+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: *PVP* 32/32 Pyro/Lock - Maximizing Damage?

  1. #1
    Plane Touched Dwindarf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    244

    Default *PVP* 32/32 Pyro/Lock - Maximizing Damage?

    I keep hearing that pyro isn't viable for pvp anymore, but the only builds I see are pyro/dom or variations of pyro/ele adapted for pvp.

    I ran through the soul calculator for half an hour before coming up with the following:

    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1z...o.tc0cuhchxk.b

    So, as with my other failed chlorodomilock experiment, I have ZERO idea if this is viable. Right now it's just on paper and tomorrow going to see what it can do in the warfronts.
    But, this is what I figured out on paper for the build:
    • 3 damage shields (1 on a 10% chance on taking damage)
    • 2 emergency heals (I'm counting Mortality towards this. Not a true emergency heal but a way to heal yourself nonetheless and do damage)
    • 2 control & movement impairing removal spells
    • 2 stuns (a 1 second and a 5 second ***3 seconds when your own 2 second stun is factored)
    • 5 second silence
    • snare & fear
    • disarm
    • upwards of additional 44% increase in magical damage with all benefits added up (assuming they all stack...no clue if they do yet)
    And the specifics...
    • dropping Pyromancer's/Fire Armor for Improved Warlock Armor

      increases magical damage by 10% (as opposed to Fire Armor's 5%) and also gives you a damage shield that heals on hits. But what happens to Pyromancer's Armor benefits?

    • Opportunity (Warlock tree)

      makes up for the 10% chance to reduce the next spell casting time by 100%. The only thing you won't get is the cooldown timer reset on Cinder Burst, but while CB is on cooldown you can utilize the 100% cast time reduction on another spell, such as Fireball.
      Basically you're trading a cooldown timer reset (which could happen anywhere within the 30 second CD timer of Cinder Burst....right at the end it seems most of the time for me > ) for an extra 5% damage all the time

    • Devouring Shadows replaces Fire Storm for AoE damage. You get reduced charge gain (-2) but the base damage is higher

    Since we love nuking people with Fireball and Cinder Burst, I thought this would be a way to increase the damage significantly.
    Assuming you pop off Sacrifice Life: Damage and Neddra's Torture AND you're standing in your ground of power, combined with all passive damage % increases you can get (on paper) a total of a 44% increase in damage with a 4% increase in critical hit chance (19% on Fireball). This isn't including the +40 INT increase from Flaring Intellect (which results in more damage).

    Burning shield and Neddra's Essence can be popped for quick damage shields, and Shadow Life is your quick emergency heal.
    Mortality is the last ditch effort spell, Flicker and Break Free are the anti-CC.
    Dark Fury and Flashfire give you stun capability, and Choke gives you a silence.
    Wither and Fear for limited CC, and Burn for disarm.

    The Warlock tree also provides a 25% increase in charge gain which means you can use Withering Flames quicker.
    In addition it gives Sacrifice Life: Mana for quick mana infusions and Reconstruct to patch the holes in your HP, which thanks to the 25% charge gain increase gives you plenty of charge to utilize when Withering Flames is on cooldown.

    So...on paper, looks pretty viable.
    On the battlefield? Well that's a different story.

    Any thoughts or feedback welcomed. I didn't see a similar build to this already posted, so if there is one floating around out there sorry for posting a duplicate build.
    T H E C H R O N I C L E S O F D W I N D A R F
    __________________________________________________
    How Trion stole my Dwarf identity.
    The magical returning lvl 47 "Burlap" shoulderpads.
    Yay! T1 & T2 Mage gear!!!...wait..oh god...

  2. #2
    Prophet of Telara
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,079

    Default

    I tried it already, it was pretty pathetic. Valor has killed all the mage DPS specs.

  3. #3
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    95

    Default

    First and foremost, nobody who cares about being good in pvp loves nuking people with 2 second casts (Fireball), which is pretty much what you'd be doing in this build a majority of the time.

    Generally speaking, when everything around you is happening at instant or near instant speed, 2 seconds can be an eternity. Multiple 2 second casts in a row...urggg. With the burst reduction hit Pyro took in 1.3, THAT"S what ultimately makes this build, Pyro/Ele, or whatever random random Pyro build "not viable" in pvp atm. It's just no longer backed by enough consistent "umph" to work in Rift's pvp setting, especially when you are just going to roll over to countless callings/specs out there that come along and spam attack away at a pace you simply can't keep up with (mage included).

