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Thread: Melee vs Ranged

  1. #1
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    Default Melee vs Ranged

    Now I understand the "arguement" about risk vs reward being melee, but why do rogues and warriors still insist that they should be higher dps single target when they get sooo much more armor than mages as well as dodge and parry? On any typical boss fight if a mage pulls aggro he usually gets one shotted where as a rogue can take 2-3 shots and a warrior 3-4, so why does that advantage constitute higher dps? Dead dps is zero dps. So if a rogue and warrior can take more damage than a mage because of these advantages, why do they still argue risk vs reward? Rift has effectively negated the risk involved with being in melee range with the exception of a few fights.

    Now even with the diconnects of melee, when a boss has to be moved around ranged has to move as well dropping out dps, we have to wind up our spells where melee is pretty instant. If we have to move multiple time we cant just move cast move cast like melee can move swing move swing while moving etc.

    If warriors and rogues insist that they should have higher st dps than a mage, then give them cloth armor and take away the dodge/parry. Stand there squishy like me and then you can have the higher dps. Give the 2 sec cast times of your swings and you can have the higher dps. Until then the devs need to accept that mages have no advantage for survivabilty and deserve the highest st dps in the game. AOE is not an issue, mages are supposed to be the king of aoe and st damage.

    As for the souls, why is pyro not the highest dps spec for mages? Even the description says the awsome power of fire. All these "Elite" mages that "Like" the hard rotations of sc, you can keep it. It is not fun have 4 rotations for one spec, I am not saying dumb it down like melee but lets be real. SC can keep the highest aoe, but make pyro the highest st like it should be.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatsack View Post
    Now On any typical boss fight if a mage pulls aggro he usually gets one shotted where as a rogue can take 2-3 shots and a warrior 3-4, so why does that advantage constitute higher dps?
    You lose all credibility with that statement right there. You also fail to take into account that some mage dps specs are actually some of the most survivable dps specs of all the callings. That being said, survivability of DPS in raids means zilch. Every class get's one shotted if it pulls aggro.

    The whole ranged vs melee thing is really just due to the way developers tend to design encounters. For some reason or another, developers always tend to punish melee way more than ranged. It's this way in rift, and it's been that way in every MMO up to date. For that reason, from a balance standpoint, melee needs a higher potential since it gets to see that potential less often.

    If developers would start designing instances that favored melee just as much as it favored ranged, then we could start making melee = ranged. There's no reason why this can't or shouldn't happen.

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    lgw
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poochymama View Post
    If developers would start designing instances that favored melee just as much as it favored ranged, then we could start making melee = ranged. There's no reason why this can't or shouldn't happen.
    Do you raid HK ?
    Or, for that matter, have you seen all the many encounters in T1 raiding ?!?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Do you raid HK ?
    Or, for that matter, have you seen all the many encounters in T1 raiding ?!?
    There are more encounters in HK than favor ranged than there are encounters that favor melee. Simple as that. The only encounter that really favors melee is Murdantix, Grugonim(kinda). Same thing with T1 raids. The only t1 raids that really favor melee is maybe Herald, second boss in GP? Honestly I don't agree with it, but that's the way it is.

    IMO raid instances should be designed to favor ranged/melee equally and then you balance around melee dps = ranged dps without overly favoring one or the other.

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    Mind, I've cleared all T1 pre 1.5 with both my Mage and my Rogue, so I'm not speculating here.

    Most important: Up until the MM buff, any fight that needed interrupts not only favoured but heavily relied on melees. (two other gimmicky solutions: low range DPS Rogue, short term Dom crutch with low DPS)

    T1 Raids, melee favoured:
    * GS: Johlen, GS
    * ROS: Herald, Plutonus
    * GP: 2nd (forgot name)
    * DH: Hydriss
    total: 6

    T1 Raids, ranged favoured:
    * GS: Duke, Prince
    * ROS: Warmaster (or rather: caster favoured due debuff)
    * GP: --
    * DH: Iskaal (outside interrupts !)
    total: 4

    Rest is equally good or bad for both sides.

    HK melee favoured: Murda, Sica, Grugo = 3
    HK range favoured: Zilas, Inquisitor = 2
    HK other: Zamira (only relevant for ungeread rerolls), King (strat dependent), Estrode (gimmicky fight), Darktide (seperate encounters / equal)
    Not enough progress on Akylios, but generally looks like a total clusterfvck (in a good way) of movement, target priorities and stuff, and thus tasks both kinds the same.

