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Thread: PvP and casttimes

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    Plane Touched Baluba's Avatar
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    Default PvP and casttimes

    At the moment I cant say that the state of mage in PvP is really competetive. This due to multiple factors. Even with p6 gear, warriors and rogues can rip through you in a couple a seconds. Mage do not have any defense against physical dmg, save for detaunt and transference. These are also targeted abilties which basically only makes u able to semicounter one attacker at a time. All the other classes have ways to mitigate dmg from several attackers at once. Combine this drawback with the squishyiest class in the game, and the fact that the mage dmg as of now also is subpar to other classes save for the occasional aoe, and you got a severe balancing issue that needs to be resolved.

    My main concern however is the fact that most important mage skills have casttimes. I suspect trion try their balancing on practice dummies, cause this is also an important concern that i dont feel is adressed properly. In tense PvP matches my spells with casttimes 2sec are failing about 1/3-1/2 of the time due to the target running out of line of sight, running away or simply running through the caster so you are no longer facing him at the spell end.

    Missing with important spells so much put us on an even greater disadvantage compared to rogues/wars which have all their combatabilities being instacasts.

    This means a well played rogue/war will wipe a mage. Im p6 and i usually win duels, even against evengeared players. However, when i meet a player that actually knows the full extent of his character, how to use the environment and actually actively dodges spells, there is really not much a mage can do. Yes I can shut him down for a couple seconds, but with the meager dmgoutput of mages, and the vast array of dmgmitigation to their disposal combat atm is not balanced in an evenfooted environment.

    I hope this will be adressed, cause mages atm are not working as they were initially intended from alphas/betas. They are weak, hard to play and do not have the damageoutput to compensate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baluba View Post
    At the moment I cant say that the state of mage in PvP is really competetive. This due to multiple factors. Even with p6 gear, warriors and rogues can rip through you in a couple a seconds. Mage do not have any defense against physical dmg, save for detaunt and transference. These are also targeted abilties which basically only makes u able to semicounter one attacker at a time. All the other classes have ways to mitigate dmg from several attackers at once. Combine this drawback with the squishyiest class in the game, and the fact that the mage dmg as of now also is subpar to other classes save for the occasional aoe, and you got a severe balancing issue that needs to be resolved.

    My main concern however is the fact that most important mage skills have casttimes. I suspect trion try their balancing on practice dummies, cause this is also an important concern that i dont feel is adressed properly. In tense PvP matches my spells with casttimes 2sec are failing about 1/3-1/2 of the time due to the target running out of line of sight, running away or simply running through the caster so you are no longer facing him at the spell end.

    Missing with important spells so much put us on an even greater disadvantage compared to rogues/wars which have all their combatabilities being instacasts.

    This means a well played rogue/war will wipe a mage. Im p6 and i usually win duels, even against evengeared players. However, when i meet a player that actually knows the full extent of his character, how to use the environment and actually actively dodges spells, there is really not much a mage can do. Yes I can shut him down for a couple seconds, but with the meager dmgoutput of mages, and the vast array of mgmitigation to their disposal combat atm is not balanced in an evenfooted environment.

    I hope this will be adressed, cause mages atm are not working as they were initially intended from alphas/betas. They are weak, hard to play and do not have the damageoutput to compensate.
    Well we actually do im warlock (nedras essence). But if fireballs did 1k-2k and fulm and cinder damage werent reduced and inferno was off gcd we would have the most vaible mage soul. Since pyro obviosuly was meant for pvp i mean its branches have cc reducer and brk free/run away. I know that most ppl would say i wont the age of pyro back. But lets think about it a rogue/war on non crits do 600 per attack with a 1sec gcd which equates into 1200 (non crit i remind u) while we stand still casting a 2sec spell that may do 500-600 and unless it crits u basically killed your self. This is just one soul (the most broken imo).

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    i don't have too much issue with cast time. my biggest issue is with spell push-back. no reason for it other than to punish the mage who stays in melee range. 90% of the time there isn't anything you can do to get away from the melee and you have to spec to deeply into AM to get even 50% it's not worth it.

    should just add a 30% reduction to melee ability damage if they hit an attack while moving. i'm sure it's not easy to swing 2 weapons while circling your target at full tilt.
    Last edited by casus belli; 07-24-2011 at 03:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by casus belli View Post
    i don't have too much issue with cast time. my biggest issue is with spell push-back. no reason for it other than to punish the mage who stays in melee range. 90% of the time there isn't anything you can do to get away from the melee and you have to spec to deeply into AM to get even 50% it's not worth it.

    should just add a 30% reduction to melee ability damage if they hit an attack while moving. i'm sure it's not easy to swing 2 weapons while circling your target at full tilt.
    The pushbacktime doesnt concern me that much, cause if you try to cast a spell with casttime at meleerange youre stupid and have already lost, as an evengeared warrior/rogue will kill you before your spell will finish or simply interrupt you. Also chances are you wont even hit with it as any war/rogue with half a brain will time the cast so they will run through you at the end of the cast and thus make the spell fail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baluba View Post
    The pushbacktime doesnt concern me that much, cause if you try to cast a spell with casttime at meleerange youre stupid and have already lost, as an evengeared warrior/rogue will kill you before your spell will finish or simply interrupt you. Also chances are you wont even hit with it as any war/rogue with half a brain will time the cast so they will run through you at the end of the cast and thus make the spell fail.
    if you're going to provide feedback on game mechanics, at least be current on them plox.
    This is why we can't have nice things.

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    If the target is behind you when you finish your spell your spell will fail. Thats a fact. I dont care if anyone claims its fixed, cause its not. Happens all the time in pvp. Or perhaps youre to preoccupied with getting ganked that you dont notice the little red text with "you have to be facing your target", and the fact that your target takes no dmg.

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    Faster gcds and autofacing would be nice. Rift has made melee easy mode with so many easily 1 button macro stuns, fears and gap closers, it would be nice for us ranged to have a fighting chance. We already have cast times and we don't hit hard enough to justify them, give us a little burst if we are suppsosed to be glass cannons.
    Last edited by Mizuno; 07-24-2011 at 06:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baluba View Post
    If the target is behind you when you finish your spell your spell will fail. Thats a fact. I dont care if anyone claims its fixed, cause its not. Happens all the time in pvp. Or perhaps youre to preoccupied with getting ganked that you dont notice the little red text with "you have to be facing your target", and the fact that your target takes no dmg.
    ive never had a problem with this.

    but then I also mouse turn with my target. makes sins very unhappy.

    and no, casting in melee range is not stupid. sometimes you have to do what you have to do when all other options are immune...err...exhausted. spells get interrupted. deal with it. learn to fake a junk cast to get them to blow their interrupt then wind up the big nuke (do we have any?).

    casting at a distance is stupid because any MM with half a brain will just interrupt your cast a-hur-dur.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mizuno View Post
    Faster gcds and autofacing would be nice. Rift has made melee easy mode with so many easily 1 button macro stuns, fears and gap closers, it would be nice for us ranged to have a fighting chance. We already have cast times and we don't hit hard enough to justify them, give us a little burst if we are suppsosed to be glass cannons.
    remove casting push-back and remove reactive abilities from macros. or at the very least, don't allow reactive abilities to be used in the same macro as a standard ability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by casus belli View Post
    and no, casting in melee range is not stupid. sometimes you have to do what you have to do when all other options are immune...err...exhausted. spells get interrupted. deal with it. learn to fake a junk cast to get them to blow their interrupt then wind up the big nuke (do we have any?).
    Not sure what kinda greenies you are fighting, but "faking a junkcast". Where Im coming from that faking takes long enough for you to take an additional 2k dmg right there.. Dead mage.

    The LoS thing, the pushback and casttimes are all issues that really cant be justified with the current pathetic state of the mage class. I doubt even if these were removed we would not be comparable dps wise to rogues and warriors (hold for aoe).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baluba View Post
    At the moment I cant say that the state of mage in PvP is really competetive. This due to multiple factors. Even with p6 gear, warriors and rogues can rip through you in a couple a seconds. Mage do not have any defense against physical dmg, save for detaunt and transference. These are also targeted abilties which basically only makes u able to semicounter one attacker at a time. All the other classes have ways to mitigate dmg from several attackers at once. Combine this drawback with the squishyiest class in the game, and the fact that the mage dmg as of now also is subpar to other classes save for the occasional aoe, and you got a severe balancing issue that needs to be resolved.

    My main concern however is the fact that most important mage skills have casttimes. I suspect trion try their balancing on practice dummies, cause this is also an important concern that i dont feel is adressed properly. In tense PvP matches my spells with casttimes 2sec are failing about 1/3-1/2 of the time due to the target running out of line of sight, running away or simply running through the caster so you are no longer facing him at the spell end.

    Missing with important spells so much put us on an even greater disadvantage compared to rogues/wars which have all their combatabilities being instacasts.

    This means a well played rogue/war will wipe a mage. Im p6 and i usually win duels, even against evengeared players. However, when i meet a player that actually knows the full extent of his character, how to use the environment and actually actively dodges spells, there is really not much a mage can do. Yes I can shut him down for a couple seconds, but with the meager dmgoutput of mages, and the vast array of dmgmitigation to their disposal combat atm is not balanced in an evenfooted environment.

    I hope this will be adressed, cause mages atm are not working as they were initially intended from alphas/betas. They are weak, hard to play and do not have the damageoutput to compensate.




    /sign





    Here a quick Quote:


    Quote Originally Posted by Lloigor View Post
    I still can`t believe how bad Trion treats us Mages.

    Mages should be a Glass-Cannon. What we are is Glass and nothingelse.

    For usuall Mages should be best DD with some nice extras for CC and shields to protect themselves; some nice survival-skills.



    But theese are the facts:



    PvP: The Immunity-System.


    It was very important to find a system as the Warriors and Rogues had to many CCs with a very short CD on them.

    Now Trion has found a system that lets you read Immun Immun Immun all the time when playing PvP. I really can´t read it anymore!

    As playing a Mage I should have some possibilites to get distance between me and a melee. This won´t work because of the Immun-System, Trion has implemented.

    On the other hand, playing a Mage means having no talents, that could bypass the Immunity. The only thing we can do is to die.

    We have no real survival skills.
    Our shields are worthless, as the dmg they absorb is still to low. And when stunned or CCd you can´t use them.

    The only „shield“ that helps us is Neddra´s Essence (Warlock); but its CD is much to high.
    And, as a Rogue and Warriors have different abbilities for beeing Immun against DMG and everythinelse, Neddras Essence won´t work, as the Rogues Immunity is much too long.


    Of course you could say, that the Mage also benefits from the Immun-Systen.
    Wrong! Absolutely wrong!

    As the burst of a Rogue or a Warrior is extremely high, we are dieing in just one blink; we are still one- or two-hits fort them! The Immunity-System is worthless for us!

    The only things that helps us a little were Storm Shackle and Traitorous Influence. But now Traitourus Influence should be nerfed. And I wonder why.

    If a Rogue is Immun, you can make no DMG on him nor would a talent like Shackle or Traitourus work. But he can kill you in a blink!
    Other classes can easly dispell these talents.
    So as Mage u cant use your strong weapons that often.

    In addition, other classes have much more outs, when CCd. Mage has nothing but Flicker (Pyro), or Break Free (Arch Mage).
    But, as mentioned earlier, theese skills won´t help us, as we still are one- or two-hits for our enemies!

    Even Blizzard has realized, that Rogues (and other classes) should not have the ability to one- or two-hit other classes!



    PvE:


    Playing a Mage means, as far as my experiences are concerned, you are only approved to T3 as full Chloro or full Archont, as our DMG-Output is much too low, compared to other classes.
    We have extremly long and complex rotations, screwed up with any movement. Other classes can do much more DPS by just using a one- ort two-key-macro.
    Wow! That´s kind of fair!

    And this is the reason, why Mages are getting replaced by other classes.

    Meanwhile, I have seen some players given up playing their Mage (for reasons mentioned above) to finally play a different class wich is accepted as DD and brings much better survival-skills and support as a Mage ever could do.

    Other players already quit playing Rift for exactly these reasons I have already outlined:

    „As for me, playing a Mage, the game is done right after T2, just because of the less DPS compared with other classes, there is someting going wrong in this game“.

    Also see this:
    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...edom-of-choice



    To call a Spade a Spade:

    Mage is broken.
    We have two souls for support.
    We have no dmg-soul that could compete with dmg-souls of other classes.
    We have very long and difficult rotations (for example SC/Ele) getting screwed up with any movement.
    We have the worst survivability, particularly for PvP.



    So Trion please tell me:

    When will we finally get our Mages?
    When are we permitted to make at least the same DMG as other classes?
    When will we get survival skills, that will work against our enemies?


    When will we get our Mages?




    Here some suggestions:


    Quote Originally Posted by Lloigor View Post
    Survivalbility:

    The Mage needs defenetly some better Shields.

    Icy Shield, Icy Vortex and Storm Guard for example do not absorb enough DMG.

