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Thread: support class failing

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default support class failing

    The support role in this game isn't very strong. It's more of a buff/debuff role then a true support role and the debuffs are barely noticeable.

    Traditionally a support class is the glue guy. Smoothing everything over offering a dire service to a small party group the same as it would in full raid group. (I.E. mana regen for less down time or "slows" so the tank doesn't get ripped apart before the healer can top him off). In this game a bard or archon usually is not needed in smaller groups due to the players self damage contributes more then their buffs would offer 2 other people.

    Having raided enough as a mage and rogue to have my hk 4pc on both toons it's easy to say the support class in this game is the "I'm too under geared to dps role" or an entry level position to a new guild "earn you place" type of thing.
    There is a reason that guilds are always looking for a bard or archon, cuz none wants to play it.

    Suggestions:
    Change the game to make the role more needed or get rid of the role all together.
    Distribute the buffs between other souls forcing players to go deeper into other trees so not every dps is playing the same xx/xx/xx build.
    Being able to be “in the mix” with the dps shouldn’t suffer because you buff the raid.

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple
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    Support is useless for five person content.

    Support is pretty decent for ten person content.

    Support is absolutely necessary for twenty person content.



    Now that we're clear on that, its also important that Bards and Archons bring some very different buffs to the party and both of those roles are a necessity in larger groups, but I think it would be very difficult to balance things in such a way that Archon or Bard provided a substantial boost to a small group but didn't somehow provide an even larger buff to 20man content.

    The problem is that most of what support does is invisible to a large number of raiders who are totally incapable of seeing the bigger picture. I'm not happy when I get asked to Archon simply because I know that I'm 500dps above most of the other mages in my guild and my skills are going to waste hitting a one button archon macro and watching illuminate tick down.

    However that also frees me up meta-roles, like being the guy that calls the position for the contracts in Sicaron, or calls the sides for mages in Zilas, or makes the call on target priority. But what makes the difference most of all is that my raid leader understands that no one likes to play Archon and he thanks me when I do it because I don't complain.

    That said, what would make Archon more interesting to play?

    I'd like to see the casting time of the spells come down substantially for one thing, and I'd like to see the archon auras be given a much larger duration (because lets face it, it doesn't matter if its 5m or 10m or 60m, its going to be up the entire duration of the fight, the only difference is whether it pisses me off having to refresh it). I'd like to see a slight bump to Archon damage, (especially scaling) so that we don't feel like someone's kid sister every time we look at the meters. And I'd like them to come up with a mechanic, something that will make combat more interesting so that I don't feel like an Illuminate dispenser.

  3. #3
    Shadowlander
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    Thats kinda my point.
    Support shouldn't be useless in any group setting. It should be just as valuable in a 5 man setting as it is in a 20man setting.

    If being support in this game is just buffing aura's why should that cut my personal dps in half of what i could pull in a full dps role. I hate refrance WoW but it's a common ground for most MMO players, the Archon is a lot like the Shaman was in that game. You could drop totems (buff auras) and still be a competative dps.

    in a setting where i wouldn't have to refresh auras mid fight or keep illuminate up, my personal dps should off by about 100-200dps of what i could pull in a full dps build. It would make playing the class less of a hardship to have a top dps switch to the role.

  4. #4
    Plane Walker Skyfoxy's Avatar
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    Archon is biggest indirect mage dps in raids.

    @all ppl having problems with rebuffing auras and thinking it's dps loss, I said it before and I'll say it once again: spam power drain.
    Last edited by Skyfoxy; 02-01-2012 at 04:56 AM.
    happy dominator
    <- uberhealz

  5. #5
    Rift Chaser RickWolford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirzen View Post
    Support is useless for five person content.

    Support is pretty decent for ten person content.

    Support is absolutely necessary for twenty person content.
    This statement I agree with 100%

    Your statement about auras is interesting.
    Think about this though. If the Archon's goal is to buff the party offensively and defensively, it wouldn't be out of the question to make Archon's buffs even a shorty duration! DPS use their source (and by "source" I mean Energy, Power, and/or Mana) to deal Damage. HPS use their source for healing, and Tanks use it for damage and threat management. So supports like the Bard and Archon should use there source for Damage and Buffs/Debuffs and even AoE-off-heals. Motifs are a good example. Not only does this idea enforce the role's job, but also gives it more buttons to push (but not much I know).
    The only problem about that though is the Aura's aren't powerful enough to justify having a 30 second duration. Which brings me to my solution about Support being useless in 5 mans. Make buffs like Motifs and Auras equally distribute (rounding down) their buffs to the party. Volcanic Bomb currently buffs damage by 5%. So lets say instead of buffing the group's damage by 5%, it says something more on the lines like this.
    "Launches an explosive volcanic stone at the enemy, causing 92 to 96 Earth damage instantly and 82 Fire damage over 6 seconds. Allies within 35 meters of the Mage have their damage increased. This amount is equal to 100% but evenly distributed among all group or raid members. Each member can't benefit from more then 20%. This effect lasts for 10 seconds"

