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Thread: Math time!!!

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    Ascendant Taemek's Avatar
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    Default Math time!!!

    So, we have been working very hard at increasing our dps.

    My question for the mages here is, 35% more intelligence vs 20% flat damage increase?

    Let us do the math.

    Let's use a base value of 750 intelligence, most HK geared Mages would be around this value.

    750 + 35%= 1012.5, increase of 262.5.

    Using the 750 intelligence would equal 375 spell power, 5 spell power equals 1 DPS. 375 / 5= 75 dps. Keep in mind this is the DPS value that is used to determine your damage output of skills themselves which is a multipulcative value. Do not mistake this DPS value as DPS from a parser.

    1012.5 / 2= 506.25 / 5= 101.25 dps. An increase of roughly around 26%.

    Also keep in mind that Intelligence increases crit rating on a 1 to 1 ratio, so 1012.5 intelligence would be 1012.5 rating, soft cap for melee crit is 1187 or there abouts, so I would assume it would be the same for mages.

    An increase like this is the exact same as an increase to a flat percentage based value of raw damage, seeing DPS increases your raw damage output, you are effecting it at its base source, where as a 20% damage increase is increasing the damage dealt from the hit.

    Also note that this calculation is specifcally taken off your Intelligence pool, only. You need to weigh up how much Spell Power you are also gaining from gear/buffs/passive buffs from yourself and outside yourself that would add to this multipulcative value also.

    So, 35% more intelligence vs 20% more damage, go.

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    Ascendant Soul sky's Avatar
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    Care to explain why you are trying to compare 35% int to 20% base damage increase? Most random thread ever....
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    Ascendant Taemek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soul sky View Post
    Care to explain why you are trying to compare 35% int to 20% base damage increase? Most random thread ever....
    I thought it was obvious...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taemek View Post
    I thought it was obvious...
    No mage talents offer 35% intelligence alone. No talents give 20% flat increase in damage either. No it isn't obvious. Fail thread
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    Ascendant Taemek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soul sky View Post
    No mage talents offer 35% intelligence alone. No talents give 20% flat increase in damage either. No it isn't obvious. Fail thread
    No one said anything of the sort, learn some better reading comprehension and instead of derailing the thread with your poor perception, how about doing some research?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taemek View Post
    So, 35% more intelligence vs 20% more damage, go.
    it mostly depends on which other int buff you get, as they would be additive to that 35% while the flat 20% damage buff would be multiplicative always.
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    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    This is obviously a comparison of Natural Awareness + Acumen versus Dark Power + Improved Warlock Armor.

    I don't see how that is relevant though since Chlorolock vs ChloroDom has a huge amount of other factors which have more of an impact.

    As a theoretical exercise please feel free to work it out since I'd like to know for no particular reason other than curiosity.
    Last edited by Primalthirst; 10-16-2011 at 02:07 AM.
    Nope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruizo View Post
    it mostly depends on which other int buff you get, as they would be additive to that 35% while the flat 20% damage buff would be multiplicative always.
    Correct, how ever, the additive amount is multipulcative from the raw DPS portion, because INT transfers into Spell power which then transfers into DPS which is what is the core value that determines your skills base dps before buffs and other passive abilities.
    Last edited by Taemek; 10-16-2011 at 03:05 AM.

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    Shield of Telara
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    Are you saying you don't get natural awareness in chloro lock? It should be 20% damage vs 10% int, no? Is this a pvp thread or for raids?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElusiveJones View Post
    Are you saying you don't get natural awareness in chloro lock? It should be 20% damage vs 10% int, no? Is this a pvp thread or for raids?
    I'll answer for OP. ChloroDom DPS for raid where you been?
    Last edited by Augureze; 10-19-2011 at 05:20 AM. Reason: Edited for language

  11. #11
    Prophet of Telara
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    All wrong.

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    Plane Touched Hwasung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taemek View Post
    So, we have been working very hard at increasing our dps.

    My question for the mages here is, 35% more intelligence vs 20% flat damage increase?

    Let us do the math.

    Let's use a base value of 750 intelligence, most HK geared Mages would be around this value.

    750 + 35%= 1012.5, increase of 262.5.

