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Thread: Question: Tormentor's Crafted Gear vs. Alternatives

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Question: Tormentor's Crafted Gear vs. Alternatives

    I currently have the 4 pieces of the Clever Tormentor's craftable gear, but recently won the Treant Heartwood Staff (the other 2 mages in our raid already had it). I am wondering whether it is worth replacing the Clever staff, and losing the 4-pc bonus, to use the new staff. At first glance it may appear to be an obvious "yes," but consider the relevent stats.

    Moving from Clever to Heartwood Staff I'd Gain/Lose the following:
    INT -14
    WIS +1
    SP +43
    SC -33
    Focus +8 (I'm Focused-capped for pre-HK already)

    In other words, I'd gain 36 SP (after taking into account the INT loss) and lose 47 SC (again after INT loss). If that were the end of it, then it would still clearly be a win to use the Heartwood Staff. However, after dozens of live parses from raids and T2's, the 4-pc set bonus has parsed from anywhere from about 5.5DPS to as much as 11-12DPS. On average, I'd say I get about 7DPS from it, which translates to 35 SP. In other words, the Heartwood Staff likely results in a net wash from a SP perspective, I lose the mana of 14 INT, and 47 (almost 2%!) crit.

    What this seems to tell me it that until my guild moves on to HK (which is likely a month or two away still for us) and I start getting HK gear, there is no piece of gear other than T1 end boss Relic weapons that would justify replacing any of the 4 pieces of Tormentor's gear.

    Anyone disagree with that, or find a flaw with my reasoning? I just want to make sure I am not overlooking something here.

    Thanks
    Last edited by Bloodrayn; 09-02-2011 at 08:35 AM.

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    crafted staff is terrible. the 4th piece bonus is rather underwhelming. get Alsebeth or GS's legendary staff. better yet go legendary, dual wield. dagger and totem.

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    You say the crafted staff is terrible. OK, fine, please support that statement. Using the numbers I provided, I don't see how you can say that. I already said that the Relic/Orange staves from GSB and RoS are clearly better, but I don't have access to those yet, same with HK weapons. Given I HAVE the Heartwood Staff now, my question was whether or not it is an actual upgrade over the crafted staff and if anything OTHER than the Relics would be an upgrade. My analysis suggests that you should never replace any of the crafted gear with anything other than the 2 Orange Mage Staves from RoS/GSB, pre-HK.

    You say the 4-pc bonus is underwhelming, but I know for a fact it is worth 30-40SP, which is more than the 3-pc bonus. So, mathematically speaking, it seems that unless I am overlooking something, the Heartwood Staff is a downgrade from the crafted staff, as would any piece of gear that replaces any of the crafted pieces pre-Relic/pre-HK. Anyone out there with more than a gut feeling or dislike for the crafted pieces that has done some actual analysis that has an opinion?

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple
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    pretty sure the heartwood staff is still listed above the crafted one in the latest gear spreadsheet.

  5. #5
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    also a procs dps does NOT translate into SP. SP affects all your other spells, damage proc does not. there is no conversion.

  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhdjoseywales View Post
    also a procs dps does NOT translate into SP. SP affects all your other spells, damage proc does not. there is no conversion.
    While I see your point, I have to disagree. The damage proc is based on all damage spell casts, so it in essence DOES affect all my (damage) spells. So, except for about 3 direct-healing spells in the Chloro tree, it is just like spell power, only with partly random element to it. Since I am not one of our raid healers, it is moot.

    Regardless, Spell Power, like all stats, is just a proxy to get to what ACTUALLY matters in an encounter: DPS. At the end of the encounter, your spell power is not what matters, only the DPS you delivered. The proc is DPS, and therefore cannot be ignored when comparing gear. The lists you refer to do list the Tormentor's Staff below several of the T1 2-handers, but that does NOT take into account the set bonuses. Once you factor those in, I still believe it is better than any of the non-Orange/non-KH options.

    If I am wrong, I'd like someone with actual numbers to show me where I'm wrong. Please note, I am not insisting I am right, but so far, I haven't heard anything to suggest I am wrong.

  7. #7
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    if you have both, why not just parse it and then you would "have the numbers"

  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    Fair enough.

    My original question, though, wasn't just about the Heartwood Staff. I was also wanting to know if I was right in thinking that, due to the set bonuses, it doesn't make sense to replace ANY of the crafted gear until getting an Orange staff or HK gear. In fact, from a cursory look at the gear lists, it doesn't appear to make sense to drop the crafted robe/shoulders/ring unless you get at least 2 pieces of HK/T4 armor.

    Now that I'm thinking about it, this will likely become the case for the T3 pieces once they introduce the new R1 synergy crystals, assuming they don't completely suck.

