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Thread: Here is the absolute truth

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Here is the absolute truth

    For those of you that have not played MMOs long enough to understand the orbit of class balance, let me assure you:

    TRION ALREADY KNOWS

    As in every MMO, there is a cyclical rotation of class balance. To simplify that: classes take turns being the "best spec". Every MMO does it, and it's a common practice. This wasn't some unfortunate mistake that Trion accidently stumbled into. It is thought out, tested, and planned. The complaining that mages are doing right now, is the same as Rogues, Clerics, and Warriors have rotated through in the last 6 months. It was merely our turn in the nerf rotation. Why? Because it is impossible to offer diversity AND balance at the same time.

    As easily as we all want to lean back in our $34 Target Office Chairs and scoff that we could balance the classes if we had creative control... it just isn't possible. The only way to prevent imbalance, would be to give every class the same number/type of spells, escapes, cooldowns, armor values, racial talents, resistances, cast times, mana/health regens, interrupts, buffs, etc... EVERYTHING would need to be EXACTLY the same for every class, in order to create a balance to quiet the masses.

    But then, what would be the point of having different classes? This game would fail because it lacked replay value, and nothing would make sense. Warriors would be able to heal a group through a T2? Mages would be able to tank raid bosses? And, the second you made an exception.... the floods of QQ would start again.

    So instead, we recieve waves of excellence. For a period of time, sometimes as little as 3 months, to as much as a year, classes will be "amazing". 1 Class will be the "Best", a few classes will be "mediocre", and 1 class will be the bottom of the barrel, and they will spend the next few months on the forums QQing that the developer doesn't listen, that class never gets any love, and how many subscribers are bound to leave the game. 6 months later, it's another class' turn.

    It is our turn right now Mages. Mage-up, get some gumption, and take it on the chin like a pro. In a few months, Trion will swoop in, as though they have "finally heard our cries for help", and they will restore us to a better state. In reality, we will have just moved back up a notch in the rotation, and it will be some other class' turn. But "Shhhhh. I wont tell if you dont."

  2. #2
    Champion of Telara
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    IMHO, they intentionally overnerfed Mages to prove that Gersh was not biased toward Mages. There have been so many "Gersh loves Bright Wizards" posts that they decided to counter them with a massive Mage overnerf.

    Now, no one will compare Rift Mages to Bright Wizards.
    I am a lawyer in real life, but I try to roleplay an honorable character ;)

  3. #3
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cremate View Post
    For those of you that have not played MMOs long enough to understand the orbit of class balance, let me assure you:

    TRION ALREADY KNOWS

    As in every MMO, there is a cyclical rotation of class balance. To simplify that: classes take turns being the "best spec". Every MMO does it, and it's a common practice. This wasn't some unfortunate mistake that Trion accidently stumbled into. It is thought out, tested, and planned. The complaining that mages are doing right now, is the same as Rogues, Clerics, and Warriors have rotated through in the last 6 months. It was merely our turn in the nerf rotation. Why? Because it is impossible to offer diversity AND balance at the same time.

    As easily as we all want to lean back in our $34 Target Office Chairs and scoff that we could balance the classes if we had creative control... it just isn't possible. The only way to prevent imbalance, would be to give every class the same number/type of spells, escapes, cooldowns, armor values, racial talents, resistances, cast times, mana/health regens, interrupts, buffs, etc... EVERYTHING would need to be EXACTLY the same for every class, in order to create a balance to quiet the masses.

    But then, what would be the point of having different classes? This game would fail because it lacked replay value, and nothing would make sense. Warriors would be able to heal a group through a T2? Mages would be able to tank raid bosses? And, the second you made an exception.... the floods of QQ would start again.

    So instead, we recieve waves of excellence. For a period of time, sometimes as little as 3 months, to as much as a year, classes will be "amazing". 1 Class will be the "Best", a few classes will be "mediocre", and 1 class will be the bottom of the barrel, and they will spend the next few months on the forums QQing that the developer doesn't listen, that class never gets any love, and how many subscribers are bound to leave the game. 6 months later, it's another class' turn.

    It is our turn right now Mages. Mage-up, get some gumption, and take it on the chin like a pro. In a few months, Trion will swoop in, as though they have "finally heard our cries for help", and they will restore us to a better state. In reality, we will have just moved back up a notch in the rotation, and it will be some other class' turn. But "Shhhhh. I wont tell if you dont."
    Don't even bother, a huge percentage of people here are just like religious zealots, extreme left wing wackos, and people locked up and asylums. They are right, they could balance the game all in one patch, this is a conspiracy by Trion to hurt them, space aliens have taken over Trion and they fear mages so they are nerffing them, or somethings else equally crazy. People don't want to hear it they want it all and they want it now and they think by *****ing about it they will get it. You know my nephew he stamps his feet and says it is not fair when my brother doesn't let him do something or have his way, like stick a fork in a light socket or something too.