    So if you have 5 group members, the 100% is distributed evenly so each member gets a 20% increase (100 ÷ 5 members = 20). If you have 10 group members, the 100% is distributed evenly so each member gets a 10% increase (100 ÷ 10 members = 10). And finally if you have 20 group members, the 100% is distributed evenly so each member gets a 5% increase (100 ÷ 20 members = 5). This also makes 4 man groups not gain a 25% increase in damage because the spells description says no one can benefit from more then 20%. Try applying this methodology to the Archon and Bard buffs (not all of them, especially the ones that are just as effective in 5 man as they are in 20 man, mainly the defensive ones)

    So before you say its over powering, if your running 5 mans currently and substitute your support for a DPS, its because that DPS does more for the party then the support does (which makes sense in a 5 man environment). But consider my quantitative theory on why this is a good idea.

    Im going assign what may appear to be arbitrary numerical values the a 5-man group's DPS-worth based on roles. So assume the following: Say that a Tank can dish out (while effectively using threat management) and damage value of "1" (these numerical values are not an accurate representation of DPS or DPS ratios).

    Tank: 1

    The healer in the group is more then likely not going to take part in DPS at all, and if they do, then they are sacrificing HPS, which in just fine if HPS can in-fact be sacrificed in the given situation. But for this explanation, and what I would consider accurate for about 90% of the time, healers deliver no DPS, giving them a value of "0" for this theory
    (Now I understand the Chloro does DPS. However I personally think the Chloro's HPS shouldn't be able to compare to that of a none DPSing healer. If you got 2 healers that dish out the same HPS, but one provides some DPS, why not go with the DPS healer? So for balance sake, I would make the Chloro's healing slightly lower, but not by much... If that's not already the case... but that's another discussion)

    Tank: 1
    Healer: 0

    Then lets say DPS are usually pushing... 2.5 times more DPS then the Tank. That seems reasonable, and so they are given a value of 2.5

    Tank: 1
    Healer: 0
    Damage: 2.5
    Damage: 2.5

    So if you were to have 3 DPS in the party instead of 2, then you'd have a DPS value for the party of 8.5... But if you replaced one of the DPS with a support role, that 2.5 DPS needs to be made up some how... If the Support role pumps out 1 DPS value, his buffs have to make up for the 1.5 DPS value that is lost. So the support, through improving Crit, Attack Power, Spell Power, Raw Damage, Armor Pen, and de-buff enemies so that they lose Armor, Resistance, and they susceptibility to resisting damage of all kinds, can make up for this damage. If he increased every ones damage output by 25%, then the values would be more like this...

    Tank: 1 + 25% = 1.25
    Healer: 0 + 25% = 0
    Damage: 2.5 + 25% = 3.125
    Damage: 2.5 + 25% = 3.125
    Support: 1 + 25% = 1.25

    ...then the overall damage value would be at 8.75, making the support role a must... However, lets face it, 25% (in this case) might be to high, and I would even say that I still think that having 3 DPS should still output slightly more damage then 2 DPS and 1 support. Mainly because support doesn't just increase the parties DPS, it also increases they HPS and survivability. Which in HK, is absolutely necessary. So defense can be just as valuable as offense.

    So that's my take on what Bards and Archons need to be. There are other support roles like the Justicar, Chloromancer, and Dominator (I still think Warlord should be a Tank/Support hybrid though... I mean Warriors are the only class that can only queue up for 2 roles... that's another discussion). For instance, if the Dominator's CCs allow the party to concentrate their DPS on a smaller group and the enemies damage output is reduced the increase survivability, along with silencing, stunning, and draining mana, then the Dominator has effectively done his job as a support role. The Chloro and Justicar just do Aoe-off-heals and that's simple enough....

    Man I typed to much... sorry bout that.
    Last edited by RickWolford; 02-01-2012 at 06:14 AM.

  6. #6
    Rift Chaser RickWolford's Avatar
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    Sorry about the spelling and grammar errors. The forums wouldn't let me edit it for some reason...

  7. #7
    Shadowlander
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    Thank you for taking the time to post Rick.
    The simple fix would be to boost archon self damage output to be on par of the dps your gear supports in other roles. that way your self dps doesn't suck and you are making others around you better. thus not being asked to go full dps
    Last edited by castastic; 02-01-2012 at 11:01 AM.

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