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Thread: Back after two months; PVP Ow?

  1. #1
    Rift Master
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    Default Back after two months; PVP Ow?

    So played around for a couple of hours yesterday with the new stuff.

    My gear was great 2 months about, all P8, Source core, etc. Don't know how it holds up now. I maxed the PvP Planar PA so hope that was worth it.

    First thing I noticed was TTK was way up, either Healing was improved, more DR or just more HP, seemed like a combo of all three. Obviously no Overload and all that.

    Loved Stormcaller 2 months ago, seems like it's not too flash now given the new TTK, too much setup and not enough delayed damage effects to break through healing. And everyone's got AoE dmg redux it seems.

    Tried 51 Ele 15 SC in a few Whitefalls to see singletarget bursting potential, managed to get some KBs with the cooldowns and burst in that combo - Beat a seemingly good Warrior and lost to a good NB Rogue in some close 1v1s, so seems alright. Didn't get to try Pyro which may be better ST damage.

    Screamo was still on Briarcliff so spoke to him as he's a great pvper, reckoned Chloro/Dom and Pyro/Dom were pretty much the only real options left which makes sense with the changes. Any other non-Dom builds that work?

    I tried out SC/Dom mostly in Black Garden because I really like the whole SC thing and without Archmage as an option I could grab Mental Shock and the SC air dmg boosts. Mainly just trying to mess with people casting Storm Shackle/TI combos and debuff spam, draining energy and Mana. Shackle was hitting 1.7k crits, My Lightning Fields were about 1k AoE., Shock 800.

    What sort of numbers do Pyrodoms pull at the moment? Mainly interested in the Storm Shackle dmg as stacking a whole bunch of simultaneous and assisting dmg seems to be the only way to kill people in BG at the moment.

  2. #2
    lgw
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    1.7 = Dom or Die

    Pure Dom if you want to be most effective for your team.
    Pyro/Dom if you still want to do at least a bit of Pew Pew. (Played SC/Dom for a looong time, but Spark, Flicker and FB synergie are just too good these days.)
    Chloro/Dom if you don't mind being less effective but hate dying.

    B!tch order in 1.7: Cleric (healing) >>> Rogues (any) > Cleric (damage/hybrid) >> Mages (Dom) > Warriors (any) > Mages (damage)
    Last edited by lgw; 02-06-2012 at 04:51 AM.

  3. #3
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    Pyro/lock is still an effective spec.

    Deep warlock just cannot cut it. Warlock DoT damage is practically useless. You'll have to play around and see which you prefer, but pyro/lock/0 archon and pyro/lock/ele are all pretty effective. In order to make your defensive cooldowns effective, you need to keep your 10 stacks of archon buffs up for protection.

  4. #4
    Telaran
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    Yes pyro/lock is still viable as it was before, personally I like doing a 25ish lock w/pyro; the mobility of it fits my playstyle and neddra's grasp hits hard enough (2-3 hundred on crits) if you cast it with the flame bolt proc and internalize charge up.

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    lgw
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    I don't buy Pyro/Lock...

    Sustained damage is much less relevant in PVP, and it comes from DOTs in that spec -- and DOTs in PVP are outright bad right now, outside acting as filler when moving.
    Your burst comes largely from Opportunity procs when chain casting Fireball, which is a bad idea in the first place.

    Defensive wise the CDs are much too long, Neddras does hardly anything anymore, Shadow just makes enemy Rogues happy and getting off Reconstruct mid-combat is extremely situational. And Mortality... wow, w/o 44 Mass Fear GL managing even one tick of healing.

    Now look at 51 Pyro / 12 Ele / 3 Archo, which has much better burst instants and gets his mitigation from +- 55% to +- 65% (that's HUGE), and I fail to see the point in Pyro/Lock.
    That's still just a damage spec, but you at least don't bend over once some real DPS looks at you funny, hence giving your Clerics the chance to push their heals. That way you stay up long enough to fish for some procs and assist / finish some people.