  4. #4
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raduk View Post
    Don't even bother, a huge percentage of people here are just like religious zealots, extreme left wing wackos, and people locked up and asylums. They are right, they could balance the game all in one patch, this is a conspiracy by Trion to hurt them, space aliens have taken over Trion and they fear mages so they are nerffing them, or somethings else equally crazy. People don't want to hear it they want it all and they want it now and they think by *****ing about it they will get it. You know my nephew he stamps his feet and says it is not fair when my brother doesn't let him do something or have his way, like stick a fork in a light socket or something too.
    Yes, you are right the rest of the MMO community are extreme lunatics in asylums who just want everything nownownow or they will take their money elsewhere. Just like little kids. Only with money. And options.

    If only we could all be more like you, so smart, attractive, tolerant, clearheaded, full of deep thoughts and insightful analyses - really just a modern renaissance person - THEN I am sure Rift would be a huge and ongoing market success.

    Aw well. Cant have it all. I guess be happy just knowing that you are you. The rest is really just static, right?

  5. #5
    Prophet of Telara Flaviusx's Avatar
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    Nah, I'm going to go with sheer blundering here. Occam's razor heavily favors incompetence over conspiracy for explanatory power, all other things being equal.

    The souls system in this game is very complicated, with an incredible number of moving parts. Achieving balance in this system is going to require superhuman efforts on the part of Trion. They are probably never going to quite nail it down. Every patch will change it up, and it's anybody's guess as to who will be the winners and losers each patch, Trion themselves hardly know.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merre View Post
    Yes, you are right the rest of the MMO community are extreme lunatics in asylums who just want everything nownownow or they will take their money elsewhere. Just like little kids. Only with money. And options.

    If only we could all be more like you, so smart, attractive, tolerant, clearheaded, full of deep thoughts and insightful analyses - really just a modern renaissance person - THEN I am sure Rift would be a huge and ongoing market success.

    Aw well. Cant have it all. I guess be happy just knowing that you are you. The rest is really just static, right?
    Not the rest the MMO community, just most of the people *****ing on the forums. While I am not terribly attractive and am tolerant about most things but definitely not others, I am smart not a Hawkings or anything but more importantly work in the industy and see first hand how multiple MMOs have had their decisions made. As for if more people were like me then Rift would be exactly the same as it was right now except the childish *****ing would be drastically reduced and there would be a lot more bad language, bad jokes, bad spelling and typos. Thank you for your sarcasm it was a refreshing break from the *****ing about mages.

  7. #7
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaviusx View Post
    Nah, I'm going to go with sheer blundering here. Occam's razor heavily favors incompetence over conspiracy for explanatory power, all other things being equal.

    The souls system in this game is very complicated, with an incredible number of moving parts. Achieving balance in this system is going to require superhuman efforts on the part of Trion. They are probably never going to quite nail it down. Every patch will change it up, and it's anybody's guess as to who will be the winners and losers each patch, Trion themselves hardly know.
    And not liking this is in fact a completely rational reason someone would select a different MMO. I am not in love with the other big title that has "talent trees" and I am not in love with Rift and its boom bust cycles.

    I get sick of the cat and mouse game in which devs (few, sort of smart) and players (many, sort of smart) min max around. It makes me yearn for the days when we had actual classes.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merre View Post
    And not liking this is in fact a completely rational reason someone would select a different MMO. I am not in love with the other big title that has "talent trees" and I am not in love with Rift and its boom bust cycles.

    I get sick of the cat and mouse game in which devs (few, sort of smart) and players (many, sort of smart) min max around. It makes me yearn for the days when we had actual classes.
    if someone wants to select a different MMO great select and different MMO and go play it, I wish them all the luck in the world that it makes them happy. But for the love of the gods don't stick around here and ***** about this one.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raduk View Post
    if someone wants to select a different MMO great select and different MMO and go play it, I wish them all the luck in the world that it makes them happy. But for the love of the gods don't stick around here and ***** about this one.
    Why? Because customers giving feedback is inherently bad and the devs are too stupid to be able to filter useful feedback from not useful? Can you personally not take criticism and are projecting this onto the entire enterprise called Trion? If so you have my sympathy. Criticism and mistakes are a fundamental part of learning and improving.

    Boards exist (among other reason) for PLAYERS to give FEEDBACK. I am a player. My feedback is that I am unhappy with the yo yo balance patches. The company can decide if this is a useful data point. Mages were overnerfed, its not OK, I dont want to have to use the ridiculous zerg pet build. And Chloros were fine how they were.

    I am not required to leave the game just because I would like changes. I dont think Trion would want this. Really you are just being very silly attacking the player base because they dont like 1.3.

    How about if YOU dont like threads discussing not liking the changes you go play the game and not post.

  10. #10
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merre View Post
    Why? Because customers giving feedback is inherently bad and the devs are too stupid to be able to filter useful feedback from not useful? Can you personally not take criticism and are projecting this onto the entire enterprise called Trion? If so you have my sympathy. Criticism and mistakes are a fundamental part of learning and improving.

    Boards exist (among other reason) for PLAYERS to give FEEDBACK. I am a player. My feedback is that I am unhappy with the yo yo balance patches. The company can decide if this is a useful data point. Mages were overnerfed, its not OK, I dont want to have to use the ridiculous zerg pet build. And Chloros were fine how they were.

    I am not required to leave the game just because I would like changes. I dont think Trion would want this. Really you are just being very silly attacking the player base because they dont like 1.3.

    How about if YOU dont like threads discussing not liking the changes you go play the game and not post.

    You totally suck you are such a moron why can't you get balance right if you don't fix this I am going to cancel my account, is not constructive feedback. If you can voice you feedback with a level head I have no problem with it. Flying off the handle like a 6 year old, please move along to another game.


    Oh btw never said not to give feedback, just to not act like a child while doing it. There are plenty of people on these forums that give very good feedback, however the vast majority are whiny children.

  11. #11
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raduk View Post
    You totally suck you are such a moron why can't you get balance right if you don't fix this I am going to cancel my account, is not constructive feedback. If you can voice you feedback with a level head I have no problem with it. Flying off the handle like a 6 year old, please move along to another game.


    Oh btw never said not to give feedback, just to not act like a child while doing it. There are plenty of people on these forums that give very good feedback, however the vast majority are whiny children.
    And you are a genius, coming to the board to start a complaining thread about complaining on the boards.

    Waste of planetary O2.

    This thread should just be locked - hey, since you "work in the industry" why dont you get your contacts to do that?

    Kisses and hugs,
    Merre

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merre View Post
    And you are a genius, coming to the board to start a complaining thread about complaining on the boards.

    Waste of planetary O2.

    This thread should just be locked - hey, since you "work in the industry" why dont you get your contacts to do that?

    Kisses and hugs,
    Merre

    I don't work for Trion, why don't you try *****ing about it maybe that will get it locked.

  13. #13
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raduk View Post
    I don't work for Trion, why don't you try *****ing about it maybe that will get it locked.
    Ooh profanity. That will absolutely win every debate. And its really creative to boot. You are just the sort of community builder that I am sure Trion wants once all of us foot stamping mouth breathing complainers depart. Then you will have reached nirvana. And it might be lonely. Aw. Even nirvana cant have everything.

    Go beat up a kitten or something and stop insulting players with feedback, commentary, ideas and (gasp!) complaints about mages post 1.3.

  14. #14
    Ascendant Stigas's Avatar
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    The only way to prevent imbalance, would be to give every class the same number/type of spells, escapes, cooldowns, armor values, racial talents, resistances, cast times, mana/health regens, interrupts, buffs, etc... EVERYTHING would need to be EXACTLY the same for every class, in order to create a balance to quiet the masses.
    Incorrect.

    2 + 1 = 3
    1 + 1 + 1 = 3

    Two ways to get there, same result.

    Balancing works the same way.

    But then, what would be the point of having different classes?
    Because you like the playstyle? What's the point of having different classes if one is always more powerful than the rest? Why would you play the others if you knew they were sub-par?
    Last edited by Stigas; 06-26-2011 at 11:25 AM.
    Stigas - 50 Defiant Mage - Rank 5
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merre View Post
    Ooh profanity. That will absolutely win every debate. And its really creative to boot. You are just the sort of community builder that I am sure Trion wants once all of us foot stamping mouth breathing complainers depart. Then you will have reached nirvana. And it might be lonely. Aw. Even nirvana cant have everything.

    Go beat up a kitten or something and stop insulting players with feedback, commentary, ideas and (gasp!) complaints about mages post 1.3.


    One last post and then I am done here it isn't entertaining any more. First I find it funny that female dogging is profanity. Second you obviously have no reading comprehension as I have stated several times that feedback is good, constructive criticism is good. Also i will say now just to be completely clear "feedback, commentary, ideas and (gasp!) complaints" are all good as long as they are not presented like a foot stamping child and is going to take their ball and go home. I never addressed you saying you were one of these people I never lumped you in with these people, yet you seem to have felt it necessary to take it that way I never named a single person and made it clear several times that I was not talking about everyone just a section of the community. Despite the fact that I have repeated said that I agree with a lot of the complaints people have made, yet you seem to think for some irrational reason that I don't think they should be be made and keep repeating that over and over again. There is no further reason to continue responding to your messages. Have a nice day.


    Oh and the last thing. Apparently it is ok for you to use dripping sarcasm but when someone else does it is wrong. Think on it.

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