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Thread: Necrolock Min/Maxing

  1. #1
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    Default Necrolock Min/Maxing

    After spending some time checking over the spell-power coefficients, and a couple threads about how deathly calling didn't seem to do much for pets that a couple people have mentioned, I spent the last hour and a half parsing. I'm a bit lazy about getting the screenshot's and uploads and parses, but after doing 30 or so I'd rather just go over the findings, and if someone wants to double check or verify my work, that'd be great.

    So, without further ado:
    SP: 1542 (with PSx5, Powerstone, PVP R6 synergy crystal included)
    SC: 893
    Focus: 231 (in max stats gear over focus gear for testing purposes)

    First, this is probably common knowledge among the best mages, but it bears repeating due to importance: it appears dark touch is a dps loss if you don't let it fall off, even getting down to the 0s marker lowered it's overall fight dps. I always refreshed it at 0s or as close to, since it's average damage minus one tic should technically still be more damage than a void bolt. Not anymore, due to how it hits as it drops off the mob. I didn't since it's still quite a bit of micromanagement.

    I parsed my pet with grave rot, LD, and necrosis... alone it almost seemed random what it'd do. It averaged out over a while to be 330 dps, but it could either be 300 or 350... and it didn't matter if grave rot was used or not, it had no effect on the dps of the pet in my parses. On my highest parse the pet did 344. No deathly calling used at all, no grave rot, etc.

    38/28 Necrolock defile spec, no soul purge, appears to be my highest ST DPS at the moment. I maxed at about 1346 on the boss dummy. It was 1305 when testing Dark Touch at 0s refreshes, as well as not using DT at, and once I was letting DT fall of I gained 15 dps from it, probably a bit from timing on the rest, and the random pet dps. That also means that unless you time DT perfectly, every time, it could be replaced with another void bolt, and simplify the rotation.

    Pyro/Ele, I'm not as good with. Someone else can probably do it better, but I could only get up to 1200, that includes testing if Flamebolt is worth a GCD. I'm going to say it is, though Pyro/Ele really is pretty RNG dependent, though we all knew that. It should also scale better with a raid setting.

    I also checked out a build mentioned earlier, 38 lock 28 ele, for tempest. 1100 is what I maxed at. It's really simple to use though. Life leech, defile, spam VB/DB, refresh defile. That's pretty much it. I didn't really see that much difference between using LS, Elemental forces, Icy Caraspace, etc.

    So, anyone else's experiences vary? Am I doing anything wrong? Can you parse higher with less Spellpower alone on the dummy with a different spec, or even with soul purge - which I wasn't able to do either. Or is this our current best spec and method of doing it? If so, any nuances / tips for maxing out?
    Last edited by Ryuji; 08-16-2011 at 06:15 PM.

  2. #2
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    I was parsing 1405 over 7:33 on Dummy with 33/33 Necro/Warlock using Grave Rot every two rotations.

    Key was to use soul purge whenever possible and Queue a Graverot during the soul purge to drop it right after a Soul Purge Tick.

    This was with 1490SP and 800~crit.
    Last edited by supeg; 08-16-2011 at 07:18 PM.

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    Rift Master Guaritor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supeg View Post
    I was parsing 1405 over 7:33 on Dummy with 33/33 Necro/Warlock using Grave Rot every two rotations.

    Key was to use soul purge whenever possible and Queue a Graverot during the soul purge to drop it right after a Soul Purge Tick.

    This was with 1490SP and 800~crit.
    I'm going to go ahead and assume this was with some sort of buffs? o_O

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guaritor View Post
    I'm going to go ahead and assume this was with some sort of buffs? o_O
    Powerstone+35 wis/int No PilStone stacks. Also, 320 Focus my normal PVE gear no PVP stuff.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuji View Post
    After spending some time checking over the spell-power coefficients, and a couple threads about how deathly calling didn't seem to do much for pets that a couple people have mentioned, I spent the last hour and a half parsing. I'm a bit lazy about getting the screenshot's and uploads and parses, but after doing 30 or so I'd rather just go over the findings, and if someone wants to double check or verify my work, that'd be great.

    So, without further ado:
    SP: 1542 (with PSx5, Powerstone, PVP R6 synergy crystal included)
    SC: 893
    Focus: 231 (in max stats gear over focus gear for testing purposes)

    First, this is probably common knowledge among the best mages, but it bears repeating due to importance: it appears dark touch is a dps loss if you don't let it fall off, even getting down to the 0s marker lowered it's overall fight dps. I always refreshed it at 0s or as close to, since it's average damage minus one tic should technically still be more damage than a void bolt. Not anymore, due to how it hits as it drops off the mob. I didn't since it's still quite a bit of micromanagement.

    I parsed my pet with grave rot, LD, and necrosis... alone it almost seemed random what it'd do. It averaged out over a while to be 330 dps, but it could either be 300 or 350... and it didn't matter if grave rot was used or not, it had no effect on the dps of the pet in my parses. On my highest parse the pet did 344. No deathly calling used at all, no grave rot, etc.

    38/28 Necrolock defile spec, no soul purge, appears to be my highest ST DPS at the moment. I maxed at about 1346 on the boss dummy. It was 1305 when testing Dark Touch at 0s refreshes, as well as not using DT at, and once I was letting DT fall of I gained 15 dps from it, probably a bit from timing on the rest, and the random pet dps. That also means that unless you time DT perfectly, every time, it could be replaced with another void bolt, and simplify the rotation.

    Pyro/Ele, I'm not as good with. Someone else can probably do it better, but I could only get up to 1200, that includes testing if Flamebolt is worth a GCD. I'm going to say it is, though Pyro/Ele really is pretty RNG dependent, though we all knew that. It should also scale better with a raid setting.

    I also checked out a build mentioned earlier, 38 lock 28 ele, for tempest. 1100 is what I maxed at. It's really simple to use though. Life leech, defile, spam VB/DB, refresh defile. That's pretty much it. I didn't really see that much difference between using LS, Elemental forces, Icy Caraspace, etc.

    So, anyone else's experiences vary? Am I doing anything wrong? Can you parse higher with less Spellpower alone on the dummy with a different spec, or even with soul purge - which I wasn't able to do either. Or is this our current best spec and method of doing it? If so, any nuances / tips for maxing out?
    Huh... I usually parse higher with soul purge, but maybe that has something to do with sp coefficients (I'm only at 1k unbuffed). Does anyone else parse higher without soul purge?

  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    On second thought, I don't see how that could be possble. Defile won't deplete your charge by itself, so you have extra charge and soul purge has a higher sp coefficient than void bolt, so you should always get a dps increase from soul purge no matter what.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple Kanzer's Avatar
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    You're not going to see Pyro/Ele's full potential on a target dummy unless you got an archon with you buffing your casting speed. Pyro benefits a lot more than other souls with casting speed increase so don't fret the bad dummy parses.

    As for 38/28 warlock/necro its been talked about in other post about how soul purge just doesn't seem to be translating into more DPS over VB spam even though it seems like it really should. Personally I've stopped using soul purge in that spec.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by supeg View Post
    I was parsing 1405 over 7:33 on Dummy with 33/33 Necro/Warlock using Grave Rot every two rotations.

    Key was to use soul purge whenever possible and Queue a Graverot during the soul purge to drop it right after a Soul Purge Tick.

    This was with 1490SP and 800~crit.
    Well 3:30 into a test on 33/33 I stopped the parse as I was cringing at how badly I was screwing up the rotation. Losing life leech, other dots falling off, getting annoyed... and the parse had me at 1390 dps.

    I'd been using 35/31 for a while. 33/33... the extra % to the pets seems to help a bit, as well as getting down the priority system correctly. Actually kind of bugs me that it does better dps in a failed rotation than a defile lock does.

    To the other above poster - Soul purge starts off being more powerful, but technically the spellpower coefficient is effectively lower than void bolt's is, due to the increase being applied across the entire channel. At high enough spellpower, the spells with higher coefficients will always become better.

    Which is why pyro/ele scales so well. Fireball has 40% per fireball, as well as a natural +15% crit chance, rolling DoT, and gets the benefit of a cast time only slightly above the GCD in raids, unlike VB, which doesn't benefit. Therefore, there will be a point in the future, assuming nothing drastic changes, that pyro/ele outdamages everything else without comparison. For the moment, however, necrolock appears to be on par or better in some situations or spellpower levels.

    Looks like this was my fault for having issues with the right build and soul purge. More pet damage instead of defile.. though the defile spec is much easier to maintain, it'd have a more pronounced difference in raids. Final parse, exact same stats as OP, using all cooldowns as they come up... is unavailable because I get disconnected from the server 20 seconds into every attempt. Or 2 minutes in. Or 4:30. Something doesn't want me online. Anyways, it parses slightly better now, and I can chalk up a bit of our difference to latency issues and practice. Still, there is one thing that really bugs me. I'm still wondering if Dark Touch is a DPS increase at all, or a waste of a GCD.
    Last edited by Ryuji; 08-16-2011 at 11:16 PM.

  9. #9
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    One of our Mages was having more luck using a 31/31/4 with the 4 in Chloro for entropic veil. No soul purge, just Veil with charge.

    I haven't had time to just sit down with a parse for a few hours to figure everything out. I saw someone else posted some testing that found that Soul Purge, Grave Rot, and Defile all added DPS. I know Bluedot has said that Defile doesn't add DPS, but Soul Purge does. Lots of people say Soul Purge doesn't.

    There can't be this much RNG present that there isn't a right answer. Obviously movement is going to come into play in real scenarios, but it seems like there HAS to be an "ideal" rotation to flock to.

    We had 6 Mages running Necro/Lock in a raid the other night on repeated attempts at a boss kill in HK. All of us had DRASTICALLY different DPS percentages on our skills (some soul purging, some not, etc etc) and every fight our DPS rank in the fight would alternate just depending on RNG. Made it even more confusing than it was before.
    Last edited by FireWraith; 08-16-2011 at 11:27 PM.

    GSB: 5/5, RoS: 4/4, HK: 10/11
    GP: 4/4, DH: 4/4

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireWraith View Post
    One of our Mages was having more luck using a 31/31/4 with the 4 in Chloro for entropic veil. No soul purge, just Veil with charge.

