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Thread: Necrolock versus SC/Ele?

  1. #1
    Rift Master
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    Default Necrolock versus SC/Ele?

    PTS :
    Single target on the Boss Dummy in Sanctum, ACT was used. No outside buffs.

    SC/Ele:
    1100 base Spellpower (Breaking 1.4k with procs and pet buff)
    822 Spell crit

    DPS.
    Damage done.

    Necrolock:
    1100 base Spellpower (Also breaking approximately 1.4k with procs, minus the pet buff)
    822 Spell crit

    DPS.
    Damage done.

    I will flat-out say that I absolutely do not have three Relic Weapons on Live and that the Raid Gear obtained on the PTS does beat out my gearset on Live.
    I will also say that I do not enjoy playing Stormcaller at all, so if someone sees something wrong with the Damage Done compared to DPS in the parses, point it out so I can re-test with a fixed rotation or whatever.

    Basically I just want to point out that, single target, even with Discharge's damage all going back to the Stormcaller, this is approximately what I'm seeing in our raids on Live. I beat out SCs as Necrolock if it is a single target boss. SC/Ele is most definitely not the only viable DPS spec Mages have on the PTS or on Live.


    Pyro/Ele is also very, very high up in there. Mind you, it is not nearly as mobile, but it's definitely the burst spec of choice.

    Pyro/Ele:
    1120 Base Spellpower (Breaking 1.5k with procs)
    862 Spell crit
    DPS.
    Damage.

    Broaden your horizons guys. This game is still extremely young and is far from being dissected. The SC/Ele fad crap is getting extremely, extremely old.

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    I agree with you completely....I don't like pyro it's overplayed...All though I do like SC/ELE, I ran CCe with this dude who had 51 nec and when he popped out his minions and I hit static discharge, it was chaos dps. When you say a necro/lock are you saying full nec or half and half? Mind posting your build, I've been wanting one for awhile now, to also use in pvp and I believe nec/lock would own.

  3. #3
    RIFT Guide Writer DaddyDaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arianna View Post
    PTS :
    Single target on the Boss Dummy in Sanctum, ACT was used. No outside buffs.

    SC/Ele:
    1100 base Spellpower (Breaking 1.4k with procs and pet buff)
    822 Spell crit

    I will flat-out say that I absolutely do not have three Relic Weapons on Live and that the Raid Gear obtained on the PTS does beat out my gearset on Live.
    I will also say that I do not enjoy playing Stormcaller at all, so if someone sees something wrong with the Damage Done compared to DPS in the parses, point it out so I can re-test with a fixed rotation or whatever.
    tryin to go over your sc/ele dps. it looks like you didn't use lightning strike at all. use lightning strike whenever it's off cooldown, as it's amazing damage especially in 1.2 as it's fixed. also, the max static discharge crits are doing less then they should, and not sure why (3 stacks elect, ice shear, all cooldowns, static flux prior to popping SD). your use of raging storms is really low as well. i think you're refreshing your elect with thunderbolt, but swap out refreshes with thunderbolt and raging storms. make sure you refresh ice shear while ice shear is still up also (just near the end). lightning field filler is correct though.
    i test in alphas with 985 sp, and 751 crit unbuffed, and i do on average 961 dps by just adding in pill stone x5(archon) at the start, and with the pet sp buff. i don't use anything that can proc in my testing. so like i don't use the main/off hand combo (i use the staff), and i use the glob for the trinket, and i don't use any greater essence at all. doing that cuts down on my RNG influence. also when i test, i do 5 min parses. it gives a nice idea of build vs build.
    Experience is the best teacher.. if you can afford the tuition.

  4. #4
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    Take two on SC/Ele?
    DPS.
    Damage.

    Closer?

  5. #5
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    Whats your spec and rotation for that Necrolock parse?

    The only reason I don't use it all that much is because I haven't personally been able to parse it as high as SC/Ele (I actually prefer SC/Lock myself, but same difference). It's not so much of buying into the SC fad, it's just not being able to get equivalent numbers.

    Could be an issue of spec and rotation, though.

