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Thread: suggestion for trion on chloromancer

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default suggestion for trion on chloromancer

    ok ok, we all know chloromancer changes are both good and bad in retrospect but I'm gonna point out something pretty obvious that they seemed to skip over entirely.

    1.so you made chloro either main tank heal, or AoE suppor theal no biggie that I can deal with

    2.as a result of #1 you pumped up our AoE for focusing on just AoE healing, which fits ofc since it's a specialty

    3. you cut our MT heals in MT heal mode instead of making them stronger by cutting the AoE heal to accomplish it . . . . . . . . somebody woke up on the wrong side of the gene pool to think that up




    soo, #'s 1 and 2 aren't so bad their balanced and not to much issue, but as for #3 WHAT THE FCK WERE YOU DUMB ***** THINKING. every damn game designer knows that if you make somebody choose between AoE, or focus *AoE heal or MT heal respectively*, you make those 2 FOCUSES stronger then if you were to do both

    example:

    focus AoE heal = heal 120-150 AoE
    focus tank heal = heal 120-150 tank
    tank + AoE heal = heal 80-100 AoE and 80-100 tank.

    ya these numbers are pulled randomly out of my *** but it should give you THE BASIC IDEA

    trion's outlook

    tank + AoE heal = 80-100 AoE and 80-100 tank *original setup with LGV/synthesis*
    AoE heal focus = *120-150 *current LGV*
    tank focus heal = . . . . . 40-60 *LBV + synthesis current*

    tbh i really don't see why they made us choose then cut our MT heal, to even MT heal in the 1st place you half to cut AoE so it's normally relative that by doing that you boost the other, but no they decided to cut the other as well.

    trion, I'd love to hear your explanation for this. though chances are this won't even be read, or responded to

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple
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    Oh I am sure plenty of players will be reading it as they wander by here on their way out trying to answer the question "why"?

    Part of that answer is they apparently rebalanced things around 5% of the players that are in top gear & end game content. Everyone else can get F'd in the scheme of it. Very poor business decision which almost exactly mirrors Blizzards mistake with Cataclysm. A game of this scope requires a large client base to provide the income to keep a sizable staff to maintain and continue to improve it.

    Whittiling away all but a dedicated few will not accomplish that. Shadowbane et al have proved that numerous times over the last decade. The amazing thing is that in the game industry, they favor hiring the veterans of these games who then make most of the same mistakes yet again. 3-5 years experience & 1-3 shipped titles pretty well excludes any new ideas brought in by new people. The best games we all remember were designed by mostly first timers from outside the industry who are now the industry legends after 15-20 years. A new designer with no prior experience will never be able to implement their ideas & observations from being a player for many years despite schooling and computer experience in another industry - unless they can self finance.

  3. #3
    Telaran Balboa's Avatar
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    It's ridiculous that well geared chloro can barely solo heal most T2 content and it's nigh impossible on others ( Ie Icetalon and final boss in AP); yet, when I raided last night, we trivialized ALL content with two MT with one chloro on each (LbV) and one Chloro with LgV up. 3 chlori healers, 2 MT and 15 DPS. It was ridiculously easy. That cannot be intended for chloros.
    When all is said and done ... too much is said than done.
    Rome wasn't created by meetings. They did it by killing their enemies.

  4. #4
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    Mentioned this in another thread, but one of the problems is how these changes are done on various classes. They make a raft of changes, but don't know what the cumulative effect is. Smart implementation would be to make one change and then see what it does, then if needed readjust or change something else.

    Most players once they learn their class, really don't like to have the entire thing stood on its head. Its downright annoying when it becomes a regular thing. I honestly think had they just took Rift at launch and made a few minor changes and scrapped 90% of the rest they'd have been far better off.

  5. #5
    Shadowlander
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    The main issue with Chloro is Living Infusion's strength. What started as a put more points get more powerful heals passive turned into you can't be viable without fully investing in the tree. Because you're fully invested in the tree, the soul's heals are being tuned to fully invested in the tree (and completely leveled), which means anything that might boost hybrids would make the 51 point chloro overpowered. All the problems with damage/healing levels, coefficients, and the emergency creation of Void Life stem from Living Infusion forcing complete builds. If Trion wants to reward deep investment in Chloro akin to the Warlock tree, they need to reduce the strength of Living Infusion to where it is attractive, but not mandatory.

    I'd suggest that the 1.5% bonus per point for LBV be reduced to 0.5% and the baseline with talents for LBV be raised to 55% or 60%. Hybrids become viable again, at the potential sacrifice of deep chloro skills, and those who take deep or full Chloro can get up to 10% more powerful heals and tools that the hybrids would sacrifice. Spell damage and coefficients would have to be redone, but those people who want something besides Void Life spam can do so.

  6. #6
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balboa View Post
    It's ridiculous that well geared chloro can barely solo heal most T2 content and it's nigh impossible on others ( Ie Icetalon and final boss in AP); yet, when I raided last night, we trivialized ALL content with two MT with one chloro on each (LbV) and one Chloro with LgV up. 3 chlori healers, 2 MT and 15 DPS. It was ridiculously easy. That cannot be intended for chloros.
    There is the problem.

    Chloro still need major nerfs in 20s.

    But every nerf kills anyone not in 20s and in 20s gear.

    There is now 1 healing class for 5s and it's a Cleric.

    Q times since the patch on my server have jumped by 30 mins. Could it be Chloro knows they can no longer heal 5s until they are over geared? And to get over geared you have to run 5s? Seems like a bad place.

    This game mirrors WoW alright. You can't make it hard if healers can heal. So nerfs are starting after 3 months to healers. You read the mana nerf in the patch notes? I'll bet most didn't. In another 3 months no one will want to play a healer because if you do the job they get nerfed if they can't they get kicked.

    You think Chloro in 5s are bad now wait until they are nerfed again because of what they still can do in 20s.

  7. #7
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonomi View Post
    The main issue with Chloro is Living Infusion's strength. What started as a put more points get more powerful heals passive turned into you can't be viable without fully investing in the tree. Because you're fully invested in the tree, the soul's heals are being tuned to fully invested in the tree (and completely leveled), which means anything that might boost hybrids would make the 51 point chloro overpowered. All the problems with damage/healing levels, coefficients, and the emergency creation of Void Life stem from Living Infusion forcing complete builds. If Trion wants to reward deep investment in Chloro akin to the Warlock tree, they need to reduce the strength of Living Infusion to where it is attractive, but not mandatory.

    I'd suggest that the 1.5% bonus per point for LBV be reduced to 0.5% and the baseline with talents for LBV be raised to 55% or 60%. Hybrids become viable again, at the potential sacrifice of deep chloro skills, and those who take deep or full Chloro can get up to 10% more powerful heals and tools that the hybrids would sacrifice. Spell damage and coefficients would have to be redone, but those people who want something besides Void Life spam can do so.
    One good thing about 51 Chloro is for those who have no clue on macros it makes it easier on them. You now just mash VL 75% of the time. You don't need anything else on your toolbar. Bloom a target heal (bad design for a heal through damage class). Flouish should have been a damage spell group heal. We could go on but Trion is a little bit like Blizzard they never read forums.

    If they did you'd think after 3 months 1 Dev would post something on them.

    Just post. But no. It's sad really. I guess they are scared of being flamed. Flamers are easy to deal with you ban them for 1 month. With each flame the ban grows by 1 month. Soon they are ban for life

  8. #8
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxxonknight View Post
    Oh I am sure plenty of players will be reading it as they wander by here on their way out trying to answer the question "why"?

    Part of that answer is they apparently rebalanced things around 5% of the players that are in top gear & end game content. Everyone else can get F'd in the scheme of it. Very poor business decision which almost exactly mirrors Blizzards mistake with Cataclysm. A game of this scope requires a large client base to provide the income to keep a sizable staff to maintain and continue to improve it.