    Using the 750 intelligence would equal 375 spell power, 5 spell power equals 1 DPS. 375 / 5= 75 dps. Keep in mind this is the DPS value that is used to determine your damage output of skills themselves which is a multipulcative value. Do not mistake this DPS value as DPS from a parser.

    1012.5 / 2= 506.25 / 5= 101.25 dps. An increase of roughly around 26%.
    Why would you even call attention to this increase of 26% Its only the SP increase from contributions from Intelligence that you are factoring, while leaving out all +sp derived from wisdom or straight +sp on gear. You're adding the equivalent of 131.25 spellpower in your example (1012.5-750)/2=131.25

    This is a significant amount of spellpower but no where near a 26% gain on a mages actual spellpower totals which should range anywhere from 1500-1800 depending on gear/buffs. Adding in that spellpower contributions to spells are based on spell efficiency values of the spells themselves and the fact that this amount of SP increase gained from int will translate into very different DPS increases based upon the spells you use and you can throw your information out the window.

    Also keep in mind that Intelligence increases crit rating on a 1 to 1 ratio, so 1012.5 intelligence would be 1012.5 rating, soft cap for melee crit is 1187 or there abouts, so I would assume it would be the same for mages.

    An increase like this is the exact same as an increase to a flat percentage based value of raw damage, seeing DPS increases your raw damage output, you are effecting it at its base source, where as a 20% damage increase is increasing the damage dealt from the hit.

    Also note that this calculation is specifcally taken off your Intelligence pool, only. You need to weigh up how much Spell Power you are also gaining from gear/buffs/passive buffs from yourself and outside yourself that would add to this multipulcative value also.

    So, 35% more intelligence vs 20% more damage, go.
    Arguing aside the difficulties of comparing these two choices due to 1) +35% int requires only 15 pts invested but split into 2 trees and life spells cast semi-continuously and 2) getting +20% dmg out of warlock tree requires more points invested and really makes this only an exercise in comparing a few narrow builds, 20% increased dmg wins out on paper at higher gear levels.

    Why?

    The +35% int bonus will stop scaling as effectively once you hit the soft crit cap. My 51chloro/11dom/4 ele crit caps out in all t3 gear with no HK gear yet. Moving into HK gear will just dramatically lower the benefit you gain from +int once this is factored in.

    On the flip side, adding 20% dmg will scale well no matter what gear you have. If the argument becomes "how do these compare at lower gear levels" then I would ask you to show me two builds that have to actually make this choice. The talent distribution is so wide that I am stressed to find two semi-equivalent builds that would choose between one or the other aside from chloro/lock versus chloro/dom. And with 51 pts into chloro you really are only looking at the choice between +10% int from dom or +10% dmg from lock with more charge generation adn the occasional opportunity proc.

    A fun exercise, but fairly pointless from what I can see.
    Hwasung the Compulsive

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    Rift Chaser Fridge-RaideR's Avatar
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    What hwasung said.

    This will explain as clear as possible why this wont work endgame (i see you talking about hk gear, so i assume this is endgear stuff).
    http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...urns-caps.html

    Goin int is wasting crit endgame.
    Last edited by Fridge-RaideR; 10-17-2011 at 07:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hwasung View Post
    Why would you even call attention to this increase of 26% Its only the SP increase from contributions from Intelligence that you are factoring, while leaving out all +sp derived from wisdom or straight +sp on gear. You're adding the equivalent of 131.25 spellpower in your example (1012.5-750)/2=131.25

    This is a significant amount of spellpower but no where near a 26% gain on a mages actual spellpower totals which should range anywhere from 1500-1800 depending on gear/buffs. Adding in that spellpower contributions to spells are based on spell efficiency values of the spells themselves and the fact that this amount of SP increase gained from int will translate into very different DPS increases based upon the spells you use and you can throw your information out the window.
    The difference is 26% from 750 INT to 1012 INT gained from SP converted from the INT. So in other words, you gain 26% more SP from gaining 35% more INT from 750 to 1012.

