+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 34

Thread: Do not let the the pyro argument turn into the misnomer that it's OP

  1. #1
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    77

    Default Do not let the the pyro argument turn into the misnomer that it's OP

    Those of us who play mages (especially pyros) know that prepatch and postpatch, the only definitive change we got was a slight increase in armor% from cloth. GoS was nerfed hard, and the supposedly damage increase for pyro is negligible at best (I personally didn't notice anything, and I compared prepatch and postpatch numbers).

    But despite all that, if you read the forums now in comparison to what they were approximately 1 month ago, you'd think that mages are running around now with new wtfppwnage abilities they didn't have before, or that their damage has gone up 50%, or that they're decimating entire "teams of people" by themselves.

    Obviously none of this is true, but these lies are becoming the standard argument being regurgitated by those who don't know, understand, or play the mage, yet they are utterly desperate to make it sound OP.

    The actual issue that needs to be pressed harder than ever is that these blubbering warriors and rogues do not believe that the mage is OP or that mages are "impossible to kill", but rather that they believe they deserve a by-default victory against you, regardless of how well you play or how poorly they play, simply because you're a mage.

    If we let the argument continue to be dominated by the incorrect notion that pyros are OP, then TRION will respond and nerf the pyro into oblivion and we'll all be pigeonholed into warlocks/necros.

    All this screaming and crying by these idiots is simply because they think they deserve to kill you because of what class you picked, and nothing more. But if we let it continue, or ignore it, they'll get their wish.
    There are no bad/broken classes, just bad/broken players.

  2. #2
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    2,282

    Default

    The reason that Pyros are such a big deal now is because prior to 1.1 champs and sabs could keep them in check. Both of them have been nerfed so now the Pyro is free to run rampant, despite there being no specific change to that soul to make it more powerful.

    Not to mention the crowd of fotm rerollers that immediately abandoned their champs and sabs to roll pyro once 1.1 hit.

  3. #3
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,713

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vember View Post
    The reason that Pyros are such a big deal now is because prior to 1.1 champs and sabs could keep them in check. Both of them have been nerfed so now the Pyro is free to run rampant, despite there being no specific change to that soul to make it more powerful.

    Not to mention the crowd of fotm rerollers that immediately abandoned their champs and sabs to roll pyro once 1.1 hit.
    Champs and sabos were never supposed to automatically win against mages. The counter to Mages were supposed to be Voidknights and Riftstalkers.

  4. #4
    Plane Walker Dhamp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    463

    Default

    Misnomer. You keep using this word. I do not think you know what it means.

  5. #5
    Rift Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    647

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vember View Post
    The reason that Pyros are such a big deal now is because prior to 1.1 champs and sabs could keep them in check. Both of them have been nerfed so now the Pyro is free to run rampant, despite there being no specific change to that soul to make it more powerful.

    Not to mention the crowd of fotm rerollers that immediately abandoned their champs and sabs to roll pyro once 1.1 hit.
    I've got a pyro spec, and even I feel it is OP'd. I don't really think the damage needs a nerf, but ..cmon. ONE talent point is better than like 20 points spent in other trees. 30% damage resist would be awesome. The stun is pretty darn good. The immunity to all CC, silences, stuns...blah blah. ....wuuuuh? Maybe 25% resistance but...immunity? No class has anything like that. Any other similar ability in any other tree has at least a 2-3 minute cooldown, and you'd have to add 3-4 of them up to equal GoS. You'd have to have one ability that was Neddra's Essence, Shadow Life and Split Personality...and it still wouldn't be as good as GoS.

    I also don't like a mage standing at the front lines absorbing damage like a tank. The pyro should be a fast paced, on the move class.

    So...I see it should go down 2 ways. Make it a buff, give it 15% damage resistance, 25% immunity to CC, 15% chance to stun. That way the class can be mobile. Or keep it like it is, and give it like a 30-60 second cooldown.

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    178

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vember View Post
    The reason that Pyros are such a big deal now is because prior to 1.1 champs and sabs could keep them in check. Both of them have been nerfed so now the Pyro is free to run rampant, despite there being no specific change to that soul to make it more powerful.

    Not to mention the crowd of fotm rerollers that immediately abandoned their champs and sabs to roll pyro once 1.1 hit.
    I'm still amazed at how many people there are that don't understand that the pyro's weakness is GETTING HIT.... seriously, it's laughable.

    Here are the simple steps to killing a pyro:

    1) rush mage
    2) fight mage (auto attack even works!)
    3) ???
    4) profit!

    EVERY SINGLE build can kill me in PvP if they rush me and I don't get lucky on crits or insta casts.

