+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 35
Like Tree7Likes

Thread: So many possible builds - Why are so few used?

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    22

    Default So many possible builds - Why are so few used?

    Well I'm level 50 now, but I still feel very much the noob when it comes to the other souls in my calling.

    I started out with a pyro/ele build because I didn't know any better, then I found the forum, the necrolock spec suited my playstyle and I've been using it ever since.

    There are various builds touted on here, but I rarely see any mention of Archon or Elementalist, and all I ever hear of others(pyro) are bad things.

    I know we're all aiming for an optimal build but with such a huge array of options at our disposal, why does it seem there are only a small handful that are truly viable?

    I think I read that there are 84 possible unique combinations, and if only a very small portion of this are being used - The rest, I dunno, just feels like a waste.

    It would be nice if there was more variety, 15-20+ great builds that were all on a par(8 'pure' builds (I do think all should offer something awesome at 51 points), and the rest combos), had something for everyone and you came up against something new in pvp every time.

  2. #2
    Champion
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    540

    Default

    One problem that Mages have is we have so many damage types that our souls do not have much synergy with one another.

    So if you look at the Rogues, for example, they primarily deal physical damage and so almost all of their souls have synergy. You can go Sab/Blade Dancer/Assassin, you could do Ranger/Marksman/Assassin, or Assassin/Night Blade/Ranger, etc etc. You can take basically all of their souls and mix them in any way you want.

    You can't do that with Mage. There are very specific reasons that each soul is paired with one another.

    Necro/Lock is obvious. The Necro + death damage only helps Warlock, and the Warlock DoT damage only works on death DoT damage, so Necro is the only other soul that has a viable death-based DoT.

    Ele is used for Pyro and SC in part because of the bonus to elemental damage. Lightning strike fits with SC extremely well because it gains the bonuses of the air damage, while the crit bonus and Intensify Elements works with Pyro extremely well.

    While some people have tried mixing it up (Necro/Pyro, Lock/Ele, etc) those builds don't usually work because of the lack of synergy.

    It is an unfortunate oversight by the class developers, imo, but it is what we have to work with.
    Last edited by FireWraith; 08-31-2011 at 09:58 AM.

    GSB: 5/5, RoS: 4/4, HK: 10/11
    GP: 4/4, DH: 4/4

  3. #3
    Plane Walker ChinesePanda's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    440

    Default

    They are used but primarily as alternate sPecs or for tailored fights. Elementalist does not do good dps on its own but tempest and intensify elements allow other trees to do more damage. Archon is primarily a buffing machine. He weakens himself to strengthen others. His buffs do not stack with another archon's therefore it would be counterproductive to have two deep archons in one raid. The archon tree has few talents that benefit the damage of other trees therefore a heavy specced archon does not synchronize well with other trees

  4. #4
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    95

    Default

    We don't talk about them because frankly by experience they just don't work. Last time I tried my Pyro spec, guys were banding up to kick me out of a WF for poor performance... And that's me at rank 5.

    Very few mage abilities work in PvP, and that is a sad statement.

  5. #5
    Prophet of Telara
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,004

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chuffy View Post
    So many possible builds - Why are so few used?
    Because this game, like all MMOs, is governed by the min/maxers who dictate to those too dumb or lazy to research it themselves what the most efficient build(s) are and like lemmings most do as they're told.

    Rift has an amazing range of possible play-styles and class usage, sadly 95% of that flexibility is sacrificed on the altar of efficiency.

  6. #6
    Champion
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kragorn View Post
    Because this game, like all MMOs, is governed by the min/maxers who dictate to those too dumb or lazy to research it themselves what the most efficient build(s) are and like lemmings most do as they're told.

    Rift has an amazing range of possible play-styles and class usage, sadly 95% of that flexibility is sacrificed on the altar of efficiency.
    Actually it's dictated by the game designers who build enrage timers into encounters so that you are FORCED to min/max in order to beat it.

    GSB: 5/5, RoS: 4/4, HK: 10/11
    GP: 4/4, DH: 4/4

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    149

    Default

    There are many builds that can be used and what build depends on how you play. I play a Pyro/Elem and for PvE play, the build rocks for how I play. Is this build great for PvP, probably not for everyone but I have seen some PvP Pyro players that can tear it up in a warfront.

    The combinations should be explorered by everyone and tested to see what works for each player. Someone already posted that people look for guidance on what to play and while that is great, you dont learn the particulars of each build.

    There are many experts in the class and those who have studied it greatly but what most people never do is play a class that fits their playing style, instead they fit their playing style to a build someone told them was good. There is more to being a mage than pure damage in a warfront, or leading the dungeon in a given stat.

  8. #8
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    96

    Default

    people trying new things is how we had zoomancers for a couple months. the cost of redoing skills is pretty minimal once you learn all the talents one time around, test anything that looks fun and who knows. I guess that's what it comes down to, testing. may be the most fun build you've ever played, but if you can't do enough dps to pull your weight on an enrage timer, time to go back to the norms.