    So I repeat... do you have sufficient raid experience in any tiers to be able to back up claims like yours ?
    Last edited by lgw; 10-13-2011 at 08:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Mind, I've cleared all T1 pre 1.5 with both my Mage and my Rogue, so I'm not speculating here.

    Most important: Up until the MM buff, any fight that needed interrupts not only favoured but heavily relied on melees. (two other gimmicky solutions: low range DPS Rogue, short term Dom crutch with low DPS)

    T1 Raids, melee favoured:
    * GS: Johlen, GS, Johlen - Maybe, though with him blinking around and going out of melee range, ranged is still favored more. GS - no, air phase and add phase heavily favors ranged.
    * ROS: Herald, Plutonus - Herald - yeah probably, forgot about that one. Plutonis - No, neither is really favored. Melee have to deal with missed GCD due to movement. Mages have to move every now and then.
    * GP: 2nd (forgot name) - Agree with this
    * DH: Hydriss - Not even close, in fact this fight HEAVILY favors ranged. If your only using one tank, like most guilds do, the dmg debuff only affects melee, Hydriss is heavily resistant to physical dmg (as are all the mobs in DH). Also Ranged can continue full dps when Hydriss is all the way up in the air. Also melee has to run all the way across the field to attack the mounds.
    total:2

    T1 Raids, ranged favoured:
    * GS: Duke, Prince, GS, Oleria
    * ROS: Warmaster (or rather: caster favoured due debuff), Alsbeth
    * GP: Thalgur (can continue to range if they get tower debuff), Uruluk (a lot of running around for melee, also harder to spread out as melee in final phase)
    * DH: Iskaal (outside interrupts !), Hydriss
    total: 10

    Rest is equally good or bad for both sides.

    HK melee favoured: Murda, Sica, Grugo = 3
    HK range favoured: Zilas, Inquisitor, Estrode, Molinar, Darktide = 5
    HK other: Zamira (only relevant for ungeread rerolls), King (strat dependent), Estrode (gimmicky fight), Darktide (seperate encounters / equal)
    Not enough progress on Akylios, but generally looks like a total clusterfvck (in a good way) of movement, target priorities and stuff, and thus tasks both kinds the same.

    So I repeat... do you have sufficient raid experience in any tiers to be able to back up claims like yours ? Yes, though it seems like you don't

    Try to be a little less biased
    /10char
    Last edited by Poochymama; 10-13-2011 at 11:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poochymama View Post
    Try to be a little less biased
    /10char
    It would help these forums greatly, if people would be less hyperbolical and before posting honor their own advise.
    In your particular case, it would also help to be less of a bad player or use crappy tactics (take your pick). To point out the most obvious flaws is your assumption that boss movement somehow favour ranged (100% instant melee with gap closers VS ranged with cast times and/or straight damage loss while moving) and your inability to use proper positioning and basic encounter knowledge (like the fact that all bosses are always still melee-able during air phases).

    Look for another thread to troll, thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    It would help these forums greatly, if people would be less hyperbolical and before posting honor their own advise.
    In your particular case, it would also help to be less of a bad player or use crappy tactics (take your pick). To point out the most obvious flaws is your assumption that boss movement somehow favour ranged (100% instant melee with gap closers VS ranged with cast times and/or straight damage loss while moving) and your inability to use proper positioning and basic encounter knowledge (like the fact that all bosses are always still melee-able during air phases).

    Look for another thread to troll, thank you.
    Lol, your argument got destroyed so you resort to personal attacks. I see

    I never said movement favors range, but there are times where melee has to move and ranged doesn't (this favors range).

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    Just because I don't hail you as best player, it's not a personal attack.
    Proper movement and continuing to do damage while moving is a learned skill for melees as well, like it or not. And all your hybris aside, you still lack basic encounter knowledge, as shown above.

    I repeat - troll some other forum, thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Just because I don't hail you as best player, it's not a personal attack.
    Proper movement and continuing to do damage while moving is a learned skill for melees as well, like it or not. And all your hybris aside, you still lack basic encounter knowledge, as shown above.

    I repeat - troll some other forum, thank you.
    Lol at lacking encounter knowledge, and I am well aware of everything you said. From my point of view it's you who lacks encounter knowledge (If you think the add phase on greenscale doesn't favor ranged, the melee debuff on Hydriss doesn't favor ranged, if you think estrode doesn't favor ranged).

    The funny thing is, is that I don't really disagree with the OP. Melee dps should equal ranged dps in terms of max st and aoe potential, but the way encounters are currently designed almost require melee to be > than ranged due to the fact that melee is generally punished harder by boss mechanics (if you can't see this, I think it is you who lacks encounter knowledge).

