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Thread: Archon Question

  1. #1
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    Default Archon Question

    My GL is screaming about going 10 pyro/5 ele and insists he has done the math to show it is the best spec for dps but when i compare it to the 5 pyro/9 dom spec, it seems to fall short by about 15k damage over three and a half minutes of testing. I realize the test probably needs to be a little longer and the fact i am not using ground of power is hurting the 10 pyro specs dps a little but i figured on moving boss fights GOP doesnt net me much anyway. I also realizze its possible i suck at pyro.

    My rotation for both tests was:
    Put up all buffs (standard archon and pyro armor and burning int if using the 10 pyro spec)
    Cast 5x PS for int buff
    Cast rock slide (for whatever reason i ended up with 5 stacks instead of 6 on the 10 pyro tet and 4 stacks instead of 6 on the 5 pyro test)
    Cast instant debuffs
    Spam Macro below
    cast Surging Flare
    cast Earthen Barrage
    cast Volcanic Bomb
    cast Leeching Flames
    cast Pillaging Stone or fireball

    Am i doing something wrong or is his theorycrafted math just wrong?

  2. #2
    Ascendant Stigas's Avatar
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    Might I suggest you ask your Raid leader why he's trying to nitpick over such a small difference?

    Seems there might be other ACTUAL DPS that he can talk to if you're having trouble reaching a DPS mark.

    Either way, 15k damage difference isn't that big a deal. As long as you're maintaining your buff/debuff uptime, using your CD's appropriately and filling in any gaps with any DPS you can, there's really nothing else you can ask of an Archon (aside from the occasional cleansing duties).

    Good luck.
    Stigas - 50 Defiant Mage - Rank 5
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  3. #3
    Champion of Telara Hethroin's Avatar
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    If I were leading a raid, I don't, but if I did... my 1 Archon would be the last place I look to gain additional "personal" DPS.

    Archon has the following tasks:
    1. Not Die.
    2. Keep buffs going on raid.
    3. Time and keep debuffs going on boss (can be moved up in some fights).
    4. Feed mana upon need.
    5. DPS.
    6. Bubble/Cleanse.

    Here is the DPS-slot list:
    1. Not Die.
    2. DPS.

    There are 10+ DPS-slots in a raid, and 1 Archon.
    Which one of these would be the best possible place to maximize personal DPS?

    If going 15 Warlock is what it takes for you, as the archon, to survive a single AE rotation from the prince, then you need to run 15 Warlock.

    I agree that everyone in the 20 man should strive to maximize their contribution, and that just because you have a little flag next to your name should not mean that your direct DPS contribution is meaningless. However I would not focus too hard on the Archon's dummy parse as a benchmark, certainly not if it leaves him with 4k HP and taking 10% more damage in the pyro ground.
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  4. #4
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    Right. If the Archon dies, it's not just their DPS that suffers. It's everyone's DPS, health, resistances, etc.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhdjoseywales View Post
    My GL is screaming about going 10 pyro/5 ele and insists he has done the math to show it is the best spec for dps but when i compare it to the 5 pyro/9 dom spec, it seems to fall short by about 15k damage over three and a half minutes of testing. I realize the test probably needs to be a little longer and the fact i am not using ground of power is hurting the 10 pyro specs dps a little but i figured on moving boss fights GOP doesnt net me much anyway. I also realizze its possible i suck at pyro.

    My rotation for both tests was:
    Put up all buffs (standard archon and pyro armor and burning int if using the 10 pyro spec)
    Cast 5x PS for int buff
    Cast rock slide (for whatever reason i ended up with 5 stacks instead of 6 on the 10 pyro tet and 4 stacks instead of 6 on the 5 pyro test)
    Cast instant debuffs
    Spam Macro below
    cast Surging Flare
    cast Earthen Barrage
    cast Volcanic Bomb
    cast Leeching Flames
    cast Pillaging Stone or fireball

    Am i doing something wrong or is his theorycrafted math just wrong?
    Debuffs are the first thing that go up ALWAYS. And which one is it... fireball or pillaging stone? Because if it's the former, you're doing it wrong.

    If you miss a stack of Rock Slide for whatever reason, just add the missing stacks 30s later.

    10pyro/5ele is a garbage spec. There's no reason to ever go more than 6 pyro.

  6. #6
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    I wouldn't even go 6 Pyro. 9 points in Dom with Arresting Presence is extremely useful, especially once they add the interrupt to it. The reflect is also great for a few fights and with Deny getting it's cooldown reduced we'll be seeing a lot of use out of that as well.