    As for random comments:

    - The fact Mortality is easily, and commonly i might add, interrupted in pvp makes it fairly unreliable at best. You'll put it on your bar, and then likely find yourself never actually using it as a charge dump outside pve purposes.

    - Dark Fury's only real value lies in the fact it's another potential instant nuke to add to your arsenal. The one second stun isn't even relevant. Blink. It's over.

    - Keep in mind that Fire Armor is free (as long as you are going that high in the tree anyway, of course), while getting that additional 5% damage of Warlock Armor is costing you an additional 5 pt investment. For a buff that you'll probably find being stripped off you 50% of the time anyway i'll add. (btw, not that i'd ever advocate any Pyro build that didn't use the CB armor to begin with, mind you )


    Bottomline....

    Looks good on paper, but will fail miserably for you more often then not in actual gameplay
    Last edited by Mazam; 08-14-2011 at 12:54 AM.

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    106

    Default

    Miserable damage in PVP without 15 in AM. even with 51/15 I couldn't stomach the #'s, especially compared to 51 lock. And yeah, expect most targets to have 600 to 900 valor at least, usually 1k depending on your battlegroup.

  5. #5
    Shield of Telara Elerina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    748

    Default

    I have myself tried very hard lately to make pyro viable.

    I had a build with WL as second and Hastened Withdrawal from AM (so basically 32Pyro/18AM/16WL) which isn't all that bad.

    Pyro actually has some very nice CC and Flicker is just awesomesauce. And while Fireball wasn't really touched (despite everyone saying so, the nerf covered almost anything except Fireball ) it just doesn't deliver strong enough as soon as your target has some valor. Too long of a cast time for that kind of dmg. CB is still fun against low valor and seems to suffer even more, the tougher your target is.

    You're on the right track though, because I found that Opportunity does make a difference. 2 Fireballs almost impacting at the same time makes for some nice burst, totally RNG though.

    But skipping Pyro Armor is a bad idea. You desperately need every casttime reduction you can get and insta CB doesn't make an exception here.

    My build, mentioned earlier, felt kind of mobile because Opportunity and Pyro Armor really make a lot of stuff instant (don't forget Flame Bolt) and with Heat Wave active you still hurt badly. But not enough to make up for the time when Heat Wave is on cooldown.

    But hope remains... as we all know, pyro scales exceptionally with SP increases. I'm p7 with all pvp gear available and it's not good enough yet (or at least can't compete with 51 WL). However, fully p8 geared the situation might look different. You have to ask one of those freaks who are there yet (the legit way ) how that big offensive potential increase works out. (also, I'm not using the new Witchstones, can't afford them)

    To close, I played a little 38 Pyro/16 AM/12 Archon yesterday and while the dmg wasn't all that impressive, your CC actually can be. A melee train chasing down a running fang carrier can be severely shutted down by Backdraft and Lockdown. On he other hand, if you wanted to impact the match with CC you'd be a Dominator, wouldn't you? ^^

  6. #6
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    95

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elerina View Post
    But hope remains... as we all know, pyro scales exceptionally with SP increases. I'm p7 with all pvp gear available and it's not good enough yet (or at least can't compete with 51 WL). However, fully p8 geared the situation might look different. You have to ask one of those freaks who are there yet (the legit way ) how that big offensive potential increase works out. (also, I'm not using the new Witchstones, can't afford them)

    Not really, as any scale factor there isn't taking place in a 5+ minute PVE fight where you are more or less never the direct focus of any attacks. The damage increase (even using powerstones full time for that matter) from R6 to R8 is extremely minor at best, and really isn't making or breaking anything from that perspective.

    Heatwave has it's burst moments, but when put in a build that's not being backed by GoS, it's simply too easy to get shut down to be a reasonable backbone in any alternative hybrid build imo. In fact, the Pyro spec i primarily ran (effectively) with pre-1.3 didn't even have 31pts in the tree (28 Pyro/18 chloro/20 AM).

    With the rise of Warrior/Rogue specs that are putting out melting face damage at lightning spam speed, and with Rift's core game mechanics all but negating any "ranged advantage" for stand-still-and-cast-this abilities in it's pvp play, there's really little hope for the pvp Pyro going forward. At least in a competitive setting, and barring a dev (who does not even exist atm, btw) finally taking a good/long look at the specific problem/s involved (again, the 2 second spec'd cast time on Fireball being a biggie), and making a firsthand adjustment to the issue.
    Last edited by Mazam; 08-14-2011 at 09:28 AM.

