same key). As others have said, when we get void barrage it'll be even easier. If you want to get even more sneaky, radiate death also resets the timer on the dots it spreads ;)

    I find it somewhat amusing neddra's grasp has been derided as a poor damage additive, considering even enemy mob autoattacks will trigger it. In my estimation, it's worth about 1.5 - 2 void bolts with max dots up. Seems silly to not have it in the rotation. Neddra's torture too. The point is, it's another bit of damage, does a bit more than void bolt, only has 1 second cd, and if it does get purged yay, more damage (speaking from pve, I don't pvp). As for conflux, yeah in my estimation it's an atrocious ability, especially as it consumes all your dots, massive opportunity (and hence dps) cost, and gives next to nothing in return.

    As for suggestions, sorry Morank but a lot of yours I disagree with, outside of reducing the charge cost of empowered darkness. My suggestions would be:

    1) Add greater synergy between lock and necro souls, especially as you're adding necrosis into the mix of things that are influenced by lock talents (radiate death, void decimation etc). It may be too op, but give deep locks a way to get deathly calling without the pet. Then we've got another ability to use off the bat (desecrate). Hell, make grave rot add stacks like it used to, then we can include that in our mix, and as it's death it'd synergise well with the rest of lock. It would also make going deeper into necro than 15 more useful (corpse talon would be useful to us then, for example). As it stands, we're going to have 3-4 points to throw elsewhere, probably into pyro, as the rest of the necro abilities improve the pets, and who cares about our pathetic little lvl 30 pet? (though one of the guys in our guild still pulls it out, purely to use desecrate).

    2) If 1) isn't going to go anywhere, add another damage ability at 54. Otherwise I can't see locks continuing to be able to go toe to toe with pyros. To have that kind of ability as our 54 talent seems rather weak considering rogues and warriors just do it (well, semi do it) as part of their thing.

    3) Make contaminate automatically overriden by another damage buff. It's annoying to have to toggle it off to allow use of sacrifice life:damage.

    4) Though playing might change the impression of this, the length of time salvage corruption lasts seems too short. It seems like it's designed to allow rapid changing of targets once every 30 seconds. Can't it last longer then, so locks can auto-dot something on the next pull, say, last 1 minute? Heh, though I can see some locks duelling guildies, salvaging then throwing it all on a boss straight away if that came to pass.

    So, in short, lock is a competitive dps spec, though it does suffer from long wind-up, though it does have minor self-healing, a good oh-s**t button, and mobility our pyro friends can't match.

  11. #11
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    Reread atrophy, im pretty sure you have to time persist for right after atrophy falls off since it ramps up damage over the duration and therefore you cant afford to clip the final tick. I was starting my dot rotation(once the crystal was active) with atrophy, so that i could let it time out, persist, then recast it.

    Which is beside the point, warlock as is is horrible at dps, and the charge management with contaminate and defile and empowered darkness is at least as bad as defilemancer was.

    Warlock feels better as a sub-soul to pyro or necro than it does on its own. Maybe the 58 dot will fix that but in the meantime...

  12. #12
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    Contaminate and Defile do not play nicely together at all.
    Understatement of the day! Its one or the other in my experience.

  13. #13
    Sword of Telara utterchaos's Avatar
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    I had a huge write up on the first beta boards about warlock PVE wise. Here is the short version:

    I don't use nedd grasp in a rotation unless i got multiple mobs(like a rift event) and i am using Radiate death to spread it.

    I also don't use nedd torture in a ST build either.

    IF you don't cheese it before every pull and build up charge using multiple Devouring shadows casts:
    I open up life leech/sac life/void bolt for charge/defile/atrophy,dark touch/contaiminate with necrosis then use contaiminate with dot weaving for here on in then pop saclife for 8 second of void bolt spam(draining bolt when its off cooldown) before contaiminate/persist combo then back to void volt rinse and repeat. Defile charge drain is a bit over the top. Makes empowered darkness alot toughier to use then it needs to be.

    I don't even spec for empowered darkness, too much of a hassle if timing is just a hair off or any lag.

    On the beta server i mentioned in 50 chat about warlock to Daglar and got the token wait until level 60 when people figure out rotations better etc answer. I begged for defile to have its charge restriction removed, there is no need of it, you can only cast it on 1 target at a time. And the damage is on par with Atrophy which can be cast on more then 1 target. (yes its a bit further in the lock tree by 8 whole talent points.)

    Spec i run now and having fun just wish it got those little tweaks, i don't want to play Harbringer in expansion.
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0z...dqz.xzs0V.c.-9

    I hit 5700-5900 dps self buffed at level 55 last night on test dummy
    I want to see the light leave your eyes
    Feeling your breath on my lips one last time
    I want to see the light leave your eyes.
    Feeling your breath for the last time.
    God rest your soul is mine....

  14. #14
    Rift Disciple Quarolise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Pilgrim View Post
    We already have a good (2 now) AoE soul(s), so I'm not terribly hurt if Warlock isn't as effective at trash AoE. That being said, wouldn't it be nice if devouring shadows increased in damage based upon the number of DoTs on your targets?




    I really am not a fan of having 1 button that suddenly applies all my DoTs. It just doesn't seem fun.

    Heck, as it is Kervik kind of made the class herpty-derpty by giving us two abilities that refresh our DoTs for us. Possibly even 3, if Salvage Corruption reapplies the DoTs as though they were new.


    In PVP I've always envisioned warlocks to be a pressure class - one with really strong survivability and great sustained damage through DoTs. The problem, though, is Valor. Valor was created to slow down the pace of PvP so that players don't get insta-gibbed. Of course, much like <insert politician's name here>, Valor really hasn't achieved its goal. People right now are getting insta-gibbed, but that's for another thread.

    The thing is, DoTs by their nature slow down the pace of PvP. Players die slowly with DoTs on them, not instantly. So taxing DoT damage with Valor really makes little sense as no one is going to explode instantly from DoT damage. At the very least it makes sense to apply a different damage reduction factor to DoTs than instant damage. However, I haven't seen that happen at all in the past 1+ years of this game, so I'm not holding my breath.

    With valor the way it is, DoTs do extremely little damage and are easily cleansed or simply healed through by HoTs. In PvP a single HoT should never outpace DoT damage. If the design were anything other than this, then there would be no need to even have cleansing available in PvP - you just power-heal through the DoT damage. In PvP players should be scared of dying if they have 4-5 DoTs on them. Right now 4 or 5 DoTs on a player amount to nothing more than screen clutter.
    Singed!!
    warlock needs to be pvp viable, i'm rly sick of all these dom speccs in pvp at the moment... although the new dom is quite funny in conquest but i love dot's so.... warlock ftw!

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple Godmoney's Avatar
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    I really think warlock is a beast in PVP, and i have a fun time playing it now. Spreading all those dots, and seeing all those numbers across my screen is quit satisfying, I am happy with what they have done with the soul for PVP. I am right at the top for damage almost every time. And it does very well in duals.

    1. i would like to see Neddra's Essence have a 2min cd instead of 3min. that's the only thing that will keep you alive during uber warrior damage time. or mob.

    2. Conflux either needs to hit harder or not remove dots. maybe it should work like inferno. you could use it with Draining Bolt and hit your opponent for 2k together, maybe. its an ok finisher for pvp

    Phobia is awsome. 49lock/9necro/8arc

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