    What does 6 Pyro get you that 4 Pyro doesn't? A slightly faster cast on a couple spells and a ground spell you can't use half the time.
    People use the words "casual" and "bad" interchangeably, when in reality we should not. A casual player in an mmo is someone who plays the game but due to outside events cannot play it for long periods of time. A bad is a player who stands in the fire, ignores boss mechanics, complains about the former, makes nonsensical statements, wants to be pandered to, and all around tanks most mmos.

    Its like if I pay to take a college course that I know is supposed to be hard and instead of taking it, I complain and bother the professors that it is to hard. I dont study, I dont practice, I just complain. After all I am paying for the course so I should get an A+.

    I have not see mmos go harder only easier. I dont think for a second that trion is "pandering to the casuals that ruin our games", no I think it is that trion is making mistakes and feels that the bads who play their game for 3 months and leave are worth more than those who play for the entirety of its life.

    -Robertosaget

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hethroin View Post
    Archon has the following tasks:
    1. Not Die.
    2. Keep buffs going on raid.
    3. Time and keep debuffs going on boss (can be moved up in some fights).
    4. Feed mana upon need.
    5. DPS.
    6. Bubble/Cleanse.

    Noob question, how does an archon feed mana to anyone?
    Griefing - This refers to players who do not play the game as it was intended, but instead seek to harass other players as their main focal point. This includes stalking or attempting to kill another player's character that has no means of recourse within the game. To "grief" simply means that you are trying to negatively impact the game play experience of another player. A player on the opposite faction cannot be griefed. It is perfectly acceptable to take actions in order to get a player of the opposite faction killed using whatever means possible.

  8. #8
    Rift Master Guaritor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plutoniummmmmm View Post
    Noob question, how does an archon feed mana to anyone?
    Your 21 point talent "Mental Flare" is castable on other players, not just yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazzin View Post
    10pyro/5ele is a garbage spec. There's no reason to ever go more than 6 pyro.
    Yeah, I was just thinking that while reading the first post... I actually went to look at a soul builder to see wtf you got with 10 pyro, and even afterwards i'm confused what there gives you a dps boost o_O
    Last edited by Guaritor; 06-11-2011 at 05:02 PM.

  9. #9
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    Never would have known that from the tooltip.. excellent to know that. thank you.
    Griefing - This refers to players who do not play the game as it was intended, but instead seek to harass other players as their main focal point. This includes stalking or attempting to kill another player's character that has no means of recourse within the game. To "grief" simply means that you are trying to negatively impact the game play experience of another player. A player on the opposite faction cannot be griefed. It is perfectly acceptable to take actions in order to get a player of the opposite faction killed using whatever means possible.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plutoniummmmmm View Post
    Never would have known that from the tooltip.. excellent to know that. thank you.
    Heh, the same thing happened to me, I had no idea I could cast it on other players until one of our guilds older mages said something about feeding people mana in a raid... and i've seen several people ask that question on these forums too. They really need to put like "castable on other players" in the tooltip or something.
    Last edited by Guaritor; 06-11-2011 at 06:07 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazzin View Post
    Debuffs are the first thing that go up ALWAYS. And which one is it... fireball or pillaging stone? Because if it's the former, you're doing it wrong.

    If you miss a stack of Rock Slide for whatever reason, just add the missing stacks 30s later.

    10pyro/5ele is a garbage spec. There's no reason to ever go more than 6 pyro.
    There is one reason to go for more than 6 pyro, and that's to go 11 pyro for Flicker. Anything more than 6 or less than 11 is a waste IMO - I'll take flicker over 1% extra crit any day. My archon spec is 11pyro/4elem.

    The other reason you go with 11 in pyro is for burning intellect. This is only a side benefit, but since the only times we get a real int buff is for bosses, the +40 intellect is a significant boost to trash dps for the mages occasional cleric in our raid. This also suffices for situations where you don't have a bard (in a 5-man or a 10 man sliver raid for example).

    Since no one really runs pyro for PvE anymore, I would consider that a legitimate reason to go that deep into pyro for your archon spec.

    HOWEVER - the #1 reason to go that deep into pyro is for flicker. There is absolutely no reason to go 10 pyro unless you are going for 11 pyro.

    In my 11pyro/4 elem archon build, I am usually around 600 dps in raids with a mix of mostly t2 and a couple of GSB pieces thrown in. If I'm very on point with my Power Drain, I can boost that up to over 700 dps - this is mostly what I hit on Hylas since that is the primary job of an archon on hylas, to lessen the damage on the aoe spell there.

    If your raid isn't really counting on your personal dps, and you are looking for a more defensive aspect, definitely the 9 dom is the way to go, and for max survivability and uptime on power drain, you can't beat 15 lock.