  7. #7
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,713

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Saboth View Post
    I've got a pyro spec, and even I feel it is OP'd. I don't really think the damage needs a nerf, but ..cmon. ONE talent point is better than like 20 points spent in other trees. 30% damage resist would be awesome. The stun is pretty darn good. The immunity to all CC, silences, stuns...blah blah. ....wuuuuh? Maybe 25% resistance but...immunity? No class has anything like that. Any other similar ability in any other tree has at least a 2-3 minute cooldown, and you'd have to add 3-4 of them up to equal GoS. You'd have to have one ability that was Neddra's Essence, Shadow Life and Split Personality...and it still wouldn't be as good as GoS.

    I also don't like a mage standing at the front lines absorbing damage like a tank. The pyro should be a fast paced, on the move class.

    So...I see it should go down 2 ways. Make it a buff, give it 15% damage resistance, 25% immunity to CC, 15% chance to stun. That way the class can be mobile. Or keep it like it is, and give it like a 30-60 second cooldown.
    I disagree. You sacrifice life to be a pyro, having only 15% damage resistance, I would rather just remove the health penalty on my pyro. 25% immunity to CC? I rather spend the extra points on archmage in that case. No need to waste further points in a 44 point ability to get GOS.

    Think about it. How about we gimp the 44 pt warlock ability and see how that works? Lets cut the range of mass fear to 5 meters and make it only affect 3 people. and last only 5 secs.
    Last edited by MoonDragn; 04-06-2011 at 06:27 AM.

  8. #8
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,116

    Default

    the damage changes were substantial, because of our % modifiers.

    fulminate went from around 500 base damage to 700.

    with the 75% damage modifiers you get as a pyro, and a crit, thats ~500 extra damage on a fulminate crit, not counting the archmage 20% extra critical damage, or the 50% from dominator if you went that way.

  9. #9
    Champion Fyrestorme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    518

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Again View Post
    *stopped reading*
    Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
    I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference.

  10. #10
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,713

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Caldern View Post
    the damage changes were substantial, because of our % modifiers.

    fulminate went from around 500 base damage to 700.

    with the 75% damage modifiers you get as a pyro, and a crit, thats ~500 extra damage on a fulminate crit, not counting the archmage 20% extra critical damage, or the 50% from dominator if you went that way.
    That sounds like a calculation bug more than anything. Because a pure Pyro without any of the extra off soul % modifiers are not seeing that kind of damage increase. Dunno where you are getting 75% damage modifiers. Flamebolt gives you 10%, and Ground of power gives you 15% if you use it, that is still only 25%
    Last edited by MoonDragn; 04-06-2011 at 06:40 AM.

  11. #11
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    2,282

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxteth View Post
    I'm still amazed at how many people there are that don't understand that the pyro's weakness is GETTING HIT.... seriously, it's laughable.

    Here are the simple steps to killing a pyro:

    1) rush mage
    2) fight mage (auto attack even works!)
    3) ???
    4) profit!

    EVERY SINGLE build can kill me in PvP if they rush me and I don't get lucky on crits or insta casts.
    That's irrelevant, and you misunderstand what I'm saying. Prior to 1.1, we had three extremely powerful classes - Champs, Sabs, and Pyros, not to mention a substantially smaller level 50 population. Pyro's dont' really come into their own until level 44 and again at 50...Champs and Sabs were blatantly overpowered at all levels. The population of fotm players was spread mostly between Champs and Sabs, but at 44 and at 50 people were finding the power of the Pyro, however, again, it wasn't so heavily populated at the time due to less higher levels and more champs/sabs.

    Now comes 1.1....sabs take a heavy nerf, Champs lose their armor penetration bug, more people are 50, less people are playing those two classes, more people are playing pyros. Sabs and Champs no longer appeal to the fotm crowd, and despite what anyone says, the vast majority of pvpers are fotm types, which is why we were saturated with champs and sabs before and are saturated with pyros now.

  12. #12
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,713

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vember View Post
    That's irrelevant, and you misunderstand what I'm saying. Prior to 1.1, we had three extremely powerful classes - Champs, Sabs, and Pyros, not to mention a substantially smaller level 50 population. Pyro's dont' really come into their own until level 44 and again at 50...Champs and Sabs were blatantly overpowered at all levels. The population of fotm players was spread mostly between Champs and Sabs, but at 44 and at 50 people were finding the power of the Pyro, however, again, it wasn't so heavily populated at the time due to less higher levels and more champs/sabs.