    ... or you leave DPS / bursting to about any other class, who (talk about world being upside-down) does it better these days. As Pyro/Dom you still can piss on people in enough ways, and once somebody drops low you can poly his healer (mouseover macro is your friend) and use the mini-Heatwave to finish him -- and that is some little niche we have left these days.
    Last edited by lgw; 02-06-2012 at 06:13 AM.

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    Banned overbyte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    I don't buy Pyro/Lock...

    Your burst comes largely from Opportunity procs when chain casting Fireball, which is a bad idea in the first place.

    Defensive wise the CDs are much too long, Neddras does hardly anything anymore, Shadow just makes enemy Rogues happy and getting off Reconstruct mid-combat is extremely situational. And Mortality... wow, w/o 44 Mass Fear GL managing even one tick of healing.
    What you just described is not at all how you play a pyro/lock. It's pretty much a listing of how not to play pyro/lock.

    Opportunity procs aren't the sole source of burst, but they work well into a finishing sequence when combined with Countdown, Flame Bolt, Draining Bolt, Dark Fury and Inferno. Pre-1.7 it was a brutally effective spec. Post 1.7 patch 1, it's not quite as powerful, but is still very effective and maintains all of its mobility.

    Regarding survivability, pyro/locks have much more survivability than deep pyro.

    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Now look at 51 Pyro / 12 Ele / 3 Archo, which has much better burst instants and gets his mitigation from +- 55% to +- 65% (that's HUGE), and I fail to see the point in Pyro/Lock.
    There's very little difference between -10% damage mitigation (ele) and +10% more HP (warlock). If your base health is, say 8000hp, 10% extra damage mitigation means I have to deal 8800 damage (effectively) to you to kill you. With warlocks, you simply get 8800 hp.

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    lgw
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    Quote Originally Posted by overbyte View Post
    What you just described is not at all how you play a pyro/lock. It's pretty much a listing of how not to play pyro/lock.

    Opportunity procs aren't the sole source of burst, but they work well into a finishing sequence when combined with Countdown, Flame Bolt, Draining Bolt, Dark Fury and Inferno. Pre-1.7 it was a brutally effective spec. Post 1.7 patch 1, it's not quite as powerful, but is still very effective and maintains all of its mobility.

    Regarding survivability, pyro/locks have much more survivability than deep pyro.
    Then how play it ?
    Because FB->DB->FlameB hits like a wet noodle these days - in particular compared to the option to replace DB with Cinder-proc or Fulmi. And DOTing (the advantage Pyro/Lock has over deep Pyro) is crap in PVP this days.


    There's very little difference between -10% damage mitigation (ele) and +10% more HP (warlock). If your base health is, say 8000hp, 10% extra damage mitigation means I have to deal 8800 damage (effectively) to you to kill you. With warlocks, you simply get 8800 hp.
    That math is very, very wrong -- but who cares ? The same problem I've been explaining since months...
    I'll explain after getting my dinner.

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    51 pyro/15 lock/ 0 arch and call it a day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrial View Post
    51 pyro/15 lock/ 0 arch and call it a day.
    I prefer 51pyro/10lock/5archon personally. I actually have 5 souls devoted to pvp builds to swap to depending on what my group needs.

    1) 51pyro/10lock/5archon
    2) 36pyro/30dom/0arch
    3) 38dom/28chloro/0arch
    4) 33dom/33archon/0chloro
    5) 51chloro/15lock/0arch*

    51 pyro has the most killing power, if you have a good team it's my favorite.

    *chloros are gimped right now in pvp so I try not to heal anymore, not because I don't want to help my team, but because we don't have the tools for the job
    Last edited by Sonneillon; 02-06-2012 at 12:59 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Hmm, can anyone post links to some of these builds.

    Preferably Pyro/Dom

    EDIT: Or Pyro/Lock
    Last edited by AnAcuteAngle; 02-06-2012 at 01:06 PM.

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple Sonneillon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnAcuteAngle View Post
    Hmm, can anyone post links to some of these builds.

    Preferably Pyro/Dom

    EDIT: Or Pyro/Lock
    51 Pyro

    My Pyro/Dom*

    *There might be better, but it does work.

    My Dom/Chloro

    My Dom/Archon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonneillon View Post
    I prefer 51pyro/10lock/5archon personally. I actually have 5 souls devoted to pvp builds to swap to depending on what my group needs.