  9. #9
    Sword of Telara
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    852

    Default

    Mages are in the same boat any other class. Everyone has a single and aoe spec that beats the rest, champ para rb, sabodancer, druid, cab, scele, pyroele. Necrolock too depending on fight.

    Anyway, not all specs are created equal, so people min max because bigger numbers are better. Thats pretty much MMO's for ya.

  10. #10
    Shield of Telara
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    733

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireWraith View Post
    One problem that Mages have is we have so many damage types that our souls do not have much synergy with one another.

    So if you look at the Rogues, for example, they primarily deal physical damage and so almost all of their souls have synergy. You can go Sab/Blade Dancer/Assassin, you could do Ranger/Marksman/Assassin, or Assassin/Night Blade/Ranger, etc etc. You can take basically all of their souls and mix them in any way you want.

    You can't do that with Mage. There are very specific reasons that each soul is paired with one another.

    Necro/Lock is obvious. The Necro + death damage only helps Warlock, and the Warlock DoT damage only works on death DoT damage, so Necro is the only other soul that has a viable death-based DoT.

    Ele is used for Pyro and SC in part because of the bonus to elemental damage. Lightning strike fits with SC extremely well because it gains the bonuses of the air damage, while the crit bonus and Intensify Elements works with Pyro extremely well.

    While some people have tried mixing it up (Necro/Pyro, Lock/Ele, etc) those builds don't usually work because of the lack of synergy.

    It is an unfortunate oversight by the class developers, imo, but it is what we have to work with.
    This is the most accurate answer.

  11. #11
    Rift Master Guaritor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    673

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kragorn View Post
    Because this game, like all MMOs, is governed by the min/maxers who dictate to those too dumb or lazy to research it themselves what the most efficient build(s) are and like lemmings most do as they're told.

    Rift has an amazing range of possible play-styles and class usage, sadly 95% of that flexibility is sacrificed on the altar of efficiency.
    Its a fact that every game is made easier by playing it the "right" way. Sure I could beat a ME2 on Insane only punching everyone in the face, but that would take ages. It's not unreasonable to expect someone to perform at least remotely up to what their class can do... and in that regard people have spent countless hours before you at the dummies and doing math to make sure they're using the best builds, there's no reason to go reinventing the wheel.

  12. #12
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    22

    Default

    Well I'm glad I posted now, some excellent feedback thank you all.
    Synergy, this seems to be the key.
    Are mages lacking the synergy of other callings because rather than just 'physical damage', we are dealing with many different types ie death, fire, air etc.
    Because of this each soul is literally limited to one or two possibly (viable) bedfellows.
    Is this only the case for mages?

  13. #13
    Prophet of Telara Corian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,186

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kragorn View Post
    Because this game, like all MMOs, is governed by the min/maxers who dictate to those too dumb or lazy to research it themselves what the most efficient build(s) are and like lemmings most do as they're told.

    Rift has an amazing range of possible play-styles and class usage, sadly 95% of that flexibility is sacrificed on the altar of efficiency.
    Actually, if you're sacrificing flexibility on any altar, it'd be the altar of perception.

    Look at warriors in 1.4. They felt parachamp was their only viable PvP build. Paragon gets kicked in the face, and magically without any changes to other souls they find out that riftblade builds and void knight builds are very effective.

    And that's the thing about balance. It's not an objective look at what works and what doesn't. It's perception of what works and what doesn't.

    Anyway, back on topic mages have a wide array of viable PvP builds. I don't know and don't care about PvE.
    This is why we can't have nice things.

  14. #14
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    184

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireWraith View Post
    One problem that Mages have is we have so many damage types that our souls do not have much synergy with one another.

    So if you look at the Rogues, for example, they primarily deal physical damage and so almost all of their souls have synergy. You can go Sab/Blade Dancer/Assassin, you could do Ranger/Marksman/Assassin, or Assassin/Night Blade/Ranger, etc etc. You can take basically all of their souls and mix them in any way you want.

    You can't do that with Mage. There are very specific reasons that each soul is paired with one another.

    Necro/Lock is obvious. The Necro + death damage only helps Warlock, and the Warlock DoT damage only works on death DoT damage, so Necro is the only other soul that has a viable death-based DoT.

    Ele is used for Pyro and SC in part because of the bonus to elemental damage. Lightning strike fits with SC extremely well because it gains the bonuses of the air damage, while the crit bonus and Intensify Elements works with Pyro extremely well.

    While some people have tried mixing it up (Necro/Pyro, Lock/Ele, etc) those builds don't usually work because of the lack of synergy.

    It is an unfortunate oversight by the class developers, imo, but it is what we have to work with.
    Didn't read further into the thread yet, but, your assumptions about rogues are like, all wrong. Sabdancer, Hoko, Sozu. That is all.

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    109

    Default

    Lets consider the converse. No matter how one spent their points you got an equal result. Then why bother with the soul system and just make it plain vanilla mage.

    I personally use all 5 roles available to me so I don't understand the op saying "why use so few?". I would use more if they made more roles available. Does every point permutation have to be a viable build?

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts