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Thread: Rogues(MM, NB/RS), how do we beat them?

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    Rift Chaser Osmosis's Avatar
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    Default Rogues(MM, NB/RS), how do we beat them?

    I actually thought 1.4 was quite balanced, good rogues could kill me and I would normally win against other rogues; I agree rogues needed a *slight* buff, but Trion have gone too far with the buffs to rogues. Pre 1.4 good rogues could kill me and average / bad rogues I could beat. Now after 1.5 there are MM's everywhere and NB/RS or Sin/MM/Ranger hybrids that out dps me, have more burst, more mobility and more DPS than I do. I have gone from feeling like I could compete to being a fan out pin cushion, I find there is not a great deal I can do against ranged rouges when they decide they want me dead.

    Rogues are now topping warfront charts for damage + KB's, I've heard people argue it's the gear, well if it's the gear then why weren't rogues topping warfront charts PRE 1.5??

    Admittedly I am only P5 (halfway to P6), I've retired by Pyro/Dom spec (nowhere near enough survivability with so many rogues around) and I've been playing heavy lock builds just to survive since 1.5 went live. I don't play ChloroLock, it just doesn't appeal to my playstyle and to be honest I find it boring.

    So what specs would enhance our chances against rogues? Are we stuck playing heavy lock specs? Or are there options outside ChloroLock, I am sick of being a pin cushion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmosis View Post
    I actually thought 1.4 was quite balanced, good rogues could kill me and I would normally win against other rogues; I agree rogues needed a *slight* buff, but Trion have gone too far with the buffs to rogues. Pre 1.4 good rogues could kill me and average / bad rogues I could beat. Now after 1.5 there are MM's everywhere and NB/RS or Sin/MM/Ranger hybrids that out dps me, have more burst, more mobility and more DPS than I do. I have gone from feeling like I could compete to being a fan out pin cushion, I find there is not a great deal I can do against ranged rouges when they decide they want me dead.

    Rogues are now topping warfront charts for damage + KB's, I've heard people argue it's the gear, well if it's the gear then why weren't rogues topping warfront charts PRE 1.5??

    Admittedly I am only P5 (halfway to P6), I've retired by Pyro/Dom spec (nowhere near enough survivability with so many rogues around) and I've been playing heavy lock builds just to survive since 1.5 went live. I don't play ChloroLock, it just doesn't appeal to my playstyle and to be honest I find it boring.

    So what specs would enhance our chances against rogues? Are we stuck playing heavy lock specs? Or are there options outside ChloroLock, I am sick of being a pin cushion.
    Actually pyro/dom is your best bet 1v1.Maybe chlorolock. Very little heals for them to steal, and you still heal yourself a tad while doing damage. In WFs if there are any heals going off it's GG rogue wins every time.
    Xail - R41 Mage
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    Rift Chaser Osmosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Mage View Post
    Actually pyro/dom is your best bet 1v1.Maybe chlorolock. Very little heals for them to steal, and you still heal yourself a tad while doing damage. In WFs if there are any heals going off it's GG rogue wins every time.
    I don't want to play ChloroLock, spamming chloro skills is not my idea of fun PvP. Pre 1.5 I did quite well with my Pyro/Dom spec I have tried it in 1.5 and against MM's, they out DPS me, I don't have the survivability to cope with there damage output + range. What about a Necro dom spec? Drop Transference / TI on them to try and reduce their burst capability and soulpurge?
    Last edited by Osmosis; 10-05-2011 at 04:07 PM.

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    General of Telara Eclipze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmosis View Post
    I don't want to play ChloroLock, spamming chloro skills is not my idea of fun PvP. Pre 1.5 I did quite well with my Pyro/Dom spec I have tried it in 1.5 and against MM's, they out DPS me, I don't have the survivability to cope with there damage output + range. What about a Necro dom spec? Drop Transference / TI on them to try and reduce their burst capability and soulpurge?
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1z...kogrk.xtcz0z.E

    Necro/Dom is good against MM's because it can do 4 things:
    Consumption/Deny - Purge Vampiric/Electrified Munitions and Cleanse yourself
    TI/Tran/MW - Drastically increase the time it takes them to pull off 5cp rotations with a finisher
    Storm Shackle - Root them and if they move, they damage themselves
    Incompetence/Soul Purge - Heal yourself/raid while killing them

    MM's are only good if they can range you, keep their buffs and burst you down. Take away these and they are sitting ducks.
    Last edited by Eclipze; 10-05-2011 at 04:52 PM.
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    I destroy rogues 1v1 with Chloro/Dom.
    Argizeos - Rank 52 - Wolfsbane

    RIP Chlorolock

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    Rift Chaser Osmosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eclipze View Post
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1z...kogrk.xtcz0z.E

    Necro/Dom is good against MM's because it can do 4 things:
    Consumption/Deny - Purge Vampiric/Electrified Munitions and Cleanse yourself
    TI/Tran/MW - Drastically increase the time it takes them to pull off 5cp rotations with a finisher
    Storm Shackle - Root them and if they move, they damage themselves
    Incompetence/Soul Purge - Heal yourself/raid while killing them

    MM's are only good if they can range you, keep their buffs and burst you down. Take away these and they are sitting ducks.
    I can see the positives with the spec, bur where does your burst damage come from if you need to kill them before they receive any kind of healing (without relying on Split Personality). Pre 1.5 in my Pyro/Dom spec, I had burst when I needed via Swift Control, heatwave, cinder procs etc... with this new breed of MM's there burst and even sustained DPS is very powerful, would a necro/dom spec have enough oomph in it without being totally reliant on Soul Purge?

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    To kill a MM without split personality you'd have to be very aggressive. Hit them with Transference, storm shackle, knockback, then LoS. They will be forced to disengage or eat the shackle, keep kiting around objects and try to squirrel them when you can and load them up with debuffs, If you're in an open field, with SP on Cooldown, then yeah, you're most likely screwed.
    Argizeos - Rank 52 - Wolfsbane

    RIP Chlorolock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmosis View Post
    I don't want to play ChloroLock, spamming chloro skills is not my idea of fun PvP. Pre 1.5 I did quite well with my Pyro/Dom spec I have tried it in 1.5 and against MM's, they out DPS me, I don't have the survivability to cope with there damage output + range. What about a Necro dom spec? Drop Transference / TI on them to try and reduce their burst capability and soulpurge?
    Are you doing squirrel > storm shackles > cinder burst > fireball / ti / transference > fireball > fireball> ?
    Xail - R41 Mage
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    I'm having very little trouble with MM rogues in 1.5. I can generally kill them before they kill me, no cds up.

    With Heat wave up they're dead very fast. Either way, Sheep, Shackle, Cinder, Fireball. Then start moving and TI, Incompetence. Finish em off with Sheep, fireball fireball inferno etc.

    Now NB/sins are another story. As pyro/dom, if their CDs are up 1v1 there's really no possible combination of buttons to press that will keep them from killing me before all their garbage defensives are down. I really feel like their burst and or survivability needs to get looked at. Even lesser geared melee rogues are bursting me down twice as fast as an R8 warrior.

    "When you see a rogue you should fear them like a warrior."

    Next patch might be "when you see a warrior you sould fear them like a rogue."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmosis View Post
    I actually thought 1.4 was quite balanced, good rogues could kill me and I would normally win against other rogues; I agree rogues needed a *slight* buff, but Trion have gone too far with the buffs to rogues. Pre 1.4 good rogues could kill me and average / bad rogues I could beat. Now after 1.5 there are MM's everywhere and NB/RS or Sin/MM/Ranger hybrids that out dps me, have more burst, more mobility and more DPS than I do. I have gone from feeling like I could compete to being a fan out pin cushion, I find there is not a great deal I can do against ranged rouges when they decide they want me dead.

    Rogues are now topping warfront charts for damage + KB's, I've heard people argue it's the gear, well if it's the gear then why weren't rogues topping warfront charts PRE 1.5??

    Admittedly I am only P5 (halfway to P6), I've retired by Pyro/Dom spec (nowhere near enough survivability with so many rogues around) and I've been playing heavy lock builds just to survive since 1.5 went live. I don't play ChloroLock, it just doesn't appeal to my playstyle and to be honest I find it boring.

    So what specs would enhance our chances against rogues? Are we stuck playing heavy lock specs? Or are there options outside ChloroLock, I am sick of being a pin cushion.
    Nothing!

    Trion as announced with 1.5 that PvP shall be balanced for the average sub-par skill player.

    Pre 1.5 the out come of the fight against a mage was determined by skill. Today any half brained no skill player can stand still and shred you! Even healers get shredded!

    This is Trion and this is Rift!

    The reason you don't see many Domi mages is not every one likes Domi..I hate Domi..I can play it..I just do not have fun with it :/
    Last edited by Cempa; 10-05-2011 at 10:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleeds View Post
    I'm having very little trouble with MM rogues in 1.5. I can generally kill them before they kill me, no cds up.

    With Heat wave up they're dead very fast. Either way, Sheep, Shackle, Cinder, Fireball. Then start moving and TI, Incompetence. Finish em off with Sheep, fireball fireball inferno etc.

    Now NB/sins are another story. As pyro/dom, if their CDs are up 1v1 there's really no possible combination of buttons to press that will keep them from killing me before all their garbage defensives are down. I really feel like their burst and or survivability needs to get looked at. Even lesser geared melee rogues are bursting me down twice as fast as an R8 warrior.

    "When you see a rogue you should fear them like a warrior."

    Next patch might be "when you see a warrior you sould fear them like a rogue."
    This is due the utter lack of stronge defensive moves in Pyro/Dom, in particular in the combination you play it.
    And btw... Any MM feeling to pick up Cleanse Soul (10p Infi) is just as bad - and already ate the very most Mages for lunch in 1.4.
    => Unless you have a pocket healer, pick enough defenses to survive focus in PVP, period.

    PS: The idea using Comsumption to purge MM Munitions / Poisons won't work. That's at least to cleanses, depending on spec more like four, and that's before any other group buffs... or the fact that you trade a 1.5s GCD with CD against a 1s GCD with no CD, as the Rogue simply reapplies his buffs (baddies being bad and not watching none withstanding).
    Last edited by lgw; 10-06-2011 at 01:51 AM.
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    Sword of Telara Ramea's Avatar
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    One of of our rogues had almost 2600 single target DPS on murdantix last night. Makes me very happy for our raid force, more raid dps => more kills. Makes me a bit sad for mages.

    http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/4...2b2d18e3d6.jpg

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    http://shoreline-guild.com

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    I actually lost faith in Trion and their double-standard balancing acts in both PVE and PVP. They are doing all the mistakes that WoW did -and eventually paid dearly for. But things now are not what they were 7 years ago, and people don't tolerate crap as much and have other options.

    I still wait every patch and hope for a good mage patch/buff to make us competitive/on par with other classes in terms of DPS. Forget we have to play the most complex rotations, while others do much better bashing 1 or 2 macros .
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    We should be discussing how to beat NB/RS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmosis View Post
    I actually thought 1.4 was quite balanced, good rogues could kill me and I would normally win against other rogues; I agree rogues needed a *slight* buff, but Trion have gone too far with the buffs to rogues. Pre 1.4 good rogues could kill me and average / bad rogues I could beat. Now after 1.5 there are MM's everywhere and NB/RS or Sin/MM/Ranger hybrids that out dps me, have more burst, more mobility and more DPS than I do. I have gone from feeling like I could compete to being a fan out pin cushion, I find there is not a great deal I can do against ranged rouges when they decide they want me dead.

    Rogues are now topping warfront charts for damage + KB's, I've heard people argue it's the gear, well if it's the gear then why weren't rogues topping warfront charts PRE 1.5??

    Admittedly I am only P5 (halfway to P6), I've retired by Pyro/Dom spec (nowhere near enough survivability with so many rogues around) and I've been playing heavy lock builds just to survive since 1.5 went live. I don't play ChloroLock, it just doesn't appeal to my playstyle and to be honest I find it boring.

    So what specs would enhance our chances against rogues? Are we stuck playing heavy lock specs? Or are there options outside ChloroLock, I am sick of being a pin cushion.
    The assumption I'll make is that you're fighting an equal level rogue, and that you're not Rank 8. See, there exists a problem that I don't see a lot of peopel talking about -- the DPS of the rank 8 weapons is so much higher than everything else (and weapon DPS matters much more to rogues and warriors) that you're talking about a whole new ball game.

    Below rank 8, the key to beating an MM is simple -- Do a lot of damage quickly. There's nothing more to it than that. VM doesn't matter when spike DPS is applied. The problem everyone's facing ATM is that there isn't 1 or 2 MMs -- there's 5+ of them. That will fade over time, and as it does, spike damage will become your friend.

    NBs are a different kettle of fish. Unless you manage to land a lot of debuffs on them without doing enough damage for them to notice anything amiss, they will pop one of three defensive CDs. Two of those three will render spike DPS impossible. I can gaurantee you that they will live through it unless you kill them outright in 2 GCDs. At equal rank, Chloro/Lock is going to be a coin toss, and the winner will be determined based on who has already burned their CDs.

    Be aggressive, and plan for the need for two spikes of damage. A big one upfront, that will cause him to panic and blow several defensive CDs, followed by CC to let those CDs expire (they are all VERY short in duration), and then spike him down.

    As far as NB damage goes, their spike is not instantly available. They need to do three things in order to get a big spike of damage. a) burn their 31 point ability to buff their finisher damage, b) come out of stealth to buff their overall damage) and c) use a warp to buff their crit and damage.

    A lasts for a minute - on the other hand, A had to be applied ahead of time, or it precludes the use of B. Meaning, a fight already has to be going on. If you're in a group fight and there's an NB around, THAT'S when you really need to be concerned with his spike damage. B and c, however, are both on very short timers. If you reserve your cc for AFTER he closes, you remove the spike from his damage. They key to NB fights is to approach it as a two phase contest. Phase a is forcing his short timers to expire, for both offense and defense. Phase B involves cc, debuffing, and a massive spike of damage.

    If you're in a group fight, and a rogue disappears in the middle of it, and you're pretty sure he's an NB, you can be fairly certain he's setting up a big front-load spike of damage on someone. NB/RSs move slowly without burning ports. Use this to your advantage (Z axis issues are your friend.)

    Set your builds up accordingly.
    Last edited by Ghostfire72; 10-06-2011 at 06:20 AM.

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