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Thread: Rethinking the logic behind "51 Archon or nothing" in raids.

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    Default Rethinking the logic behind "51 Archon or nothing" in raids.

    As we all know, since the very start of rift in 20 man raids if you archon you go 51 points in, however I think times have changed. 51 archon is not what it used to be, and I'm giving you my point by point analysis on why.

    After 32 points in archon, there are 3 additional root abilitys you can get by placing further points. These abilities are: Surging flare, Lingering dust, Burning purpose. Two of these 3 abilities mainly exist to modify cast speed (Melee autoattack is affected too but this dps gain is absolutely trivial) The third was a great debuff which all raid mobs are now immune to, it gives you a self buff which makes up for burning purposes debuff on you.

    From the clerics I've asked, very few specs in raids ever cast any spells over 1.5 seconds, thus surging flare and burning purpose are nearly useless for the clerics in a raid. For single target right now, mages use either Pyro/ele or necro/lock. Pyro ele gets an average of .26 faster cast on fireball from these buffs. Necro/lock gets no benefit. Stormcaller gets no benefit for aoe rotations, and only benifits on lightning strike for single target.


    So really, by going 51 points in archon you are giving your raid next to nothing unless you are stacking pyro/eles for that particular fight. Burning purpose is about 35% of your dps as archon, which is nice, but I believe that we should start considering running Chloro/archon aoe healing hybrids. I feel we would add much more to the raid as this spec then going 51 for a dps gain. We may even want to carry 2 archon specs depending on what the dps mages are running for that fight, and how many you have.

    Archon sub isn't that far inferior to warlock for aoe healing as a chloro. An archon sub nets you +16% damage, +8% cast speed Versus +20% damage and opportunity from warlock. Archon sub also has limitless mana versus warlock which ends up needing to life tap on longer fights.

    I'd like to hear other mages opinions on this matter, especially ones in hammerknell.
    Last edited by Electros; 08-29-2011 at 11:42 AM.

  2. #2
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    I've always been a big advocate of non-51 point Archon builds although I've never had the follow-through to actually implement it in any groups. However, that was also back in the day when Stormcaller was the only viable DPS build. Now that Pyro has entered the fray, I'm not quite as convinced as I once was.

    First, I'll lay out what I see as requirements for an Archon:
    - They MUST use Volcanic Bomb (when not covered by a Cleric) and Earthen Barrage. With the state of every boss now being some sort of DPS check, you can't afford to forfeit 5% damage and 5% crit.
    - They must keep auras up and mobs debuffed as part of their rotations.
    - They need at least 32 points for Flaring Power.

    Given that premise, here's what it comes down to, for me.

    Other than buffing, an Archon can have 2 other purposes; healing or DPS (you could make an argument for CC or something, but that generally isn't needed).

    DPS

    Let's look at what an Archon would do to maximize their DPS. Burning Purpose is amazing for increasing the personal DPS of the Archon. Burning Purpose + Pillaging Stone can create some enormous nuking potential (to the extent that I actually looked at it as a possible DPS spec).

    Also, cast speed is extremely important to the Archon, since all of their skills have long casts. This is improved by Lingering Dust and is also why people usually take at least 5 points in Pyro (for Volcanic Bomb cast speed).

    Honestly, if an Archon is required to cast Volcanic Bomb and Earthen Barrage in their rotation (which I stated as a requirement earlier), I don't think you'll be able to pair a 32-point Archon with any other soul in order to get higher DPS than a 51 Archon is going to achieve.

    Now, 51 Archon could increase their DPS if they left out Surging Flare, which goes towards your argument of cast speed not being worth it. That would be something to test on a dummy.

    Healing

    Obviously if you want to heal while Archon, you'd need something like 32/34 Archon/Chloro. The question is how much could you heal.

    Since you can't get Void Life, your most basic role will probably be AoE heals. Let's look at what a macro might look like for this.

    cast Volcanic Bomb
    cast Earthen Barrage
    cast Nature's Touch
    cast Vile Spores

    More or less something like that. The question is how often are you going to get to those Life-damage skills (remember, the premise to being an Archon is maximum up-time on buffs).

    You would get some tools such as Essence Surge, Bloom, and Flourish which could help quite a bit as well.

    What it comes down to though is whether this healing is 1) needed or 2) enough to replace a healer and gain an additional DPS. That I'm not sure of. It would be interesting to test in a raid and see how much healing output it would actually have. I have a feeling it would not be that much, though, because of trying to keep up the buffs.

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    51 Archons are still pretty heavy hitters - I have a feeling that using the rest of the points elsewhere wouldn't have a substantial DPS increase, however I could very well be wrong here. I know they're not primary DPS, but when others are lacking they can make the difference.

    Chloro/archon has worked out for me in the past, but any mage running 51 archon nullifies that build.
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    It depends on how many mages are in your raid. When my guild went thru a period when we only had 1 to 3 mages I utilized the chloroarchon spec more often because we needed the heals and buffs and the 32 pt archon buffs tend to be better for melee anyways. Once we had 5 or more mages then a 51pt archon seemed more beneficial. There are drawbacks to the hybrid spec like not being able to heal as well.

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    I actually put a lot of time and testing into this...even wrote a guide.

    But the feedback wasn't great. /shrug

    You're welcome to take a crack at it, see if it works for you:

    http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...-man-spec.html

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    Unless it's for lower tier stuff, 5 mans, raid rifts, or fooling around in GSB, for actual progression raids a 51 archon is a must.