  7. #7
    Shield of Telara Elerina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    748

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazam View Post
    Not really, as any scale factor there isn't taking place in a 5+ minute PVE fight where you are more or less never the direct focus of any attacks. The damage increase (even using powerstones full time for that matter) from R6 to R8 is extremely minor at best, and really isn't making or breaking anything from that perspective.

    Heatwave has it's burst moments, but when put in a build that's not being backed by GoS, it's simply too easy to get shut down to be a reasonable backbone in any alternative hybrid build imo. In fact, the Pyro spec i primarily ran (effectively) with pre-1.3 didn't even have 31pts in the tree (28 Pyro/18 chloro/20 AM).

    With the rise of Warrior/Rogue specs that are putting out melting face damage at lightning spam speed, and with Rift's core game mechanics all but negating any "ranged advantage" for stand-still-and-cast-this abilities in it's pvp play, there's really little hope for the pvp Pyro going forward. At least in a competitive setting, and barring a dev (who does not even exist atm, btw) finally taking a good/long look at the specific problem/s involved (again, the 2 second spec'd cast time on Fireball being a biggie), and making a firsthand adjustment to the issue.
    Extremely minor? We are talking several hundred SP difference. Mmmmkay.

    The rest I agree mostly. Pyro is fine when paired with WL for mobility through instant proccs. However, we'd need more punch. As much as people hated big CB crits, I somewhat feel they are vital for the pyro gameplay. At least in it's current rng state.

    Well, whatever, I still don't see a viable pyro build. And even when I'm p8 and got all the goodies, I still believe 51WL will out-damage pyro, so ...

  8. #8
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    95

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elerina View Post
    Extremely minor? We are talking several hundred SP difference. Mmmmkay.
    Like i said man, we are talking pvp, where nobody is/should be going into a scenario where you are trying to "parse" your way to victory.

    I don't currently have a reasonable Pyro spec to test, so i can't give you a firsthand # on what the before/after figure a +powerstone flamebolt/fireball is going to hit for. But yeah, 200+ spell power is hardly going to play out to be a game changer in terms of a Pyro spec's ability to consistently kill people.

    The game isn't played out on paper. The extra X amount of damage, that takes you X amount of time to see play out no less:

    Flamebolt---GCD---Countdown(wait for it...wait for it...)---GCD---2 second fireball cast---GCD---here comes that pushback....2 second Fireball cast...GCD....come on minus 30%hp already.....my low % proc stuff isn't going off...dang i'm dead to the 1000 physical hits i took in the meantime.


    ...just does not change much of anything there imo.

    There's no shortage of various mage builds that are capable of out-perform'ing a Pyro-based spec on every level in pvp. So other then some twisted attempt to handicap yourself as a pvp'er, there's really no reason anybody should be bring them to the WF table. Unless you don't mind being carried in the competitive matches by the good players who know better.

  9. #9
    Shield of Telara Elerina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    748

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazam View Post
    Like i said man, we are talking pvp, where nobody is/should be going into a scenario where you are trying to "parse" your way to victory.

    I don't currently have a reasonable Pyro spec to test, so i can't give you a firsthand # on what the before/after figure a +powerstone flamebolt/fireball is going to hit for. But yeah, 200+ spell power is hardly going to play out to be a game changer in terms of a Pyro spec's ability to consistently kill people.

    The game isn't played out on paper. The extra X amount of damage, that takes you X amount of time to see play out no less:

    Flamebolt---GCD---Countdown(wait for it...wait for it...)---GCD---2 second fireball cast---GCD---here comes that pushback....2 second Fireball cast...GCD....come on minus 30%hp already.....my low % proc stuff isn't going off...dang i'm dead to the 1000 physical hits i took in the meantime.


    ...just does not change much of anything there imo.

    There's no shortage of various mage builds that are capable of out-perform'ing a Pyro-based spec on every level in pvp. So other then some twisted attempt to handicap yourself as a pvp'er, there's really no reason anybody should be bring them to the WF table. Unless you don't mind being carried in the competitive matches by the good players who know better.
    Well, that's pretty much what I'm saying. Except the fact, that SP increase doesn't have to do anything with parses. More SP --> bigger crits --> profit.

    But as I already stated, I as well doubt it will be enough to make pyro any good. Since they took away the core of the build (high hitting crits with CB and Fulminate) plus getting rid of our off-GCD Inferno I doubt there is much hope.

    Lowering the cast time of Fireball and/or making it hit significantly harder is the only way I see.

    Still, I see some guys putting pyro/dom to good use. I tried it and found it.. well.. gimmicky at best. Good for 1on1 pwnage maybe. But I know one mage (at least) who tops the charts with it repeatedly.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Bleeds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,475

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazam View Post
    There's no shortage of various mage builds that are capable of out-perform'ing a Pyro-based spec on every level in pvp. So other then some twisted attempt to handicap yourself as a pvp'er, there's really no reason anybody should be bring them to the WF table. Unless you don't mind being carried in the competitive matches by the good players who know better.
    Can I make this my sig?

    PS: I also love how you said this game isn't played out on paper, right before you played it out on paper.
    Last edited by Bleeds; 08-14-2011 at 11:37 PM.

  11. #11
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    95

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bleeds View Post
    Can I make this my sig?

    PS: I also love how you said this game isn't played out on paper, right before you played it out on paper.

    I get it man, Heatwave can be fun. Now get back to me when you decide to post a video that consists of more then generously selected 15 second clips of you using a 2 minute cd ability, and one that shows the bigger picture involved.

    Ya know, like what you are doing when those cd's are down, or in a competitive setting that sees a R6+ warrior (or 2) in your face instead of a bunch of randomly scattering noobs your team is in the process of rolling over.

    On that note, how many of those clips showed some cc getting thrown on you? Must be nice playing on youtube

    Anyway, no doubt that spec can potentially put up a nice fluffy chart total (preferably in a roll job), if that and some random 15 seconds of fame is what you are after. Personally i play to win though, always, and still am not seeing why i wouldn't want to bring multiple/better viability specs to the table that will consistently help my team win more so then that one will.


    P.S. If you love that spec, i'm guessing you'd probably love the SC/Domi version too btw. Heck, with that you essentially don't even need to wait for your 2 min cd. Just get your 3 stacks up anytime, then start jumping around spamming your instants for some similarly leet ST damage action!

  12. #12
    Ascendant Bleeds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,475

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazam View Post
    I get it man, Heatwave can be fun. Now get back to me when you decide to post a video that consists of more then generously selected 15 second clips of you using a 2 minute cd ability, and one that shows the bigger picture involved.

    Ya know, like what you are doing when those cd's are down, or in a competitive setting that sees a R6+ warrior (or 2) in your face instead of a bunch of randomly scattering noobs your team is in the process of rolling over.

    On that note, how many of those clips showed some cc getting thrown on you? Must be nice playing on youtube

    Anyway, no doubt that spec can potentially put up a nice fluffy chart total (preferably in a roll job), if that and some random 15 seconds of fame is what you are after. Personally i play to win though, always, and still am not seeing why i wouldn't want to bring multiple/better viability specs to the table that will consistently help my team win more so then that one will.


    P.S. If you love that spec, i'm guessing you'd probably love the SC/Domi version too btw. Heck, with that you essentially don't even need to wait for your 2 min cd. Just get your 3 stacks up anytime, then start jumping around spamming your instants for some similarly leet ST damage action!
    I'm sorry... who are you?
    Last edited by Bleeds; 08-15-2011 at 07:43 AM.

  13. #13
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    95

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bleeds View Post
    I'm sorry... who are you?
    Had we ended up guilded together, i'd be the guy in vent advising you to run another build every time Best in Slot's A team and their mages over there rolled your squishy spec over

    I'm also among those here giving the op some legitimate feedback on his proposed spec, since i believe that's what he asked for.

    Who are you again, other then they guy who apparently likes to make extremely short clips of himself heatwaving down a bunch of scattered guardians? I mean you ask me the same as if i should somehow know who you are. I don't.

  14. #14
    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    4,000

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwindarf View Post
    dropping Pyromancer's/Fire Armor for Improved Warlock Armor

    increases magical damage by 10% (as opposed to Fire Armor's 5%) and also gives you a damage shield that heals on hits.
    0 Lock/0 Pyro/0 AM

    Fireball: 539-544, w/815 Crits

    25 Lock/0 Pyro/0 AM (+10% from Dark Power)

    Fireball: 593-598, w/897 Crits (We get the 10% increase.)