    1) 51pyro/10lock/5archon
    2) 36pyro/30dom/0arch
    3) 38dom/28chloro/0arch
    4) 33dom/33archon/0chloro
    5) 51chloro/15lock/0arch*

    51 pyro has the most killing power, if you have a good team it's my favorite.

    *chloros are gimped right now in pvp so I try not to heal anymore, not because I don't want to help my team, but because we don't have the tools for the job
    Having fear is too much for me to give up.

  13. #13
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Then how play it ?
    Because FB->DB->FlameB hits like a wet noodle these days - in particular compared to the option to replace DB with Cinder-proc or Fulmi. And DOTing (the advantage Pyro/Lock has over deep Pyro) is crap in PVP this days.
    No sir, the advantage of it is more passive buffs, shadow life and dark fury which is a decent little interrupt mini stun thingamajigger.


    You play it by using dark touch and searing vitality (yay spark!) to builid charge and test target squishy-ness while more importantly building charge, internalize charge management is the key to the build.

    When you have your target selected assuming you have built up enough charge, half your bar is enough here, you hit flame bolt for the 10% spell damage buff and throw up your internalize charge; at this point you cast your higher hitting pyro spells starting with countdown then neddra's grasp, countdown is what you try and time your burst around and neddra's grasp cast at this point will hit for 2 - 3 hundred except on the tankiest of targets.

    Thanks to spark its only taken 2 seconds to get those on then you cast the DD stuff depending on what procs you have up; cinder burst is always nice especially when you still have IC and the flamebolt buff up though if it can wait until your countdown is going off you can then usually follow up with flamebolt and or inferno for some stupid bursty damage.

    Worst case if you don't get an opportunity or CB proc, follow up your countdown + neddra's setup with two fireballs then a flamebolt; due to fireball's flight time and flamebolt's no flight time the second fireball well get there right when countdown and the flamebolt hit putting all the damage in the same timestamp. Note that cinderburt's flight time is the same as fireball so you can do the same thing here with it.

    Ideally and depending on procs you can cast CD -> NG -> fireball (2x depending on procs) -> CB -> flamebolt -> inferno then say goodnight move on to the next target.



    So long story short doing a 25ish lock with pyro still has plenty of burst, you are just trading fulminate for less wasted points going into more useful things which lock has in plenty; lock is a wonderful off soul for passive buffs much like sin can be for rogues.

    This build also gives you sacrife life : damage which can be put on a macro with heatwave for a nice 2 min offensive CD.

    The build I use for this is http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1z...ah.xsc0uhsqcaz, though you can shuffle points around quite a bit depending on personal taste and playstyle. I do a 38 28 since its a pvp build and trading 2% increase in damage for 2% reduced incoming damage AND lockdown is worth it to me.
    Last edited by Nebmai; 02-06-2012 at 05:34 PM.

  14. #14
    Telaran
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    wb mez. Been a while since i've seen you around. Anyway do this one 44 sc 22 domi. ya...1 second lightning burst to the face.

  15. #15
    lgw
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    Ok, didn't find the time yesterday, but here we go...


    Mitigation 101

    Assume gear character:
    * 8k Life
    * 55% reduction from Valor

    Compare:
    * +10% HP (15 WL)
    * -10% damage (10 Ele)

    EHP (effective Health):
    * WL = (8000 * 1.1) / (1 - 0.55) = 19,555 EHP
    * Ele = 8000 / (1 - 0.55 - 0.1) = 22,857 EHP
    * Ele / WL = 22,857 / 19,555 = 116.88%

    TTK scenario under focus fire (3k incoming DPS pre mitigation, 500 HPS from AOE healing / random HOTs)
    * WL = (8000 * 1.1) / (3000 * (1 - 0.55) - 500) = 8800 / (1350 - 500) = 8800 / 850 = 11.35s
    * Ele = 8000 / (3000 * (1 - 0.55 - 0.1) - 500) = 8000 / (1050 - 500) = 8000 / 550 = 14.55s
    * Ele / WL = 128.15%

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