    Whittiling away all but a dedicated few will not accomplish that. Shadowbane et al have proved that numerous times over the last decade. The amazing thing is that in the game industry, they favor hiring the veterans of these games who then make most of the same mistakes yet again. 3-5 years experience & 1-3 shipped titles pretty well excludes any new ideas brought in by new people. The best games we all remember were designed by mostly first timers from outside the industry who are now the industry legends after 15-20 years. A new designer with no prior experience will never be able to implement their ideas & observations from being a player for many years despite schooling and computer experience in another industry - unless they can self finance.
    I liked (like) Cata, but yeah, I agree with the balance around the top 5% not working.

    Unfortunately these 5% are exactly the people who flood PTS so they can see the new raid content. But I have no idea how the AE healing got through as is. Its faceroll easy as long as you have clerics on the tanks and chloros on the raid. Watch them "balance" AE heals with a big fat nerf soon.

    Apparently Trion is not good at noticing other groups beyond this top 5% - you know people below 50 (sending my lvl 31 defiant to a guardian town and through lvl 37 mobs to do the event daily, awesome) or who does not overgear the content or who might actually PUG.

    I still do PUG because I sort of like meeting new folks (we just had to server merge against our will, so there are lots of new faces) but on my mage I no longer heal them. And on my tank if its a Chloro as heals I have to admit I request offheals unless I know the player. They just cant keep a tank and a group alive anymore unless they are really good. And if the tank is slightly undergeared - forget it.

    No idea why Chloro needed to be changed in this way. Fix what does not work, leave the good stuff alone. Its not rocket science.

  9. #9
    Telaran Balboa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissibow View Post

    You think Chloro in 5s are bad now wait until they are nerfed again because of what they still can do in 20s.
    this is precisely the point. Chloro is a completely fubar'd class. They should revert to pre-1.3 - it wasn't over powered in 20's back then and was successful in 5's. Honestly, 5's are fun but it's not end game and won't kill anything to be successful in 5's. Not for anyone. The bottom line is they tried to "fix" something that wasn't broken.
    When all is said and done ... too much is said than done.
    Rome wasn't created by meetings. They did it by killing their enemies.

  10. #10
    Shield of Telara
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    I finally unchecked my Heal box in LFG. All I ever get to pop for t2 is as a healer. Maybe it has something to do with making Cleric the only class confident to heal a random t2 in a PUG.

    The changes need to be reverted today until they can actually test how it would play out in live under realistic conditions. Until then my Chloro will only see t1. I see a lot of people shelving it entirely and that's scary with the game only have two primary healers. Good luck with t2 pops and waiting on Clerics.

  11. #11
    Plane Walker
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    A few thoughts on this thread.

    1) Maybe chloros needed a nerf when healing the tank. Our group heals ability is at the level they want apparently but our ability to tank and group heal might have been OP? I still feel the nerfs were a bit too much but it's not as game breaking as people are making out. Icetalon is stupidly easy, the last boss in AP was always hard, simply put, if you have a switched on group who aren't clustering up and the tank doesn't kite the boss all over the place, it's easy for anyone, unfortunately that's pretty rare, just take a bard like you did pre patch as a safety cushion.

    2) Mage dev posted during beta in response to things.

    3) Post feedback on live saying you are struggling. If most of the playerbase struggles they'll buff things slightly. Maybe they'll buff synthesis slightly or something, that's about what we need if we need a change.

    4) Making it so that you gain fewer points from deep chloro means that you still would lack tank healing tools but hybrids could heal groups... the same? Pointless.

    5) There were objectives with this nerf. Make 51 points viable (done). Make us trade tank or group heals (done). Make us stackable beyond one per tank in raids (done). Give us a heal not dependent on damage that we can use a bit more often (done)

    6) NT is still a HPS gain on the tank. I find myself using natural healing a little but not excessively, and usually in very niche situations or just out of combat.

