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Thread: Itemization - More Linear or Upside Down?

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    Telaran Safonz's Avatar
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    Default Itemization - More Linear or Upside Down?

    So we've all seen the itemization changes 1.7 brought, obviously giving far greater boosts to lower content gear then end game. While i disagree with the whole idea for a few reasons, things like this just don't make sense.

    As all mages know, you can't stay under the crit cap even if you try so crit is boardline useless, and you are actually losing spell power by purchasing the nyx chest piece. How is a 10 man T1 drop better than something that takes you 100 greater marks to purchase?

    Final Boss from DH Chest "Ragtide Robes"
    37 int
    25 wis
    27 SP
    13 ENd
    15 Crit
    Total stat SP - 58

    Nyx Chest Piece from HK 100 greater marks
    51 int
    26 wis
    18 SP
    26 crit
    18 end
    Total Stat SP - 54

    Please lets keep the discussion matter of fact and not get all raged out.

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    RIFT Guide Writer DaddyDaz's Avatar
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    my guildie has a T2 wand that is as good as my HK wand when comparing stats.

    Touch of Storms vs Maddening Flame
    ToS has 3 more spell power, and the Flame has 8 more crit after soft cap. i get a lil more mana, regen, and focus but could care less about any of that at the moment.

    this is garbage.. BiS mage items are full of cleric drops. what the hell do we have crit on our items for?
    Experience is the best teacher.. if you can afford the tuition.

  3. #3
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    i believe that the trion itemization department has not yet realized that after the soft crit cap, any items with just +crit on them are basically vendor garbage. Wands, rings, token+relic boots. all the crit we need we pretty much get from our INT.
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    Prophet of Telara BrownsMageNerfDelivery's Avatar
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    There does need to be more word from whoever is in charge of reitemization to mage concerns.

    Kervik's done an excellent job handling the mage calling as a class -- does he have any input on mage gear as it fits with the changes to itemization in 1.7?

    Even with a potential future raise to crit cap, crit is still relatively useless for end-game players as we passively get most of the crit we need from intelligence.

    So yes, there really does need to be a change to put more SP on items that are supposed to be best in slot (or at least better than previous tier gear). As it is now, this is not entirely the case and more changes need to be made.

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    RIFT Guide Writer DaddyDaz's Avatar
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    Josh York was the one heading off the 1.7 itemization changes on the PTS forums from what i see.

    http://forums.riftgame.com/members/josh-york.html
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    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealKillian View Post
    i believe that the trion itemization department has not yet realized that after the soft crit cap, any items with just +crit on them are basically vendor garbage. Wands, rings, token+relic boots. all the crit we need we pretty much get from our INT.
    I'm sure they're aware by now, and word or not, I'm sure they're working on it.

    The only bad thing is I'm also sure they were aware before they pushed 1.7, yet did so anyway.
    Last edited by Kazzin; 02-08-2012 at 01:15 PM.

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    Ascendant Vioarr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safonz View Post
    So we've all seen the itemization changes 1.7 brought, obviously giving far greater boosts to lower content gear then end game. While i disagree with the whole idea for a few reasons, things like this just don't make sense.

    As all mages know, you can't stay under the crit cap even if you try so crit is boardline useless, and you are actually losing spell power by purchasing the nyx chest piece. How is a 10 man T1 drop better than something that takes you 100 greater marks to purchase?

    Final Boss from DH Chest "Ragtide Robes"
    37 int
    25 wis
    27 SP
    13 ENd
    15 Crit
    Total stat SP - 58

    Nyx Chest Piece from HK 100 greater marks
    51 int
    26 wis
    18 SP
    26 crit
    18 end
    Total Stat SP - 54

    Please lets keep the discussion matter of fact and not get all raged out.

    Relic chest is a 2 SP and 5end upgrade over the DH chest, not to mention the armor and spell crit to avoid the "those don't matter" replies. That's why you spend 100 greater marks. You can argue that this is not significant enough but it's clearly not "upside down" as you asked.

    I agree that there should be discourse surrounding itemization but you are approaching it poorly.

  8. #8
    Prophet of Telara BrownsMageNerfDelivery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vioarr View Post
    Relic chest is a 2 SP and 5end upgrade over the DH chest, not to mention the armor and spell crit to avoid the "those don't matter" replies. That's why you spend 100 greater marks. You can argue that this is not significant enough but it's clearly not "upside down" as you asked.

    I agree that there should be discourse surrounding itemization but you are approaching it poorly.
    Cloth armor with slightly better armor is hardly going to save us from dying, nor is 45 more HP. If there were no crit cap, then 25 crit might be worth a few spell power.

    Moreover, the scale of difficulty between a piece that is easiest to obtain via raiding in HK or RotP and DH (where the Ragetide Robes drops) is enormous. To give a piece of loot from the latter instance more of our primary stat than a greater mark piece makes it seem like the itemization was intended to level the loot progression curve, not make it less exponential.

    SP is our primary stat because if we take anything other than unavoidable raid damage, we are, 95 percent of the time, dead.