    What I would like to see tested is how much INT transfers into % increase to damage so I can better compaire % dmg mod increases to INT based increases. This is what I am calling attention to and I even said that this did not factor in all other outside buffs/passive buffs from gear, raid buffs etc in the OP. I was simply calling out the INT pool value only.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hwasung View Post
    Arguing aside the difficulties of comparing these two choices due to 1) +35% int requires only 15 pts invested but split into 2 trees and life spells cast semi-continuously and 2) getting +20% dmg out of warlock tree requires more points invested and really makes this only an exercise in comparing a few narrow builds, 20% increased dmg wins out on paper at higher gear levels.

    Why?

    The +35% int bonus will stop scaling as effectively once you hit the soft crit cap. My 51chloro/11dom/4 ele crit caps out in all t3 gear with no HK gear yet. Moving into HK gear will just dramatically lower the benefit you gain from +int once this is factored in.

    On the flip side, adding 20% dmg will scale well no matter what gear you have. If the argument becomes "how do these compare at lower gear levels" then I would ask you to show me two builds that have to actually make this choice. The talent distribution is so wide that I am stressed to find two semi-equivalent builds that would choose between one or the other aside from chloro/lock versus chloro/dom. And with 51 pts into chloro you really are only looking at the choice between +10% int from dom or +10% dmg from lock with more charge generation adn the occasional opportunity proc.

    A fun exercise, but fairly pointless from what I can see.
    Here I would ask you what you stack to get crit cap, example, if on your gear you are stacking all Spell crit to reach that spell cap which you are saying in the long term becomes non-beneficial in end game gear, you can simply trade off the spell crit and maybe even the +int runes for straight spell power runes.

    We just did a few tests using 51 chloro/10 dom/5ele vs 30 lock/32 chloro/3 ele. Tests were parsed over 2 min periods, we did multiple tests.


    51 chloro/10 dom/5 ele
    INT - 872 with NA up + Acumen
    SP - 1421 with NA up + Acumen

    Vile spores:
    Total casts - 110
    Crit dmg - 734
    Crit LGV - 880


    30 lock/32 chloro/3 ele
    INT - 808 with NA up
    SP - 1389 with NA up

    Vile Spores:
    Total casts - 110
    Crit dmg - 920
    Crit LGV - 977


    Few things to note:

    The difference is only 32 spell power which isn't what I was trying to really achieve and obviously, the mage in questions INT base was only 640, so a little lower then I was hoping for also. As you increase your base INT before passive and temp buffs, the disparity from the hybrid build becomes much larger:

    750 + 10% = 825 + 25% = 1031.25
    750 + 25% = 937.5
    Difference of 94.

    850 + 10% = 935 + 25% = 1168.75
    850 + 25% = 1062.5
    Difference of 106

    950 + 10% = 1045 + 25% = 1306.25
    950 + 25% = 1187.5
    Difference of 119

    The increase gained from Living Infusion though at 51 points spent in the tree is quite noticeable. The gain in LGV heals for dmg dealt in the 51 tree is much larger then the gain in the hybrid spec, which may just make stacking INT in the future something worthwhile once people can get around 1000+ base INT.

    I was hoping to see more Vile Spore uses on the hybrid build due to Opportunity, but it made absolutely no noticeable gain or improvement.

    NA does not seem to be applying the correct value according to the character sheet, 640 was the mages base INT value.

    640 + 10% = 704 + 25% = 880.
    640 + 25% = 800.

    He was 8 INT out on the 51 spec and gained 8 INT from the hybrid, we have no idea how or could not even figure out why or where this was happening.

    My whole objective was, to get more healing out of LGV while not losing so much from the chloro line. Natural Healing and Natural Splendor are pretty good skills at situational times, however, in the games current state, we are restricted to how much INT we can actually aquire and this is something that I might look into in the future when there is a level raise or possibly a new tier of items released.

    Just out of curiosity, how are you getting +10% damage increase from lock tree if you are 51 chloro? It's not possible on my screen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fridge-RaideR View Post
    What hwasung said.

    This will explain as clear as possible why this wont work endgame (i see you talking about hk gear, so i assume this is endgear stuff).
    http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...urns-caps.html

    Goin int is wasting crit endgame.
    Again, this has nothing to do with crit, what are you guys going to do when your crit far surpasses the crit cap in the future but your gear keeps increasing in INT per tier? It will be useless right cause of crit cap?

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