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Thread: Easy Chloro question

  1. #1
    Plane Touched Magetron's Avatar
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    Default Easy Chloro question

    I've read a lot about chloro in 3.1 and i've seen a lot of arguments on it this is specifically for RAID HEALING


    People argue that 51 chloro 10 lock (5 ele) and 36 chloro 30 warlock

    my question is simple. How is 36 30 better with living infusion points for 51? and in the 51 build should I EVER be casting void life and natures touch only on opportunity?

    also I noticed in the 36 chloro spec people aren't getting natures touch. why?
    Last edited by Magetron; 07-25-2011 at 02:13 AM.
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    Plane Touched Magetron's Avatar
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    ok i see the living infusion is only 9% better for raid healing (i mixed the 0.5% and 1.5% viels in the tooltip. dumb I know) and the warlock gives you an extra 20%

    so

    how would one argue 51 is better? and what spells are worth using with the 36% build is it just vile spam and ruin pop when usefull?
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magetron View Post
    ok i see the living infusion is only 9% better for raid healing (i mixed the 0.5% and 1.5% viels in the tooltip. dumb I know) and the warlock gives you an extra 20%

    so

    how would one argue 51 is better? and what spells are worth using with the 36% build is it just vile spam and ruin pop when usefull?
    51-chloro is a better option for tank healing (using LBV, and primarily void life and nature's touch).

    36/30 chloro/lock is superior in raid healing (using LGV, and an assortment of nukes).

    I, as a chlorolock, DO take nature's touch and improved nature's fury (nature's swiftness), and include them both regularly in my rotation. The reason many don't take NT is they feel it's only worthwhile if they get the 2nd heal out of it from synthesis/LBV, but it's worth the extra second cast for doing substantially more damage/healing, and allowing the vile spores DoT to play out longer. Same with Nature's Fury, many don't include it regularly, but it's the hardest-hitting nuke we have, even single-target. Its heals aren't as good, since they're reduced (as it can hit multiple targets), but it's still worth throwing in your rotation to get your DPS up.

    Worth noting, as well, that chloro/ele is viable, as Tempest (30% additional critical hit damage) currently applies to Flourish/Bloom/Wild Growth/Withering Vine heal ticks, whereas the 20% lock damage does not. So if you want bigger DPS/heals based on LGV, go chloro/lock. If you want a substantially improved flourish/wild growth (the 2 main reasons to go this spec), go chloro/ele, and 34/32 gives you unlimited mana (37/29 is the minimum to get what you need). Although, since the tooltip for tempest does not support the fact of "bonus HEAL crit," many of us think this is an overlooked bug, and may be adjusted in the future.
    Last edited by Uhgii; 07-25-2011 at 02:39 AM.

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    Well... A few things on why 51 Chloro on Raids is equivalent to the warlock hybrid even if the apparently have 10% more DPS output. I will speak of the different effect per spell k?

    Void Life
    - Ticks per second meaning you can interrupt it to do other tasks faster while not loosing that much "healing time". Important when you have Opportunity specced or to cast Ruin/Bloom/Flourish... Always after the 2nd tick.
    - Looses its 3rd tick as soon as you receive damage. You have to get used to interrupt VL always after the 2nd tick, it's not a comfortable way to fight.
    - It's a channel meaning that it's EXTREMELY efficient as Charge Discharger... You just need to have EV up when pushing VL and deactivate it as soon as the effects starts... You get a full +19% effect by just spending less than 1 second charge. Again, an ankward way to fight... But extremely efficient.

    Vile Spores
    - It also suffer from pushback... But at least you get the healing at some point (In fact, see below, with the right ammount of pushback you get more healing).
    - Under Raid buffs... VS casting time takes less than 2 seconds, meaning that the 1st tick of "Nature's Corrosion" will never happen... Reducing its healing output considerably.
    - Proyectile Travel time. At the same time an advantage or a flaw depending on the fight... Based on the distance you have to fight from your target AND if you can precast VS before the healing is needed. The issue is that if you are gonna precast for a healing Alpha, NT is always a better option, even on LGV mode.


    The reasson on why I consider 51 Chloro better... is because you can fight as a pure hybrid (Paying around -5% HPS output... Flourish performance is not affected) and if you dedicate energy to optimize VL use you can outperform VS on Raids...

    ...While pressing a single key you can support any Main Tank healing, something a Hybrid Can't (ATM this functionality is badly impaired by the Synth range bug... It will be fixed soon so you have more freedom on were in the field you want to be relative to the Main Tank you want to reinforce)... Something very important on fights with AOE and MT healing separated phases (Herald for example). Then you have NS, which can also be a lifesaver when raids are receiving AOE damage AND there are packs of enemies grouped together (Again, Herald of Greenie).
    Last edited by Khumoth; 07-25-2011 at 04:09 AM.

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    5m edit:

    (Again, Herald of Greenie).
    Meant:

    (Herald or Greenie)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khumoth View Post
    Vile Spores
    - It also suffer from pushback... But at least you get the healing at some point (In fact, see below, with the right ammount of pushback you get more healing).
    - Under Raid buffs... VS casting time takes less than 2 seconds, meaning that the 1st tick of "Nature's Corrosion" will never happen... Reducing its healing output considerably.
    - Proyectile Travel time. At the same time an advantage or a flaw depending on the fight... Based on the distance you have to fight from your target AND if you can precast VS before the healing is needed. The issue is that if you are gonna precast for a healing Alpha, NT is always a better option, even on LGV mode.


    The reasson on why I consider 51 Chloro better... is because you can fight as a pure hybrid (Paying around -5% HPS output... Flourish performance is not affected) and if you dedicate energy to optimize VL use you can outperform VS on Raids....
    The vile spores portion is wrong, unfortunately. Sure, if all you spam is VS, your ticks will never go off, but then you're a lousy chloro/lock. Adding in NT, NF, and Ruin allows your VS ticks to play out longer, and more often. Sure, there's occasions you may clip it if 2 VS casts go off in a row, but that won't happen too often with all those spells in your rotation. Spamming VS is lazy, and is an ineffective way to play a chloro/lock. No wonder your DPS and healing output was similar to your 51-chloro.

    I've run both, and for raid heals, chloro/lock is simply superior. And I had no idea your 51-chloro outputted 720+ DPS. Since that's doing 10% less than my chloro/lock outputs. Most 51-chloros I see do anywhere from 200-400 DPS, unless they drop the use of void life entirely, which is ultimately 25-50% less than a chloro/lock. Plus, I've never been beaten by a 51-chloro, even on raid heals with LGV up, in healing output during a fight.

    They both have their perks, but in terms of blatant AoE raid healing, chloro/lock is far superior if played correctly.
    Last edited by Uhgii; 07-25-2011 at 02:00 PM.

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    The vile spores portion is wrong, unfortunately. Sure, if all you spam is VS, your ticks will never go off, but then you're a lousy chloro/lock. Adding in NT, NF, and Ruin allows your VS ticks to play out longer, and more often. Sure, there's occasions you may clip it if 2 VS casts go off in a row, but that won't happen too often with all those spells in your rotation. Spamming VS is lazy, and is an ineffective way to play a chloro/lock. No wonder your DPS and healing output was similar to your 51-chloro.

    I've run both, and for raid heals, chloro/lock is simply superior. And I had no idea your 51-chloro outputted 720+ DPS. Since that's doing 10% less than my chloro/lock outputs. Most 51-chloros I see do anywhere from 200-400 DPS, unless they drop the use of void life entirely, which is ultimately 25-50% less than a chloro/lock. Plus, I've never been beaten by a 51-chloro, even on raid heals with LGV up, in healing output during a fight.

    They both have their perks, but in terms of blatant AoE raid healing, chloro/lock is far superior if played correctly.
    Sigh... Always E-peen competitions... Well I disregard to do any comment on "DPS as Chloro" as any valid reasson to change specc (For the record... Still not full T1 Raid gear and my usual DPS as 51 Chloro is stable on 500 dps... In fights with Packs of enemies together with decent frequency like Herald, Alsbeth or Duke... I can ramp up to 700 dps)... But I repeat this are just "for fun" stats.

    If you are AOE healing like you mention... Is not strange you don't see the difference... The only power you have to "spam" to generate AOE healing is NF... And only when it can hit 3+ targets... Even a 2s VS generates more AOE HPS than that (Not more DPS, although) against a single target...

    ...If you spam NT or Ruin this just means you don't have them when you really need them which means (NT for Precast Healing alphas, Ruin for healing on the move).

    I think that you are just focusing on your personal DPS or haven't compared your build with a 51 Chloro that uses VL+EV in an efficient way...

    ...The main reasson is not that, although... The main issue is you generate AOE healing by:

    - Adequate use of Flourish (The same for both builds).

    - Using your WG at the right time (again the same for Both Builds).

    - How fast you are able to top ppl receiving small chuncks of damage. VL+EV adequate use can't simply be beaten here. Having Corrosion (Something most Hybrid lack) also adds a layer of fast recovery ticks, specially when packs of mobs are together.

    - How efficient you are at synching your NT and Ruin with the frequency of damage (or movement on the fight). That if you keep on spamming to not loose VS HPS output, I'm afraid, will not be good.


    So in short... If you want to see the world from a 51 Chloro PoV, drop that 1 button macro, use NF, NT and Ruin when you really need to, practice VL interruption (And EV intermitent use) and pay attention to your HPS, not your DPS.
    Last edited by Khumoth; 07-26-2011 at 01:17 AM.

  8. #8
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    5m edit rule:

    I understand that the Hybrid is still very easy to use and "robust" requiring less "micromanagement" but...

    ...On 1.4 DoL will receive Smart Healing... So you better start droping that DPS approach and start focus on how to improve your recovery healing both under small chucks regime and under AOE pulses or...

    ...You may find yourself replaced by a Cleric pressing 1 key each 1.5s... While providing better "DPS" than you.
    Last edited by Khumoth; 07-26-2011 at 01:26 AM.

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    Played both extensivley, Chlorolock produces a lot more DPS and HPS when played properly.
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    Played both extensivley, Chlorolock produces a lot more DPS and HPS when played properly.
    Played both, 51 Chloro/10 Lock/5 Ele produces more HPS when played properly (And less DPS than a Chlorolock)... Specially if there is an Icar around as your competition for healing AOE pulses.

    If all you compare is another slow reacting Chlorolock, you don't see the difference... When you get icars beating you hands down on healing recovery (I repeat, on AOE pulses scenarios)... You may start to wonder why... And at some point you will realize the bottom problem is what most Chlorolocks are after... The 1 button macro.


    EDIT: Maybe I'm too obscure... But I hope all the "experts" here understand why healing reaction time matters when the ammount of effective heal is limited on each AOE pulse... That's why it's important to compare with a DoL user... Specially for 1.4 changes (I recommend to use Plutonus now... And be sure your DoL user knows how to maneuver to follow Cipher application so his DoL is always as efficient as possible... After 1.4 she/he will not need this "finnesse" it will be like our Flourish).
    Last edited by Khumoth; 07-26-2011 at 03:26 AM.

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    Again the 5m limit:

    OFC a Chlorolock can get rid of his macro and manually start synching his cycles... But... That's the right moment to then get back to 51 Chloro and optimize VL use (relating to charge) and realize you are missing nothing (and you can always reinforce MT healing... Anytime, anywhere).

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    Ah another thing... Why you shouldn't compare 2 chloros against each other "on the field" directly is simple... Radiant Spores ownership is the deciding factor...

    ...That's why it's better to have 1 Chloro compared to 1 Icar... So Radiant Spores Contribution can be univoquely assigned to a single Chloro healing... And you can evaluate the real peformance of each build involved when AOE healing is at stakes... Otherwise what you end meassuring are those "anoying" RS cycles, etc, etc.
    Last edited by Khumoth; 07-26-2011 at 03:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khumoth View Post
    Sigh... Always E-peen competitions...
    I had no intentions of this, and apologize if it came off that way. I simply try to inform others of my experiences, just as you do, and I happened to disagree with the way you explained the one thing.

    I'll leave it there, and let you have at it.

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    Sorry for my tone also... Yes we can agree to disagree, but as you have seen around the Mage forums are filled with too much "E-rage" lately...

    ...1.4 will be another change "on the field" and another test for the different Chloro flavours, our different perceptions will change by then or not... Who knows?

    Thanks for reading and offering a different viewpoint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khumoth View Post
    Sorry for my tone also... Yes we can agree to disagree, but as you have seen around the Mage forums are filled with too much "E-rage" lately...

    ...1.4 will be another change "on the field" and another test for the different Chloro flavours, our different perceptions will change by then or not... Who knows?

    Thanks for reading and offering a different viewpoint.
    I see what you mean, and I understand your posts. This isn't an epeen competition for me, but I realize it is for many others within this community, but I understand both sides, and it's not that I entirely disagree with you.

    To shed a bit of light on my reasonings: the reason I worry about DPS, which is off-putting to you, is because I consider my role a support role. When I'm in my 51-chloro spec, which I do run and enjoy a great deal, I'm in a healing mentality. That's my role. As a chloro/lock, at least in my raid group, I'm filling in the gaps of heals, while outputting the most DPS I can. I'm usually a few hundred behind most of our DPS, but I do it while mindlessly adding in up to 1600 HPS. I'm like a bard, but his primary role is to keep his motif's up, and buff the party. My primary role is to do the most damage I can while assisting the heal team.

    If the heals are an issue, I switch to 51-chloro, and legitimately help out. I agree that DPS/HPS isn't everything, but for some roles, maximizing your overall effectiveness to smooth over any gaps in the raid group is incredibly helpful. It's nice having a strictly passive AoE healer around that can toss out 800+ DPS. If that's not what we need, then I don't do that. And that's not to say that I'm not watching the raid bars like a hawk, prepared to drop a CD (wild growth, flourish, bloom, essence surge, battle res, etc.) as necessary. I'm a utility position with the ability to output a lot of heals. I am NOT a healer in the classic sense.
    Last edited by Uhgii; 07-26-2011 at 04:19 AM.

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