    Thus, I would consider the following archon specs all legitimately viable for 20man raiding:

    51archon/9dom/6pyro - max defensive utility/abilities
    51archon/15lock - max personal survivability and charge regen/power drain uptime
    51archon/11pyro/4elementalist - just slightly less than max dps with movement cooldown
    51archon/9pyro/6elem - max dps with shield cooldown (elementalist shield)

    I would not recommend these:
    51archon/10pyro/5ele - There is no reason to go 10 pyro, unless you really want an int buff. either go to 11 pyro for flicker, or 6 elem for ice shield
    51archon/10ele/5lock - While the charge is nice, you're better off simply going 15 lock for the health boost/survivability
    anything less than 51archon - For anyone new to archon, you always go for 51 in archon, because the 51 point archon root spell is a massive boost to dps and healers in your group

    Also, it's not out of the question to ask an archon to max his dps. With the 11pyro/4ele spec, I pretty much never die unless I'm doing something really stupid, like standing in fire or pulling aggro on an add or getting cleaved. For the guy who said 15k shouldn't matter, I very much beg to differ, I've had more than my fair share of sub 2% wipes, and doing an extra 5k damage during a burn phase can make a significant difference on a progression fight.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrocaster View Post
    There is one reason to go for more than 6 pyro, and that's to go 11 pyro for Flicker. Anything more than 6 or less than 11 is a waste IMO - I'll take flicker over 1% extra crit any day. My archon spec is 11pyro/4elem.

    The other reason you go with 11 in pyro is for burning intellect. This is only a side benefit, but since the only times we get a real int buff is for bosses, the +40 intellect is a significant boost to trash dps for the mages occasional cleric in our raid. This also suffices for situations where you don't have a bard (in a 5-man or a 10 man sliver raid for example).

    Since no one really runs pyro for PvE anymore, I would consider that a legitimate reason to go that deep into pyro for your archon spec.

    HOWEVER - the #1 reason to go that deep into pyro is for flicker. There is absolutely no reason to go 10 pyro unless you are going for 11 pyro.

    In my 11pyro/4 elem archon build, I am usually around 600 dps in raids with a mix of mostly t2 and a couple of GSB pieces thrown in. If I'm very on point with my Power Drain, I can boost that up to over 700 dps - this is mostly what I hit on Hylas since that is the primary job of an archon on hylas, to lessen the damage on the aoe spell there.

    If your raid isn't really counting on your personal dps, and you are looking for a more defensive aspect, definitely the 9 dom is the way to go, and for max survivability and uptime on power drain, you can't beat 15 lock.

    Thus, I would consider the following archon specs all legitimately viable for 20man raiding:

    51archon/9dom/6pyro - max defensive utility/abilities
    51archon/15lock - max personal survivability and charge regen/power drain uptime
    51archon/11pyro/4elementalist - just slightly less than max dps with movement cooldown
    51archon/9pyro/6elem - max dps with shield cooldown (elementalist shield)

    I would not recommend these:
    51archon/10pyro/5ele - There is no reason to go 10 pyro, unless you really want an int buff. either go to 11 pyro for flicker, or 6 elem for ice shield
    51archon/10ele/5lock - While the charge is nice, you're better off simply going 15 lock for the health boost/survivability
    anything less than 51archon - For anyone new to archon, you always go for 51 in archon, because the 51 point archon root spell is a massive boost to dps and healers in your group

    Also, it's not out of the question to ask an archon to max his dps. With the 11pyro/4ele spec, I pretty much never die unless I'm doing something really stupid, like standing in fire or pulling aggro on an add or getting cleaved. For the guy who said 15k shouldn't matter, I very much beg to differ, I've had more than my fair share of sub 2% wipes, and doing an extra 5k damage during a burn phase can make a significant difference on a progression fight.
    I would like to point out that with 10 ele/5 lock is better on the survivability front then 15 lock, taking less damage is > having more health.

    You might be able to make a case in favor of opportunity, but that's also a dps loss so, meh.

  13. #13
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    im gop pyro. with my archon. Its nice. but yeah. not dieing is really important. /most important part.
    Archon thanks to self debuffs, has the lowest hp, and lowest resist in a raid. aoe can and will kill you when it won't kill anyone else.

    Fixing your rotation:


    out of combat buffs (standard archon and pyro armor and burning int if using the 10 pyro spec)

    Cast instant debuffs crumbling def/ashen/lingering dust
    Spam Macro below
    cast Surging Flare
    cast Earthen Barrage
    cast Volcanic Bomb
    cast Leeching Flames
    cast Pillaging Stone

    Cast rock slide You need enough charge to channel it for a full 6s. This might be while you didnt get 6.

    Why are you casting FB ever as an archon?
    Last edited by sarianne; 06-11-2011 at 07:08 PM.

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