    If anything, this change to itemization seems to make it seem pointless to raid the latest tier of content except to get whatever hit/focus items are needed for future instances, depriving people of the needed experience of raid mechanics from HK.

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    Telaran Safonz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownsMageNerfDelivery View Post
    If anything, this change to itemization seems to make it seem pointless to raid the latest tier of content except to get whatever hit/focus items are needed for future instances, depriving people of the needed experience of raid mechanics from HK.
    Yep. agree.

    http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...r-raiding.html
    Last edited by Safonz; 02-08-2012 at 02:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownsMageNerfDelivery View Post
    Cloth armor with slightly better armor is hardly going to save us from dying, nor is 45 more HP. If there were no crit cap, then 25 crit might be worth a few spell power.

    Moreover, the scale of difficulty between a piece that is easiest to obtain via raiding in HK or RotP and DH (where the Ragetide Robes drops) is enormous. To give a piece of loot from the latter instance more of our primary stat than a greater mark piece makes it seem like the itemization was intended to level the loot progression curve, not make it less exponential.

    SP is our primary stat because if we take anything other than unavoidable raid damage, we are, 95 percent of the time, dead.

    If anything, this change to itemization seems to make it seem pointless to raid the latest tier of content except to get whatever hit/focus items are needed for future instances, depriving people of the needed experience of raid mechanics from HK.
    Couldn't agree more. I posted this in the above link by Safonz...

    Ok so I've been reading a lot of people responding about the focus issues with going from T1 to T3. If I were to fully focus shard my T1 set my focus would come out to be 396, add a 20 focus rune in your planar and your g2g. Now in terms of stats *Comparing my HK gear that I have obtained in the last 7 months to the stats of the T1 gear I walked in there with.
    The difference between the 2 sets.....with the HK set I get and additional 158sp, 190 sc and atm I am only sitting at 388 focus so I will have to shard a piece or 2 with focus gear when DI comes out anyway.*Note-Neither set is or was BIS but both are the full mark pieces and the rest are drops from their respective tiers. Also This is for the mage class, So I do not know how other classes have changed with update and how well they scale with their gear.

    ^This is the point I was trying to make with my original post,I don't think the steps in gear are large enough now, which will make dungeons or at least part of dungeon progression pointless to do other than to say you have been there and kill said boss. Don't get me wrong I think that HK is a awesome dungeon I have enjoyed my time spent in there, I just don't feel from a strict gear perspective that it was worth my time.
    Last edited by Mustifar; 02-08-2012 at 06:40 PM.

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    Ascendant Vioarr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustifar View Post
    Ok so I've been reading a lot of people responding about the focus issues with going from T1 to T3. If I were to fully focus shard my T1 set my focus would come out to be 396, add a 20 focus rune in your planar and your g2g.
    As I posted in the other thread, 416 is not enough focus/hit for ID, sorry. Saying "close enough" won't cut it when you miss interrupts or otherwise botch mechanics that require hit/focus. Past that good luck meeting the DPS checks with T1 gear in addition to misses/resists.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrownsMageNerfDelivery View Post
    Cloth armor with slightly better armor is hardly going to save us from dying, nor is 45 more HP. If there were no crit cap, then 25 crit might be worth a few spell power.

    Moreover, the scale of difficulty between a piece that is easiest to obtain via raiding in HK or RotP and DH (where the Ragetide Robes drops) is enormous. To give a piece of loot from the latter instance more of our primary stat than a greater mark piece makes it seem like the itemization was intended to level the loot progression curve, not make it less exponential.

    SP is our primary stat because if we take anything other than unavoidable raid damage, we are, 95 percent of the time, dead.

    If anything, this change to itemization seems to make it seem pointless to raid the latest tier of content except to get whatever hit/focus items are needed for future instances, depriving people of the needed experience of raid mechanics from HK.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vioarr View Post
    Relic chest is a 2 SP and 5end upgrade over the DH chest, not to mention the armor and spell crit to avoid the "those don't matter" replies. That's why you spend 100 greater marks. You can argue that this is not significant enough but it's clearly not "upside down" as you asked.

    I agree that there should be discourse surrounding itemization but you are approaching it poorly.
    What some people don't seem to understand is that when you take those 45 hitpoints that BrownsMageWhatever says don't matter and spread it over an entire set of gear then it becomes more significant. I've never heard a raider argue that additional hitpoints don't matter. I suppose that's easy when you're used to the inflated stat gains between tiers in WoW and have no recollection of game such as Everquest where stat gains between tiers were more stable; this provided greater longevity for the game by not completely alienating new players with some Berlin stat wall added to the pile of stuff needed to get current that is already daunting. It makes balancing and design easier as well which will overall increase the quality of content and rate at which we see it released.

    This is all MMO 101 and it saddens me that I have to explain it.

    People can complain about soft caps only being an issue for mages but those people are wrong. Warriors and Rogues also hit their crit soft cap even while trying to stack AP.