    Have you tried a SC/Lock parse? Curious to see how it compares.

    GSB: 5/5, RoS: 4/4, HK: 10/11
    GP: 4/4, DH: 4/4

  6. #6
    RIFT Guide Writer DaddyDaz's Avatar
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    yeah, looks better. SD crits are still low though as i do 800+ crits with 989 sp unbuffed. may have something to do with your build though. standard 32sc/34ele/0archon? cast pillaging stone 5 times, and make sure tempest is up during the SD burns. archon or bard damage buffs would be up instead of tempest in a raid setting, but i include it in the single target dps tests being that tempest is part of the build.

    also, looked like a Lightning Strike missed for some reason. that's (3096/366=) 8.459 dps missing there, so just toss that on top of what you had, and it should give a ruff idea of what you would get i think. i don't test with that much crit or spell power though, so i'm not 100% sure.

    i tried to test without procs, and with the same stats i have on the live servers. it's actually 5% more crit then what i run, but the same spell power to give me an idea of how my gear and scaling with each build works. i would think with how well sc/ele scaled with my gear pre T2/raid, that the increase of what you test with and what i test with would make a nice difference though. i double checked my testing gear, and i wasn't running "985" sp, it was actually 989sp, 751 crit, and dps over 5 minutes was 961 on average between 10 tests. each person plays each class different though, so idk.
    Experience is the best teacher.. if you can afford the tuition.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple Ghazghkul's Avatar
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    I don't think Lightning Strike is worth it until after the patch because of the bug fix, but to each his own. Will be using it after 1.2 however. Tempest bug being fixed too, yay. SD nerf will make SC's closer to necrolock and pyro/ele for the sake of balance and I am glad personally. I like that people don't "have" to be sc/ele to excell in raids. Still going to be sc/ele just because I played a sc ever since beta.

  8. #8
    Plane Touched TheRealCheesy's Avatar
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    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that SC/Ele will still be the best of the 3 after 1.2. Seeing as SC/Ele scales very well with buffs, while necro/lock not so much, and no clue about Pyro/Ele. Other than the fact that if you have to move as a pyro, you lose about 100% of your DPS.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealCheesy View Post
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that SC/Ele will still be the best of the 3 after 1.2. Seeing as SC/Ele scales very well with buffs, while necro/lock not so much, and no clue about Pyro/Ele. Other than the fact that if you have to move as a pyro, you lose about 100% of your DPS.
    Do we have a list of spellpower coefficients? As far as I'm aware, SC/Ele scales best with multiple people in a party (At least, on live it does), but that's about as far as their scaling goes. I don't see any reason that Stormcaller should/will scale better than any other particular spec. I've actually noticed that Cinder Burst scales EXTREMELY well, making Pyromancer's Armor a very worthwhile proc. A few of the Pyromancer abilities are also based off of crit, meaning the higher Crit chance we get, the more often we see those procs (Combust does a HELL of a lot of damage if it has multiple stacks on the test shard. If you can get a rolling 3-stack of that... *Whistles*) So if anything, Pyromancer will start seeing increased numbers with more and more gear.

  10. #10
    RIFT Guide Writer DaddyDaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arianna View Post
    So if anything, Pyromancer will start seeing increased numbers with more and more gear.
    i really really hope so. i love the play style and overall feel of pyro. i would love to be able to raid in that spec competitively with other mage classes. i don't mind sc/ele all that much, but to have some choices would be nice.
    Experience is the best teacher.. if you can afford the tuition.

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple
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    Bluedot has a partial list of spell coefficients here if you scroll down a bit. Void bolt is pretty close to the core sc/ele spells, bit higher than LF and bit lower than LS, so sp is probably about a wash on a mob without debuffs. Crit % chance buffs will be more effective on SC/Ele than Necrolock though. All the debuffs that increase SC spell damage make spellpower more effective for them than for necrolock too.

  12. #12
    Prophet of Telara Artorous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arianna View Post
    PTS :
    Single target on the Boss Dummy in Sanctum, ACT was used. No outside buffs.