    It's a dumb design concept that I hope rift eventually fixes. What they should do is balance the classes to be relatively equal in a stand and burn scenario (AoE and Single Target) and then use different encounter mechanics to make sure some callings are better at some fights while other callings are better at others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poochymama View Post
    Lol at lacking encounter knowledge, and I am well aware of everything you said. From my point of view it's you who lacks encounter knowledge (If you think the add phase on greenscale doesn't favor ranged, the melee debuff on Hydriss doesn't favor ranged, if you think estrode doesn't favor ranged).
    Again remember that I did all content with both melee and range, in particular with a melee Rogue who is more squishy and less mobile than any Warrior.
    * Add kicks on GS are low damage and just as bad as mushrooms / farnes that range has to avoid and move out of.
    * Estrode with good strat has Wars run 44 Para / 22 Champ / 0 Pala, which means except when a Sabdancer get's snatched, they can go melee. And Mages have to run gimick specs OTOH. I didn't even count that encounter, but there you go, another melee high.
    * Hydris Tsunami still is a total ***** vs ranged, melee damage debuff hardly matters because any ranged going full DPS will most likely draw aggro, and both add phases on her favour melee (mobile melees to dodge circles, all melees have slows if you have low DPS to get into bubble phase).

    Any other encounter you'd like to have explained ?

    The funny thing is, is that I don't really disagree with the OP. Melee dps should equal ranged dps in terms of max st and aoe potential, but the way encounters are currently designed almost require melee to be > than ranged due to the fact that melee is generally punished harder by boss mechanics (if you can't see this, I think it is you who lacks encounter knowledge).
    Again, I saw both sides of the fence, and only bad melees suffer - as it should be. But folks seem to be so used to their simple, macroable high DPS specs that even learning proper movement seems to hard, and they want everything dumped down. It just doesn't change most encounters are balanced and those few which favour one or another are about equal.
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    I think that one thing the devs have done well (in an ocean full of ****) is making mechanics that challenge ranged and melee differently and for the most part require a good mix of both. Though there are a lot of fights with enrage timers and with very tight dps checks, I don't know of even the most asinine min/max guilds bringing 9 warriors to all of the melee friendly fights and thanking 5 of them for their services when it comes time for molinar, estrode, and upstairs.. you progress as a raid.. in some fights you'll do better on the meters, and in some you'll do worse. .

    i can go on and on about versatility and the advantages of being ranged and why having a harder rotation is probably so you don't get bored while standing still for most fights and spamming one button while melee has to move around with three of their fingers and their mouse and do not have the god given digits on their hands to pull off rotations that would require 10 buttons.. in fact, i had a paragraph typed out that i was proofreading..

    But i realized that because you are spending your time here asking for a buff when you have one of the most versatile and situationally critical classes in the game, you're probably not the type of player that would want to see that a class that is essential in healing and as support and wont be the first one dead because he is, in fact, at range and not eating cleaves or wiping everyone near him before the tank can taunt the boss again has and always will have an important spot in raids in this game

    If you lost your spot, im sorry to hear that. You sound hurt

    If you still have a raid spot, download simple meter and set it to just display you. compete with yourself, not everyone else if dps is all you care about.. beat yourself every time and even if they have to say,
    "he's got great dps, for a mage "
    you'll always have a spot

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Again remember that I did all content with both melee and range, in particular with a melee Rogue who is more squishy and less mobile than any Warrior.
    * Add kicks on GS are low damage and just as bad as mushrooms / farnes that range has to avoid and move out of.
    * Estrode with good strat has Wars run 44 Para / 22 Champ / 0 Pala, which means except when a Sabdancer get's snatched, they can go melee. And Mages have to run gimick specs OTOH. I didn't even count that encounter, but there you go, another melee high.
    * Hydris Tsunami still is a total ***** vs ranged, melee damage debuff hardly matters because any ranged going full DPS will most likely draw aggro, and both add phases on her favour melee (mobile melees to dodge circles, all melees have slows if you have low DPS to get into bubble phase).

    Any other encounter you'd like to have explained ?

    You told me nothing and didn't already know and showed me a couple things you don't really know. The fact that you can't see how Estrode heavily favors ranged raises some serious flags. Everyone is gimped on Estrode, but melee is gimped quite a bit more. And 44/22 champ/ 0 pala isn't even an optimal build for Estrode, good Warriors can still have RB as long as they're careful. Hydris Tsunami hasn't given us problems since the first day. Maybe something you're doing wrong? And tanks really shouldn't be losing aggro on the dragon as long as they know what they are doing and the ranged give the tank time to get control.