    30 Lock/0 Pyro/0 AM (+10% from Dark Power & +10% from Improved Warlock Armor)

    Fireball: 646-651, w/978 Crits (We pretty much get the 20% increase.)

    30 Lock/0 Pryo/0 AM (+10% from Dark Power & +10% from Improved Warlock Armor & +10% from Sacrifice Life: Damage)

    Fireball: 701-706, w/1059 Crits (We pretty much get the 30% increase.)

    Let's put some points in Pyromancer...

    30 Lock/18 Pryo/0 AM (+10% from Dark Power & +10% from Improved Warlock Armor & +21.6% from 3/3 Burning Bright)

    Fireball: 763-769, w/1155 Crits (We pretty much get the 41.6ish% increase.)

    30 Lock/29 Pryo/0 AM (+10% from Dark Power & +10% from Improved Warlock Armor & +34.8% from 3/3 Burning Bright)

    Fireball: 836-842, w/1262 Crits (We pretty much get the 54.8ish% increase.)

    32 Lock/29 Pryo/5 AM (+10% from Dark Power & +10% from Improved Warlock Armor & +34.8% from 3/3 Burning Bright & +40 INT from Flaring Intellect)

    Fireball: 847-854, w/1280 Crits

    So if we take Imp Warlock Armor off, we'd expect a 10% drop, right?

    Fireball: 793-799, w/1199 Crits

    It was a 6.8% drop - not 10%. But it had been working fine so far....?

    32 Lock/29 Pyro/5 AM (+10% from Dark Power & +34.8% from 3/3 Burning Bright)

    Fireball: 780-787, w/1181 Crits (We pretty much get the 44.8ish% increase.)

    Add Imp Warlock Armor, and we're back to the 836-842, w/1262 Crits. We get the 54.8ish% and are good.

    32 Lock/29 Pyro/5 AM (+10% from Dark Power & +34.8% from 3/3 Burning Bright & +40 INT from Flaring Intellect)

    Fireball: 793-799, w/1199 Crits

    The +40 INT gives us a 1.5-1.6% or so increase in damage. Cast Imp Warlock again though, and no - you do not get +10%. You get +6.8%. You get 847-854, w/1280 Crits.

    780-787, w/1181 Crits (+10% Dark Power, +34.8% 3/3 Burning Bright)
    836-842, w/1262 Crits (+10% Dark Power, +34.8% 3/3 Burning Bright, +10% Imp Warlock Armor)

    10% increase...

    793-799, w/1199 Crits (+10% Dark Power, +34.8% 3/3 Burning Bright, +40 INT Flaring Intellect)
    847-854, w/1280 Crits (+10% Dark Power, +34.8% 3/3 Burning Bright, +40 INT Flaring Intellect, +10% Imp Warlock Armor)

    6.8% increase...

    It is not just the IWA that goes from 10% to 6.8% with Flaring Intellect up, though. Both Improved Flame Bolt or Sacrifice Life - Damage (they cannot stack), should increase damage by 10%. With Flaring Intellect, they do not. Once again, you see a 6.8% increase in damage.

    The 0/0/0 build listed first gives you the base numbers which match the work Atavus did with his spreadsheet. 969 SP gives those 539-544, w/815 Crits for Fireballs. The +40 INT would take the SP to 989, meaning I should see 547-553, w/830 Crits. It would have been nifty to have had another Mage with me to be able to cast the Flaring Intellect, but I did not have one handy...lol.

    Still though, the +10% from Imp Warlock Armor should be 10%... regardless of whether I have 500 SP or 1000 SP. That we do not see that increase with an INT buff shows there is something wrong...

    ...you will not see the damage you expect with Pyro. Cause as noted, even Imp Flame Bolt's +10% increase in damage is only +6.8%.

    Have to figure that the +15% from AM is not really +15% either... though I have not tested it.

    Makes me wonder about the Pyro Dom builds with the increase to INT they are picking up - how is Imp Flame Bolt working for them?
    Kincayd (1)* - Omeki (1) - Comma (2) - Bugeisha (2) - Malphesiel (3)
    (1) Carrion -> (2) Threesprings -> (3) Deepwood
    *formerly Plague@Carrion
    DEFIANT

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts