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Thread: Will the change to DoL reduce the need for Chloro raid healers?

  1. #1
    Champion of Telara
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    Default Will the change to DoL reduce the need for Chloro raid healers?

    This guy seems to think that one Cleric will be able to "nearly solo heal every 20-man". Is that correct? If so, will that reduce the need for Chloro raid healers?

    Quote Originally Posted by jMerliN View Post
    I don't think people here understand just how overpowered DoL with smart healing will be.

    For instance, I guarantee you I will be able to nearly solo-raid-heal every 20-man if it were smart targeting (no, that is not an exaggeration).

    Imagine HC. Now reduce its healing by about 3-5%. Now imagine EVERYONE in the raid being in range, all fight long. Now imagine me being able to spam it nonstop because mana isn't an issue as an icar.

    "Oh but you have convictions you need!" Right, and I can make crits give me 2, resulting in me needing 2 to 3 GCDs to have 4 convictions and I can have 4 convictions for when raid damage happens.

    Contrast 4 smart-target DoLs versus what I do right now. I pull 2k hps on most 20man fights with ease. I do that by using NO MORE THAN TWO HCs PER RAID BURST. The first reason of this is obvious: Mana preservation. I will use 3 on Hylas if people are low (targeted, and/or DC, or HBs depending on #s). The second is that I DONT NEED ANY MORE THAN TWO to get everyone to > 80%. A third will put half of the raid at 100%, and a fourth will put EVERYONE IN THE RAID to 100%. Yes, 4*10*(1200*.5+2200*.5) = 68000 healing over 6 seconds. That means I can heal off 3400 damage to EVERYONE IN THE RAID, WITH EASE with 4 convictions. (yes yes, I'm ignoring pets, but they *USUALLY* don't eat smart target heals from players, it happens but not often enough to be a major factor).

    Follow that up with 2 presses of my ranged-conviction macro and I'm back to 3 convictions, which means if necessary, I can top some people off, then go right back to 4 convictions and then back to hard-mode DPSing.

    DoL is simply absurdly overpowered as a smart-target ability. It's incredibly powerful as-is, this change will absolutely deprecate every other raid healing build.
    What do you think?
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  2. #2
    General of Telara
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    I don't think DoL is powerful enough to let a single -icar take care of raid healing, but it will certainly be very very good with smart healing.

    But the main thing leading to OPness is really range. On most fight you can be pretty much anywhere in the area and still be in range of everyone else which makes it quite "brainless" raid healing. You don't have to position your raid correctly, find a good position for you (or your Healing Communion's target) to be 100% effective.

    At least it will be a nice (and far from OP) addition for cleric tanks. Maybe that's the solution: put the smart healing a bit higher in the Justicar tree (as a passive you gain with XX points in the tree) and change the tooltip of current DoL to "heals the 10 closest friendly targets for ..."

  3. #3
    Shield of Telara Cabreon's Avatar
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    a cleric pulls 2k in 20 man fights means he has the fastest reaction time of his healers. I pull 2.2k-2.6k in 20 man aoe damage fights due to reaction speed and "knowing when to throw down the big aoe heals" (LGS air phase, soul fracture (oracle and hylas. Landmines and concussion bombs on the last phase of johlen. The entire duke fight(damn brownies). Warmaster when he goes werewolf form. Foci's call of darkness spell goes off. Herald's minion explosions and spawning. Pluto watching the laser beam and paying attention to where the tank is and when thunder clap goes off. Alsbeth Radiant spores wins this fight no matter what. Make sure you use Natural Splendor if an idiot in your raid forgets to move.

    That is how you Pad HPS meters gents . Remember radiant spores gives you the most hps.
    Last edited by Cabreon; 07-22-2011 at 09:56 AM.

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    No, I frequently play justicar hybrids in raids and they don't have that much healing power from DOL, all it will do is stop punishing us for having pets over in melee range and boost our ACT numbers a Substantial Amount.


    A good example of how much healing it takes to survive boss mechanics. Is warden Downpour+Tidal surge ticks for about 2k a hit for 6 seconds on 10 people (smart healing). Assuming 1 second ticks this is roughly 2000 HPS-per Target, and will safely carry your raid through an entire Soul Fracture on Hylas.

    It would take three justicars spamming doctrine of loyalty (each DOL is about 666 HPS average per target) to get to that number of flat healing output. Considering they have 1.5 second global cooldowns and can only cast it four times as well, it's quite obvious you're still going to need other healers.
    Kama, Cleric of Briarcliff

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kama Toki View Post
    No, I frequently play justicar hybrids in raids and they don't have that much healing power from DOL, all it will do is stop punishing us for having pets over in melee range and boost our ACT numbers a Substantial Amount.


    A good example of how much healing it takes to survive boss mechanics. Is warden Downpour+Tidal surge ticks for about 2k a hit for 6 seconds on 10 people (smart healing). Assuming 1 second ticks this is roughly 2000 HPS-per Target, and will safely carry your raid through an entire Soul Fracture on Hylas.

    It would take three justicars spamming doctrine of loyalty (each DOL is about 666 HPS average per target) to get to that number of flat healing output. Considering they have 1.5 second global cooldowns and can only cast it four times as well, it's quite obvious you're still going to need other healers.
    Mien of Honor should boost that quite a bit, + you have pretty good crit chance and somewhere between 30-40% more crit dmg/heal. I regularly crit for 1800-2k with DoL with several items giving str/dex instead of int/wis.
    Last edited by Vayra; 07-23-2011 at 11:30 AM.
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    Clerics are talking about how this change will trivialize raiding ... if that is true (and I do not know whether it is or not), why bring Chloro group healers?
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    If you seriously cared about raidheals, you simply used two -Icars:
    1) A Druidicar for melee, ST DPS.
    2) An Inquicar for ranged, AOE DPS.
    With even a little of smart postioning, you could well take care of the whole raid.

    The point of serious raidheal specs is:
    * against sustained AOE damage
    * against big spikes, where eg Flourish way outheals DoL
    * use of big CDs

    It's a welcome change, but I see it changing raid healing more than the fact that -Icars exist (long since !) in the first place.
    Last edited by lgw; 07-23-2011 at 02:52 PM.
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    * against big spikes, where eg Flourish way outheals DoL
    This is a common mistake...

    ...The main factor on who "outheals" who is reaction time as the Quote the OP brings states, the 1st one to heal triggers overhealing on the rest... As this factor is Soul independent, just look at the RAW HPS a DoL cleric is capable of and over which "deploying period"... There is no competition to make at equal gear level (DO NOT MAKE THE MISTAKE of equalling stats... I mean a Cleric & Mage using the same Tier of Gear... This is another error while making CL vs MA comparissons) between DoL and anything a Chloro can do for as long as the Cleric has time to get 2 Convictions between AOE pulses.

    The problem is that Flourish has Smarthealing and a high crit chance (Any Raid Chloro is already well above the 60% chance while using Flourish... So it's already on the "Red Zone" of HPS boost by increasing critical chance)...

    ...Icar builds have less crit chace but a +40% Critical Healing bonus...

    ...Who do you think will scale better the more gear is tossed in?

    ...In all previous tests DoL was very close to FL on cyclic AOE pulses... And this was with DoL heals wasted on random targets...

    ...After this change this aspect will also be "fixed" making icar the Best at healing AOE pulses doesn't matter what...

    ...What will remain for the Chloro? Well we still will be the best at keeping a Raid Topped when it receives small but constant AOE... Do we know any fight like this on Raids?

    Trion is loosing the North very fast regarding the Chloro (I agree with DoL changes, btw, as most AOE heals enjoy Smart Healing from quite some time) as they "rebuild" us on ALL fronts to later proceed to boost our competition SYSTEMATICALLY...

    ...The question is... How long we will have to wait for another big revision as we are made obsolete by needed changes on other Souls?
    Last edited by Khumoth; 07-24-2011 at 12:39 AM.

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    lgw
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    Gearscaling is not just a factor of +critmod, but also of basic SP coefficient.

    Flourish healing more on the first initial application matters (mattered) very much on AOEs like Hylas - it's not a big problem that it's on CD afterwards, it's still ready for the next AOE. The damage is also high enough to give everybody enough heal, no matter who pressed fastest.