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    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    As your healer I hate you for saying endurance doesn't matter. I can tell you who in my raid has high or low HP without ever having looked at the number. Just based on how hard they are to keep alive thru raid damage mechanics.

  13. #13
    Prophet of Telara BrownsMageNerfDelivery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vioarr View Post
    What some people don't seem to understand is that when you take those 45 hitpoints that BrownsMageWhatever says don't matter and spread it over an entire set of gear then it becomes more significant. I've never heard a raider argue that additional hitpoints don't matter.
    Allow me to elaborate. The issue centers around maybe 1-2 items that provide a significant number of primary stats while other end-game pieces remain best in slot. In this case, the chest piece of armor provides a significant chunk of SP and Int, and you can get better stats for this at the cost of armor rating (pointless) and endurance (which is HP loss, which can add up).

    This, however, is easily compensated for if one mindlessly runs around in warfronts to get a few pieces of PvP gear (as technically, by spellpower, the Soothsayer legs are best in slot and one does not sacrifice focus to get these).

    The main point is that a few select items in T1 raids are pretty close in terms of primary stats. In the case of the chest, the most difficult piece to upgrade to best in slot relic (which is best only by a few SP) is outperformed by a robe obtainable by bored, drunk raiders who decide to clear DH real quick.

    I'm not saying that people can forgo raiding HK to get better SP gear at the cost of HP. I'm saying that there is a disconnect between effort and reward, and while I understand Trion is trying to make gear progression more linear, making end game relics BARELY best in slot and putting crit on our gear is not a good way to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vioarr View Post
    Warriors and Rogues also hit their crit soft cap even while trying to stack AP.
    While I voice this complaint as a mage in the mage forums (as opposed to the warrior forums), I don't see why this complaint does not apply in a similar fashion to warrior or rogue concerns about crit on end-game gear.

    My alt is a rogue and I am already dreading the prospect of going over soft cap with gear before buffs. And I would complain that several pieces of rogue gear from RotP are better because they have way more AP, yet force players to choose which ones are the best AP upgrades without sacrificing HK synergy.

    TL;DR: Don't be so patronizing with this whole "why do I have to explain this MMO 101" schtick. I'm complaining about mage concerns in the mage forums about mage itemization. Would you rather I complain in the warrior forums about this? I'm complaining about the gear progression in general.

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    Ascendant Vioarr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownsMageNerfDelivery View Post
    Allow me to elaborate. The issue centers around maybe 1-2 items that provide a significant number of primary stats while other end-game pieces remain best in slot. In this case, the chest piece of armor provides a significant chunk of SP and Int, and you can get better stats for this at the cost of armor rating (pointless) and endurance (which is HP loss, which can add up).

    This, however, is easily compensated for if one mindlessly runs around in warfronts to get a few pieces of PvP gear (as technically, by spellpower, the Soothsayer legs are best in slot and one does not sacrifice focus to get these).

    The main point is that a few select items in T1 raids are pretty close in terms of primary stats. In the case of the chest, the most difficult piece to upgrade to best in slot relic (which is best only by a few SP) is outperformed by a robe obtainable by bored, drunk raiders who decide to clear DH real quick.

    I'm not saying that people can forgo raiding HK to get better SP gear at the cost of HP. I'm saying that there is a disconnect between effort and reward, and while I understand Trion is trying to make gear progression more linear, making end game relics BARELY best in slot and putting crit on our gear is not a good way to do so.



    While I voice this complaint as a mage in the mage forums (as opposed to the warrior forums), I don't see why this complaint does not apply in a similar fashion to warrior or rogue concerns about crit on end-game gear.

    My alt is a rogue and I am already dreading the prospect of going over soft cap with gear before buffs. And I would complain that several pieces of rogue gear from RotP are better because they have way more AP, yet force players to choose which ones are the best AP upgrades without sacrificing HK synergy.

    TL;DR: Don't be so patronizing with this whole "why do I have to explain this MMO 101" schtick. I'm complaining about mage concerns in the mage forums about mage itemization. Would you rather I complain in the warrior forums about this? I'm complaining about the gear progression in general.
    This thread originated in the Dungeons&Raids forum and an open invitation provided by the OP for the discussion to continue here. Save the "this is the mage forums" crap for the trolls because this is not simply a "mage issue" and I don't care what your opinion is in regard to my participation. I have made two points clear in both threads that HK cannot be skipped and that itemization is not "upside down" while also allowing that, as devs have already stated, some items may require tweaking. This discussion is not about a single piece of gear being out of whack, this thread is a baseless extrapolation from one piece of gear as example. If the issue is with a few items then those items need to be provided to devs via feedback and/or a thread started specifically citing those items. If the issue is that you think stat gains are disproportionate to effort required for gear progression in general then this certainly is not just a mage discussion about mage itemization in the mage forums.

    TLDR: I disagree that there is an issue with the stat jump from T1 to T2 but I do agree that some items need to be looked at, especially in RotP.

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    Rift Chaser Proudfeet's Avatar
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    Raise the crit cap for mages or overhaul our gear nuff said.

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