    SC/Ele:
    1100 base Spellpower (Breaking 1.4k with procs and pet buff)
    822 Spell crit

    DPS.
    Damage done.

    Necrolock:
    1100 base Spellpower (Also breaking approximately 1.4k with procs, minus the pet buff)
    822 Spell crit

    DPS.
    Damage done.

    I will flat-out say that I absolutely do not have three Relic Weapons on Live and that the Raid Gear obtained on the PTS does beat out my gearset on Live.
    I will also say that I do not enjoy playing Stormcaller at all, so if someone sees something wrong with the Damage Done compared to DPS in the parses, point it out so I can re-test with a fixed rotation or whatever.

    Basically I just want to point out that, single target, even with Discharge's damage all going back to the Stormcaller, this is approximately what I'm seeing in our raids on Live. I beat out SCs as Necrolock if it is a single target boss. SC/Ele is most definitely not the only viable DPS spec Mages have on the PTS or on Live.


    Pyro/Ele is also very, very high up in there. Mind you, it is not nearly as mobile, but it's definitely the burst spec of choice.

    Pyro/Ele:
    1120 Base Spellpower (Breaking 1.5k with procs)
    862 Spell crit
    DPS.
    Damage.

    Broaden your horizons guys. This game is still extremely young and is far from being dissected. The SC/Ele fad crap is getting extremely, extremely old.
    I would also like to add that I believe Ignite is a DPS loss. The damage done is next to nothing the FB you could be casting in its place would hit for more than Ignite would deal overall. I'm dling the PTR now to make a few tests myself.

  13. #13
    Plane Touched TheRealCheesy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arianna View Post
    Do we have a list of spellpower coefficients? As far as I'm aware, SC/Ele scales best with multiple people in a party (At least, on live it does), but that's about as far as their scaling goes. I don't see any reason that Stormcaller should/will scale better than any other particular spec. I've actually noticed that Cinder Burst scales EXTREMELY well, making Pyromancer's Armor a very worthwhile proc. A few of the Pyromancer abilities are also based off of crit, meaning the higher Crit chance we get, the more often we see those procs (Combust does a HELL of a lot of damage if it has multiple stacks on the test shard. If you can get a rolling 3-stack of that... *Whistles*) So if anything, Pyromancer will start seeing increased numbers with more and more gear.
    They are also fixing Tempest being buggy on Lightning Field, which is a decent DPS increase if I were to guess. Today LF crit for 1.6k, then non crit for 1.4k with no changes in buffs.

    Also like I said in the post you quoted, Pyros lose A LOT of DPS in fights with ANY movement. SC only has to stand still to cast for 1.5s every 13-14 seconds.

    Now Necro/Lock is good on fights with movement, if you can keep the pet alive. Which since arguably the better necro/lock spec is 38/28, you don't use Soul Purge, so your pet doesn't get many heals. Even then SC still is better on mvoement fights. Only plus here is that little to no mana problems.

  14. #14
    Prophet of Telara Artorous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealCheesy View Post
    They are also fixing Tempest being buggy on Lightning Field, which is a decent DPS increase if I were to guess. Today LF crit for 1.6k, then non crit for 1.4k with no changes in buffs.

    Also like I said in the post you quoted, Pyros lose A LOT of DPS in fights with ANY movement. SC only has to stand still to cast for 1.5s every 13-14 seconds.

    Now Necro/Lock is good on fights with movement, if you can keep the pet alive. Which since arguably the better necro/lock spec is 38/28, you don't use Soul Purge, so your pet doesn't get many heals. Even then SC still is better on mvoement fights. Only plus here is that little to no mana problems.
    Don't forget you also have to stand still to cast LS. However, you are right. Pyro is the greatest build, in my eyes, for fights where you get to stand still and cast, or have to move very little. SC and Necro/Lock are great for heavy movement fights. Necro is great on fights like Infiltrator as they can still cast their dots while facing away during a Blinding Bomb phase.

  15. #15
    Prophet of Telara Artorous's Avatar
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    Last thing I wanted to add in about the Pyro/Ele. It still can't be test fully as Inferno can never be used. That's a nice bit of DPS loss right there.

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