    It's a nice idea, but I just want to point out why for a few things:

    Mages:
    Pyro/Ele will start outscaling all other mage dps at higher gear levels. They'll need Burning Purpose.
    Chlorolock AOE healers - will benefit from reduced cast time on Nature's Touch and Vile Spores. Single target healers will also benefit if they decide to use Nature's Touch in their rotation.
    Necrolock players are starting to put 2/3 in Imp. Void Bolt specifically due to having an Archon with Burning Purpose, allowing them to put that point elsewhere.

    Rogues, Warriors, and Clerics:

    Yes, autoattack damage isn't their main DPS. However, Burning purpose is still a DPS increase for them in general on auto-attacks. Not only that, but the warrior community changes builds with each patch due to Trion trying to balance them. Currently one of the higher DPS builds for warriors does in fact have significant auto-attack damage, it's now a factor in their builds. Burning purpose increases that.

    Not only that, but an archon with Burning Purpose will do more personal DPS. Not just that, but a hybrid Chloro/Archon is not neccessary for the most part. The skills will be covered by your actual, dedicated ST healers and AE healers.

    It's nice to think there could be alternatives, but unfortunately, you must 51 archon in a raid, there is no alternative. If more heals are needed, its more effective to gear up your current raid/healers/tank or switch another person to healing, than to lose a 51 archon.

    EDIT: Pets should benefit too! =P
    Last edited by Ryuji; 08-29-2011 at 01:23 PM.

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    RIFT Community Ambassador bluedot's Avatar
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    I would like to know exactly how trivial Burning Purpose is for melee. I have a hard time believing it is trivial enough to disregard completely.

    Since I don't have the means to test it right now, we'll have to assume it is trivial.

    By losing 51 points you are going to lose a significant amount of DPS, not only from Burning Purpose but also by using a healing rotation, you'll replace that with AoE healing. However, by not having 51 points you are cutting the HPS of your Chloro AoE healer[s] (Assuming they are Chloro/Lock).

    If a Chloro Archon Spammed their macro the AoE healing output would be sporadic, at least 4 of every 15 seconds would be used not casting Chloro spells. Which very likely means you would still need a Chloro/Lock to help AoE heal. There are not that many encounters where you need more then just a Chloro/Lock to handle the AoE healing.

    I think a DPS 32 Archon would be far more viable. EcoDragon's build looks pretty good. Even then, in a 20 man I'd be willing to bet 51 Archon will net a better raid DPS.

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    Well to my knowledge BP only increases auto-attack speed on non-casters...which is fairly unimpressive. However I wouldn't doubt it nets a good hundred or so DPS (in total) based on how many melee you have. Fairly easy to test. Just AA parse a dummy, then do it again under BP :x
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    RIFT Community Ambassador bluedot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuji View Post
    EDIT: Pets should benefit too! =P
    They do, which I didn't think about.. Necro pets auto attack pretty frequently and they defiantly benefit. In a quick parse I did just now, Auto attack was 27% of my pets damage (without Burning Purpose). In a very quick test it appeared to give my pet 20-30 DPS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluedot View Post
    They do, which I didn't think about.. Necro pets auto attack pretty frequently and they defiantly benefit. In a quick parse I did just now, Auto attack was 27% of my pets damage (without Burning Purpose). In a very quick test it appeared to give my pet 20-30 DPS.
    I guess what it comes down to is how many pyro/eles you are running on the specific fight, whether the fight is more of a dps or mechanic check, and of course.. how much BP affects melee auto attack damage.

    a 51 archon obviously does significantly more dps than a chloro/archon, but still on most of the fights in hammerknell an archon is not very good dps. I don't feel like losing the archons dps would impact meeting the enrages at all, which is what made me consider going a chloro for the aoe heals + flourish, wild growth, and battle rez which all seem extremely useful for the encounters.

    If BP is actually a large increase for melee classes, then this theory is wrong.. I haven't tested it myself, I just assumed it was trivial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluedot View Post

    I think a DPS 32 Archon would be far more viable. EcoDragon's build looks pretty good. Even then, in a 20 man I'd be willing to bet 51 Archon will net a better raid DPS.
    Of that, I have no doubt.

    The question I sought to ask is the same one the OP is asking: can a non-51 point Archon be viable in any situation?

    As a solo spec, it's absurd.
    As a 20-man raid spec, it's required.

    Between that gap...if you can find a way to provide solid heals/dps and still provide some of your wonderful buffs...is it worth doing so vs a 51pt spec?

    Situationally, I tend to think so.

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    Plane Walker ArchivistCarrion's Avatar
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    Am I posted in a troll thread?

    51 Archon is a MUST for 20 man-raids.

    I could understand a 32 Hybrid for 10/5 mans and maybe PvP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchivistCarrion View Post
    Am I posted in a troll thread?

    51 Archon is a MUST for 20 man-raids.
    Yes, this is the standing logic, however times and specs have changed and I think it's a good time to reanalyze what going 51 gives us, which are 3 root abilitys. One has been nerfed in to immunity in raids, One is a trivial raid buff that only even helps 1 raiding spec with low uptime(5% cast speed) and the last is burning purpose

    The point of this thread was to decide if burning purpose adds enough personal AND raid dps to make up for having the battle rez and additional healing of chloro. As far as personal dps, I'd say no.

    If you go chloro, You will do 600-700 dps and 800+ hps. If you go 51 archon you will do 1,000ish personal dps depending on fight (Up to 1,200ish on an ideal fight). An extra battle rez and +10% damage to raid cooldown are nothing to sneeze at either.

    I'd like to do some testing on the various melee specs to figure out how burning purpose increases their dps to truly figure this out

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    Cleric: 3s big heals, with 51 Archon 2.5s. Also... quick group heals.
    /thread
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Cleric: 3s big heals, with 51 Archon 2.5s. Also... quick group heals.
    /thread
    Not to mention the OP forgot about AB and Hailstorm for SC's.
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