  9. #9
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    the staff is the only piece i have not made myself. i am currently running t2 raid pieces instead. i am wary of damage procs, im just not convinced the occasional proc does more dps than the added spellpower would on hard hitting spells.

    let us know what you find

  10. #10
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhdjoseywales View Post
    let us know what you find
    Based on the parses from ~10 raids and ~20 T2's, here is what I have seen:

    The proc seems a straight percentage chance per cast. Not sure if there is an internal cooldown, but when I run my Necro/Lock spec for more single-target focused fights, I am making a lot more casts than when I run SC/Ele for AOE (with its long-channeled spells).

    So, in Necro/Lock, I seem to parse the proc out at around 9-11 DPS (45-55 SP equivalent).

    In SC/Ele, it tends to be more in the 6-8 DPS range (30-40 SP equivalent).

    In any case, I have NEVER seen it parse out to under 5 DPS or more than 14 DPS over the course of a full raid or T2. Given that, call it on average about 2 procs per minute of casting (2 * ~200dam/proc / 60sec = 6.7DPS) as SC/Ele, and 3ppm as Necro/Lock (~10DPS). Just a rough guess, but I'd say that means the proc is set at ~15% chance per cast (assuming the devs like round numbers, and didn't set it to something arbitrary like, say, 13.6%). If it were much higher than that, there would have to be some sort of internal cooldown on it to get results like I have been seeing. I'll see if I can dig through some of my old logs and find out if it ever procs 2-3 times close together.

    I suppose it is also possible that it could proc from DoT ticks, but if that is the case, then there is definitely an internal cooldown on it, given the sheer number of ticks you get as Necro/Lock. I will look and see if the proc seems tied just to the casts, or if a tick can trigger it (not sure if I can do that though, since I don't know if the combat log indicates DoT casts vs. DoT ticks.)

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodrayn View Post
    Based on the parses from ~10 raids and ~20 T2's, here is what I have seen:

    The proc seems a straight percentage chance per cast. Not sure if there is an internal cooldown, but when I run my Necro/Lock spec for more single-target focused fights, I am making a lot more casts than when I run SC/Ele for AOE (with its long-channeled spells).

    So, in Necro/Lock, I seem to parse the proc out at around 9-11 DPS (45-55 SP equivalent).

    In SC/Ele, it tends to be more in the 6-8 DPS range (30-40 SP equivalent).

    In any case, I have NEVER seen it parse out to under 5 DPS or more than 14 DPS over the course of a full raid or T2. Given that, call it on average about 2 procs per minute of casting (2 * ~200dam/proc / 60sec = 6.7DPS) as SC/Ele, and 3ppm as Necro/Lock (~10DPS). Just a rough guess, but I'd say that means the proc is set at ~15% chance per cast (assuming the devs like round numbers, and didn't set it to something arbitrary like, say, 13.6%). If it were much higher than that, there would have to be some sort of internal cooldown on it to get results like I have been seeing. I'll see if I can dig through some of my old logs and find out if it ever procs 2-3 times close together.

    I suppose it is also possible that it could proc from DoT ticks, but if that is the case, then there is definitely an internal cooldown on it, given the sheer number of ticks you get as Necro/Lock. I will look and see if the proc seems tied just to the casts, or if a tick can trigger it (not sure if I can do that though, since I don't know if the combat log indicates DoT casts vs. DoT ticks.)
    all that is well and good but all we really need to see is a couple of 5 min parses with the crafted staff vs the same with the heartwood. whichever is higher wins. no further math or theorycrafting needed.

  12. #12
    Rift Master Guaritor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhdjoseywales View Post
    all that is well and good but all we really need to see is a couple of 5 min parses with the crafted staff vs the same with the heartwood. whichever is higher wins. no further math or theorycrafting needed.
    I dunno, with that tiny of a difference, I think any difference you see in the parse will be just rng.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guaritor View Post
    I dunno, with that tiny of a difference, I think any difference you see in the parse will be just rng.
    maybe, but the sample size can certainly be increased to help minimize rng. my main point was the amount of theorycrafting over a potential 10 dps increase is kind of silly. just test it and go with what seems better

  14. #14
    Plane Walker Domey's Avatar
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  15. #15
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domey View Post
    You can't refer blindly to gear lists. That gear list doesn't have any in-built approximation of the proc at all so is useless for this discussion.
    My gut says the Treant Heartwood Staff would be better but in the face of your claims that the proc is worth 7-14 Dps I am unsure. I imagine they are probably roughly equal and which parses higher will probably be due to RNG.

    I would say a staff better than or equal to Phatasmagoria/Amunet's Staff of Life's Power would be worth dropping the 4pc for. Individually the other pieces are all BiS pre HK and it would take 2 pieces and a Synergy crystal to outweigh the 20sp set bonus.
    Nope.

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