    Again, I saw both sides of the fence, and only bad melees suffer - as it should be. But folks seem to be so used to their simple, macroable high DPS specs that even learning proper movement seems to hard, and they want everything dumped down. It just doesn't change most encounters are balanced and those few which favour one or another are about equal.
    The first part just sounds just more like your failed attempt at another personal jab, I'll just ignore that.

    The bottom part I somewhat I agree with. Though I think overall ranged is favored more than melee, there are very few fights where one style is favored heavily over the other. Most are pretty close.

    That being said, we're getting really off topic from the OP. The fact of the matter is that the OP is right. Melee shouldn't be inherently superior to ranged. Currently they are (kinda), but that doesn't mean things can't change.
    Last edited by Poochymama; 10-14-2011 at 12:52 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarchasm View Post
    I think that one thing the devs have done well (in an ocean full of ****) is making mechanics that challenge ranged and melee differently and for the most part require a good mix of both. Though there are a lot of fights with enrage timers and with very tight dps checks, I don't know of even the most asinine min/max guilds bringing 9 warriors to all of the melee friendly fights and thanking 5 of them for their services when it comes time for molinar, estrode, and upstairs.. you progress as a raid.. in some fights you'll do better on the meters, and in some you'll do worse. .

    i can go on and on about versatility and the advantages of being ranged and why having a harder rotation is probably so you don't get bored while standing still for most fights and spamming one button while melee has to move around with three of their fingers and their mouse and do not have the god given digits on their hands to pull off rotations that would require 10 buttons.. in fact, i had a paragraph typed out that i was proofreading..

    But i realized that because you are spending your time here asking for a buff when you have one of the most versatile and situationally critical classes in the game, you're probably not the type of player that would want to see that a class that is essential in healing and as support and wont be the first one dead because he is, in fact, at range and not eating cleaves or wiping everyone near him before the tank can taunt the boss again has and always will have an important spot in raids in this game

    If you lost your spot, im sorry to hear that. You sound hurt


    If you still have a raid spot, download simple meter and set it to just display you. compete with yourself, not everyone else if dps is all you care about.. beat yourself every time and even if they have to say,
    "he's got great dps, for a mage "
    you'll always have a spot

    You miss the point of the post entirely. The point is that I am tired of hearing melee classes say the deserve higher dps with a simple 2 button rotation than a mage with a 10 button rotation that is purely a dps soul when the risk vs reward arguement is a joke. I am also stating that mages should NOT have the same spec for both highest aoe AND highest ST damage, no other classes do and you should have to choose which you want to run. I am saying buff pyro to be highest ST dps spec and buff/simplify sc to be highest AOE spec.

    I am not asking for any other class to be nerfed nor am I complaining that some other class beat me on the dps meter, I am simply stating that a dps soul is just that, a dps soul. It doesnt matter whether we can heal or support, as a dps spec I sure a hell am not healing anyone nor am I supporting, I am dpsing. The same goes for rogues, if they are dps spec then they are not healing or supporting, they are dpsing and as such should have high dps.

    All dps specs wether warrior, rogues, or mages should have high dps but should also take into account for survivability. I have been in DH when the tank died and the dps warrior tanked for a few moments while the tank was BRezed and took over again to save a wipe, a dps mage isnt doing that.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poochymama View Post
    T1 Raids, melee favoured:
    * GS: Johlen, GS, Johlen - Maybe, though with him blinking around and going out of melee range, ranged is still favored more
    wrong, ranged have to constantly move around to elude bombs, boss will always move back to tank so the dps loss for ranged is a lot more than for melee.
    . GS - no, air phase and add phase heavily favors ranged.
    wrong, ranged have to move constantly around to elude greenery, air phases are just a few seconds in a 10 min+ battle.
    ranged dps suffer a lot more than melee.
    * ROS: Herald, Plutonus - Herald - yeah probably, forgot about that one. Plutonis - No, neither is really favored. Melee have to deal with missed GCD due to movement.
    lol, now melee cant hit anymore while moving, biased much?
    * DH: Hydriss - Not even close, in fact this fight HEAVILY favors ranged. If your only using one tank, like most guilds do, the dmg debuff only affects melee, Hydriss is heavily resistant to physical dmg (as are all the mobs in DH). Also Ranged can continue full dps when Hydriss is all the way up in the air. Also melee has to run all the way across the field to attack the mounds.
    total:2
    when on air he has an heavy damage debuff, dpsing him is worthless.



    Try to be a little less biased
    /10char
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