    I don't get how half the chloro userbase went from "I don't need help at all" even on fights I always took a bard because one single foot wrong with just me healing was often a wipe (tank a bit slow to move? DPS accidentally drops aoe on a tank etc? Game over) to unable to do anything. I don't get this, their groups were so tight and they were so good this was easy? But suddenly it's hard? I'm finding it a little tougher but not much. I don't get what's up here.

    Maybe it's the healing source engine I put in? I lacked one before. Still, that would mean you guys lack one if you're struggling, because I'm overgeared but I don't feel like I'm *just about* doing it.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devicus View Post
    A few thoughts on this thread.

    1) Maybe chloros needed a nerf when healing the tank. Our group heals ability is at the level they want apparently but our ability to tank and group heal might have been OP? I still feel the nerfs were a bit too much but it's not as game breaking as people are making out. Icetalon is stupidly easy, the last boss in AP was always hard, simply put, if you have a switched on group who aren't clustering up and the tank doesn't kite the boss all over the place, it's easy for anyone, unfortunately that's pretty rare, just take a bard like you did pre patch as a safety cushion.

    2) Mage dev posted during beta in response to things.

    3) Post feedback on live saying you are struggling. If most of the playerbase struggles they'll buff things slightly. Maybe they'll buff synthesis slightly or something, that's about what we need if we need a change.

    4) Making it so that you gain fewer points from deep chloro means that you still would lack tank healing tools but hybrids could heal groups... the same? Pointless.

    5) There were objectives with this nerf. Make 51 points viable (done). Make us trade tank or group heals (done). Make us stackable beyond one per tank in raids (done). Give us a heal not dependent on damage that we can use a bit more often (done)

    6) NT is still a HPS gain on the tank. I find myself using natural healing a little but not excessively, and usually in very niche situations or just out of combat.

    I don't get how half the chloro userbase went from "I don't need help at all" even on fights I always took a bard because one single foot wrong with just me healing was often a wipe (tank a bit slow to move? DPS accidentally drops aoe on a tank etc? Game over) to unable to do anything. I don't get this, their groups were so tight and they were so good this was easy? But suddenly it's hard? I'm finding it a little tougher but not much. I don't get what's up here.

    Maybe it's the healing source engine I put in? I lacked one before. Still, that would mean you guys lack one if you're struggling, because I'm overgeared but I don't feel like I'm *just about* doing it.
    If you overgear the content you are fine. Especially if you run with a static group all the time. And yes, I am pretty sure most of us swap trinkets and sigils/source engines when swapping roles. I did that before and after 1.3. Its really just the basics.

    Pre 1.3 in PUGS as a tank I didnt care what the healer was. Let me tell ya as a tank (who does slightly overgear the content) in a PUG post 1.3 Chloros are not making me happy. I die or DPS dies much more often than before. How are Chloros supposed to gear up? I guess we know - mages should DPS and clerics should heal. Because these PUG problems largely disappear when a cleric shows up to heal.

    And healing the average PUG on my Chloro is just more annoying than its worth right now. Guild groups fine. PUGS, I am out as heals. Good for the game? Really?

  13. #13
    Shield of Telara wallweasels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devicus View Post
    A few thoughts on this thread.

    1) Maybe chloros needed a nerf when healing the tank. Our group heals ability is at the level they want apparently but our ability to tank and group heal might have been OP? I still feel the nerfs were a bit too much but it's not as game breaking as people are making out. Icetalon is stupidly easy, the last boss in AP was always hard, simply put, if you have a switched on group who aren't clustering up and the tank doesn't kite the boss all over the place, it's easy for anyone, unfortunately that's pretty rare, just take a bard like you did pre patch as a safety cushion.

    2) Mage dev posted during beta in response to things.

    3) Post feedback on live saying you are struggling. If most of the playerbase struggles they'll buff things slightly. Maybe they'll buff synthesis slightly or something, that's about what we need if we need a change.

    4) Making it so that you gain fewer points from deep chloro means that you still would lack tank healing tools but hybrids could heal groups... the same? Pointless.

    5) There were objectives with this nerf. Make 51 points viable (done). Make us trade tank or group heals (done). Make us stackable beyond one per tank in raids (done). Give us a heal not dependent on damage that we can use a bit more often (done)

    6) NT is still a HPS gain on the tank. I find myself using natural healing a little but not excessively, and usually in very niche situations or just out of combat.

    I don't get how half the chloro userbase went from "I don't need help at all" even on fights I always took a bard because one single foot wrong with just me healing was often a wipe (tank a bit slow to move? DPS accidentally drops aoe on a tank etc? Game over) to unable to do anything. I don't get this, their groups were so tight and they were so good this was easy? But suddenly it's hard? I'm finding it a little tougher but not much. I don't get what's up here.

    Maybe it's the healing source engine I put in? I lacked one before. Still, that would mean you guys lack one if you're struggling, because I'm overgeared but I don't feel like I'm *just about* doing it.
    Well except that the changes ib question mostly failed in their plan.
    A) 51 isn't viable, it is a non-choice. By forcing 51 to tank heal Trion has effectively made pre50 tank healing almost functionally impossible. This has been a pretty much standard of pre50 feedback I've been given. Chloros largely asked for MORE options, not an equal lack of choice. 15 points on a 51 build is really not an option. Trion should of responded in a way that allowed new builds for chloro while keeping the status quo. Be fair Trions going to be forcing 51s on all mage builds soon enough. Then it'll creep out to other classes
    B) Separating AoE and ST healing was most likely an inevitable option. But did they really? Both gain flourish and both veils do aoe. Yes Lbv does half the conversion of lgv, but it still puts out decent aoe and spikeaoe with flourish. LBV should be ST only and convert all dps to the tank. For dungeons aoe would be covered by flourish. Our ST nerf was justified by th fact that LBV does aoe. Which was baaocallly a shoehorned in memory of LGV. :/ Overall Trion just doesn't seem on the ball really.
    C) Stackable was never a real problem. I wouldnt take a NH slamming chloro over a cleric. Asides aoe chloro I can't see many raids suddenly going "we need more chloros". Nor have many raids. If this was a goal, its bee hardly achieved.
    D) Nor are nonDps heal required. Bloom could of used a buff, which it got to ridiculous heal potential, but we definitely didn't need Natural healing and damage immunity phases are just nott stupidly common enough to need it.


    Overall the changes are basically of a goal to separate chloros healing types. However it's been done in a sloppy manner and covered up with a mm equally sloppy patxhwork "fix" that completely changed two skills just to cover a hole with tape. Seal the hole you dig Trion, don't just patch over it poorly and act like it doesn't exist. However if you have an issue always rember to give feedback ongame too
    the PTS exists for a reason people. Go on, give your feedback, and help make RIFT a better game.
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

  14. #14
    Champion of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallweasels View Post
    .
    Overall the changes are basically of a goal to separate chloros healing types. However it's been done in a sloppy manner and covered up with a mm equally sloppy patxhwork "fix" that completely changed two skills just to cover a hole with tape. Seal the hole you dig Trion, don't just patch over it poorly and act like it doesn't exist. However if you have an issue always rember to give feedback ongame too

    Also, if you cancel, remember to fill out the exit survey. I bet they pay more attention to those than to the forums.
    I am a lawyer in real life, but I try to roleplay an honorable character ;)

  15. #15
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    I have to agree with the guy that said this is almost a non issue. If you are geared for the content you can run the content as a chloro. Can undergeared clerics do it better than undergeared chloros? Maybe. But if you have a cleric in your group, you'd want them to go dps anyways since every class out dps' mages at this point. The chloro issue is a non-issue when faced with the more pressing lack of DPS issue that mages face. And if played well chloros are beastly. Over 200 DPS plus sufficient heals to keep a party alive ... ill take that.
    Andoreniel - 50 Mage
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