    Furthermore, even if DoL didn't have smart healing, there were still smart raidleads and smart Icars that already solved the problem using smart positioning instead, so the change will rather help the bad players and be only a little improvement for the good ones.
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    Furthermore, even if DoL didn't have smart healing, there were still smart raidleads and smart Icars that already solved the problem using smart positioning instead, so the change will rather help the bad players and be only a little improvement for the good ones.
    This is just a myth... That's why they have to change DoL on the 1st place...

    ...Pets kills ANY kind of argument here, because that's the real issue with DoL (You can configure ACT to scan for heals "wasted" on pets on an encounter)... And you will discover that even on a WHOLE team that cares about possitioning (Some icars like to think they are "good" for possitioning... While in fact is the whole team the one that need to place themselves so the icar can do his job) the main factor is...

    ...Does the AOE power damage pets or not (1 point of damage is enough)? Do so and you will see why a ranged based AOE heal criteria is bound to fail on a game that seems to promote Pets as the way to do sustained DPS.

    Regarding FL vs DoL... Have you healed Plutonus AOE? Are you aware about the intentional period Cipher uses? Why do you think it's like that? Have you seen a competent Icar there? (I choose Plutonus because is the fight were the "possitioning skill" of the current Icars has the most impact). If you check this in detail... Extend your "recovery period" to a realistic 2s... Now compare your Tools as Chloro compared to the ones the DoL has (That's why I marked 2 Convictions between pulses as the "limit").

    Finnally, about the scaling, just record any AOE fight with a Chloro and a Icar performing... Check the numbers there (Crit chance and max ammount healed)... After you get the surprise I expect you to find... Ask both the Chloro and the Icar about the gear they used... And then try to imagine what will happen when DoL is not wasted (on pets mainly) and BOTH the Icar and the Mage are around the Soft Crit Cap (not that far for some)... You may end wondering why Clerics are the only Calling on the game that can get a permanent +40% Critical Damage/Heal bonus by the ridiculous cost of 20 talent points.
    Last edited by Khumoth; 07-24-2011 at 03:32 AM.

  11. #11
    Plane Touched Capri Moon's Avatar
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    Yes.

    Clerics will be unequivocally better at healing than chloro's. So while we're potentially rejoining the dps race, we will be dropping out of the healing race. I didn't realize there had to be a compromise of this nature but hey...

  12. #12
    RIFT Guide Writer Snarfums's Avatar
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    Any chloros that don't want to be entirely useless need to go to the PTS forum and post in the DoL thread in there. We need to get Trion to rollback this change because it is the dumbest possible thing they could have done to screw up class diversity and raid healing mechanics.

    There are a lot of Clerics that don't want this to happen because it will break any raid damage mechanic to the point of inconsequence, you guys are not alone in this.
    Last edited by Snarfums; 07-24-2011 at 10:29 AM.

  13. #13
    Prophet of Telara Flaviusx's Avatar
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    Chloros will be fine. We don't have a dog in this fight, this is between the clerics to sort out, their fear is the change will reduce build diversity among them and make certain builds obsolete.

    Raids will still want to run with 1-2 chloros, wild growth alone keeps us in the game, and chloro puts up sick raid heals as is. Two chloros can heal an entire raid on some fights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaviusx View Post
    Chloros will be fine. We don't have a dog in this fight, this is between the clerics to sort out, their fear is the change will reduce build diversity among them and make certain builds obsolete.

    Raids will still want to run with 1-2 chloros, wild growth alone keeps us in the game, and chloro puts up sick raid heals as is. Two chloros can heal an entire raid on some fights.
    I'm afraid you're completely missing what the Clerics are afraid of. Changing specs is not something that'd bother someone too much, the Warriors have had to do it all the time. We don't want this game to become imbalanced, which the change to how DoL functions would do. It will make us too good, too easily able to deal with any form of raid damage mechanic, and that is what we don't want.
    Last edited by Snarfums; 07-24-2011 at 11:34 AM.

  15. #15
    Prophet of Telara Flaviusx's Avatar
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    I'm agnostic on the issue of cleric builds for the simple reason that I'm not a cleric.

    If I were a cleric, I'd probably hate the change, sure, for the reasons stated, but I'm leaving this for clerics to fight out amongst themselves. To repeat: mages don't have a dog in this fight. Whatever happens doesn't affect us here one way or the other.

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