    I haven't had time to just sit down with a parse for a few hours to figure everything out. I saw someone else posted some testing that found that Soul Purge, Grave Rot, and Defile all added DPS. I know Bluedot has said that Defile doesn't add DPS, but Soul Purge does. Lots of people say Soul Purge doesn't.

    There can't be this much RNG present that there isn't a right answer. Obviously movement is going to come into play in real scenarios, but it seems like there HAS to be an "ideal" rotation to flock to.

    We had 6 Mages running Necro/Lock in a raid the other night on repeated attempts at a boss kill in HK. All of us had DRASTICALLY different DPS percentages on our skills (some soul purging, some not, etc etc) and every fight our DPS rank in the fight would alternate just depending on RNG. Made it even more confusing than it was before.
    I'm beginning to think it's more RNG dependent than I originally thought. For any movement fight, defile is really going to pull ahead. For standing still and casting, looks like soul purge needs to be cast whenever you know you'll get 3 tics of it off without losing anything. I finally managed to try three parses due to the internet working again. And if anything... it looks like I'll probably use soul purge, but getting the highest #'s possible is incredibly difficult without perfect timing and watching buffs/casts.

    No deathly calling/grave rot or Dark Touch

    (07:48) Boss Practice Dummy: 1421 Kelin-Void Bolt-1809 | Kelin | 1350

    With Deathly/grave rot, but no dark touch still

    (03:37) Boss Practice Dummy: 1664 Tankzilla-Rising Waterfall-2075 | Kelin | 1384

    And adding dark touch into the mix:

    (03:34) Boss Practice Dummy: 1654 Kelin-Void Bolt-1875 | Kelin | 1390

    checking the log, appears I did more personal DPS on this one, but the pet did less. In other words, I wasn't as good about keeping deathly up due to the added management of dark touch. I was using soul purge very, very often. Even without another round of Lich form on this parse, they are going to be very close at this point.
    Last edited by Ryuji; 08-16-2011 at 11:52 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuji View Post
    I'm beginning to think it's more RNG dependent than I originally thought. For any movement fight, defile is really going to pull ahead. For standing still and casting, looks like soul purge needs to be cast whenever you know you'll get 3 tics of it off without losing anything. I finally managed to try three parses due to the internet working again. And if anything... it looks like I'll probably use soul purge, but getting the highest #'s possible is incredibly difficult without perfect timing and watching buffs/casts.

    No deathly calling/grave rot or Dark Touch

    (07:48) Boss Practice Dummy: 1421 Kelin-Void Bolt-1809 | Kelin | 1350

    With Deathly/grave rot, but no dark touch still

    (03:37) Boss Practice Dummy: 1664 Tankzilla-Rising Waterfall-2075 | Kelin | 1384

    And adding dark touch into the mix:

    (03:34) Boss Practice Dummy: 1654 Kelin-Void Bolt-1875 | Kelin | 1390

    checking the log, appears I did more personal DPS on this one, but the pet did less. In other words, I wasn't as good about keeping deathly up due to the added management of dark touch. I was using soul purge very, very often. Even without another round of Lich form on this parse, they are going to be very close at this point.

    this is because the split build IS higher dps.. the issue it has is it tends to be better on NO MOVEMENT fights then the defile build for obvious reasons. as for if dark touch is a dps icnrease or not... interesting, if i udnerstand that correctly..... its either you let your pet do mroe by using your deathly or your dark touch? at which point it would come down to... what gains more dmg... the pets benifit from deathly calling or the damage icnrease between increased spell power and dark touch... if i udnerstand correctly?

  12. #12
    Prophet of Telara
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    I've been very interested in whether flame bolt is even worth it. I'm afraid only a theoretical answer will do... combust is simply too RNG dependent to be able to parse it reliably. Removing flame bolt from my macro has resulted in some of the highest--and some of the lowest--pyro/ele parses I've managed.

  13. #13
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    Keeping up DC stacks with grave rot is a DPS loss, period. Void bolt outscales it by a mile--at ~1700sp grave rot does the same total damage as ONE void bolt. Add in the time taken to aim and click (I don't care how fast you are), potential boss movement, and the fact that it nets you no more than 30 pet dps--it's simply not worthwhile.

  14. #14
    Plane Walker GLopez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phopis View Post
    Huh... I usually parse higher with soul purge, but maybe that has something to do with sp coefficients (I'm only at 1k unbuffed). Does anyone else parse higher without soul purge?
    Soul Purge is the best scaling spell mages have, so it has nothing to do with coefficients.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuji View Post
    Well 3:30 into a test on 33/33 I stopped the parse as I was cringing at how badly I was screwing up the rotation. Losing life leech, other dots falling off, getting annoyed... and the parse had me at 1390 dps.

    I'd been using 35/31 for a while. 33/33... the extra % to the pets seems to help a bit, as well as getting down the priority system correctly. Actually kind of bugs me that it does better dps in a failed rotation than a defile lock does.
    What are people getting with 33/33 that seems to be making the biggest difference? I don't see two extra points worth of +pet damage being that huge...?

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