    It makes quite no difference, if a Warrior kills us with 1-2 or 2-3 hits.

    Static Barrier was a nice thought, but it is useless as our Enemies are most of the time Immun agains it.

    What we need is something like Neddra´s Essence and Shadow Life for each Soul-Tree.





    Stormcaller:

    Get rid of Icy Vortex and Storm Guard and give us something like:

    Static :
    Instant
    40 Sec. CD
    Surrounds the Mage with electrical energy.
    Up to 10 Enemies within 10 Meters around you will be knocked back 12 Meters.
    In addition their movement-speed will be decreased by 60%.

    Static Barrier:
    Instant
    90 Sec. CD
    Makes the Mage 6 Sec. immun against all kind of DMG.





    Pyromancer:

    Many people loves to play their Pyromancer. What they dont´ like is useing Ground of Power all the time. Mage must be able to move freely without having to set his Grounds all the time again and again.

    Here is a nice idea for changeing this into a passiv Talent.
    This Talent also would be the first Synergie-Skill for the Pyromancer-Tree and should be in T1 or T2.

    On Fire:
    After remaining stationary for 9/6/3 Sec. you will get the Buff „On Fire“.
    The Buff „On Fire“ will inrease your Spell-DMG by 5/10/15%.

    Flicker:
    This should be a Zero-Talent like Shadow Shift (Rogue Riftstalker).

    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...epresentations





    Maybe Trion should re-work the Mage and give us more Instant-Spells or Spells, that could be casted when walking just like in Guild Wars 2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baluba View Post
    Not sure what kinda greenies you are fighting, but "faking a junkcast". Where Im coming from that faking takes long enough for you to take an additional 2k dmg right there.. Dead mage..
    sorry but most of the people i fight are p6 and it's usually more than one warrior at a time. if you're going down in under 2 seconds it's an issue with your gear, spec or how you play.

    i can see this thread going nowhere.

  13. #13
    Telaran
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    At the moment I cant say that the state of mage in PvP is really competetive. This due to multiple factors. Even with p6 gear, warriors and rogues can rip through you in a couple a seconds. Mage do not have any defense against physical dmg, save for detaunt and transference. These are also targeted abilties which basically only makes u able to semicounter one attacker at a time. All the other classes have ways to mitigate dmg from several attackers at once. Combine this drawback with the squishyiest class in the game, and the fact that the mage dmg as of now also is subpar to other classes save for the occasional aoe, and you got a severe balancing issue that needs to be resolved.

    My main concern however is the fact that most important mage skills have casttimes. I suspect trion try their balancing on practice dummies, cause this is also an important concern that i dont feel is adressed properly. In tense PvP matches my spells with casttimes 2sec are failing about 1/3-1/2 of the time due to the target running out of line of sight, running away or simply running through the caster so you are no longer facing him at the spell end.

    Missing with important spells so much put us on an even greater disadvantage compared to rogues/wars which have all their combatabilities being instacasts.

    This means a well played rogue/war will wipe a mage. Im p6 and i usually win duels, even against evengeared players. However, when i meet a player that actually knows the full extent of his character, how to use the environment and actually actively dodges spells, there is really not much a mage can do. Yes I can shut him down for a couple seconds, but with the meager dmgoutput of mages, and the vast array of dmgmitigation to their disposal combat atm is not balanced in an evenfooted environment.

    I hope this will be adressed, cause mages atm are not working as they were initially intended from alphas/betas. They are weak, hard to play and do not have the damageoutput to compensate.
    Don't mean to be a jerk but I am tired of seeing posts like this. We have a few souls more than capable at r6. Experiment and practice and stop posting this nonsense. Yes I am a Mage and no I am not Dom.

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    In every PvP game I've ever played, the same thing is always true. Count the number of abilities you have to stand still to use, the more of them there are, the worse the class will be in PvP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by casus belli View Post
    sorry but most of the people i fight are p6 and it's usually more than one warrior at a time. if you're going down in under 2 seconds it's an issue with your gear, spec or how you play.

    i can see this thread going nowhere.
    I think I already told you. I dont compare fighting greenies or clueless players. Most warriors are NP! But then again there are those SKILLED P6geared warriors I would consider evengeared which can basically gank you in 2-3 sec even with 700 valor. And considering the casttime on some of the most important mage spellls, 2-3 sec is way too short to be able to actually miss casts due to casttimes and losbugs. Its just broken.

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