    Now comes 1.1....sabs take a heavy nerf, Champs lose their armor penetration bug, more people are 50, less people are playing those two classes, more people are playing pyros. Sabs and Champs no longer appeal to the fotm crowd, and despite what anyone says, the vast majority of pvpers are fotm types, which is why we were saturated with champs and sabs before and are saturated with pyros now.
    The problem is Pyros are not really a FOTM Soul. What some people were seeing with Pyros resulted from the exploit of the Weapon stacking boosting SP by ridiculous numbers. That resulted in some pyros being able to one shot people. Spell power needs to be looked at on higher levels and how it stacks with the Warfront buff. Normal average Pyros are not FOTM.

  13. #13
    Rift Disciple Obyran's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    149

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxteth View Post

    1) rush mage
    2) fight mage (auto attack even works!)
    3) ???
    4) profit!
    +1 lol
    Great underpants gnomes reference. So applicable to so many posts on these forums!
    Long live South Park!
    Obryn- 50 Cleric: Druid, Warden, Justicar
    Devilweed- 50 Mage: Chloromancer, Warlock, Elementalist
    Obyran- 50 Rouge: "Bard"
    Defiant of Briarcliff <Damaged PvPness>


  14. #14
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    48

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Saboth View Post
    I've got a pyro spec, and even I feel it is OP'd. I don't really think the damage needs a nerf, but ..cmon. ONE talent point is better than like 20 points spent in other trees. 30% damage resist would be awesome. The stun is pretty darn good. The immunity to all CC, silences, stuns...blah blah. ....wuuuuh? Maybe 25% resistance but...immunity? No class has anything like that. Any other similar ability in any other tree has at least a 2-3 minute cooldown, and you'd have to add 3-4 of them up to equal GoS. You'd have to have one ability that was Neddra's Essence, Shadow Life and Split Personality...and it still wouldn't be as good as GoS.

    I also don't like a mage standing at the front lines absorbing damage like a tank. The pyro should be a fast paced, on the move class.

    So...I see it should go down 2 ways. Make it a buff, give it 15% damage resistance, 25% immunity to CC, 15% chance to stun. That way the class can be mobile. Or keep it like it is, and give it like a 30-60 second cooldown.
    Warning: this is NOT a mage and certainly not a Pyro... (if you wish explanation check the Pyro Soul)
    Try to compare to other skills that match the requirements of GoS.

    It's correct that near no other class has total immunity, and no one has it the length that pyros does. However who does have an 8 secs and 2,5 secs cast-time on their primary spells? And kinda have to spec to reduce this flaw?
    Who has a soul-booster that makes such a huge penalty against themselves ? (-9% max hp is quite a load)

    Sorry to go off-topic:
    But I strongly disagree that Pyros should only be a mobile class. If you think about the pyromancer theme. It's high burst damage and makes things go up in flames (actually at first I thought Pyro was AoE-master). A stationary channeling mage is what pops into my head when I think about a high burst damage dealer mage that uses fire. Actually I thought there would be way more cast-times instead of 9/10 being instants.
    But the other way around I think there's WAY too many instants in this game and too uncontrolled use of CC - some silences have a duration of 8 secs where you're useless as a mage/cleric without more breakers. Most rogue and warrior souls will get ****ed by silenced too cuz abilities are the only true way to be important. I support the active approach instead of right-click and wait but honestly I think the 90% spec on skills is a bit too much.
    I'm actually kinda disappointed how easy kiting tactics are implemented to be the best viable tactic with all the instants around. To compensate warriors have gotten gap-closers that can be spec'ed to root or otherwise ranged skills to keep close and most on a low CD.

    Rogues are a kinda weird calling IMO as they also introduce Bard, a buffer. That seems for me to go all over to the clerics.
    Clerics IMO are way different than expected. Most of them aren't the standard priest who focuses in support-buffs and direct healing. Most are HoT (healing over time) and aura-buffs.
    Warriors to me have always been the "cranky" class who doesn't do **** damage but instead are annoying with all their utility CC.
    Mages are the only who are pretty much as expected, the only thing that went off was the high attention to support-class. Archons, Chloro, Domi. I would expect them all but mostly in a single soul as a hybrid.

    I like how they break some of old times patterns and tries out new stuff and gives the player opportunity to build as they like but some things just seems off.
    Example: mage, SC having resurrection, gives zero sense IMO. Chloro gives sense to an extend as they remind me of WoW's Druid who deals in nature and healing-stuff.
    Warrior paladin gives sense as he's the protective and just avenger. However he have few heals and seems as a pure PvE soul with all the threat-generation and limited CC. To me that seems off for a paladin soul (one of the few defensive warrior souls - would have expected 5/8 to be defensive)

    If we count the theme of the different souls (not accounting PvP souls):
    Offensive: 4 + 6 + 5 + 4 = 19 souls out of 32 --> 19/32 > 1/2
    Defensive: 4 + 1 + 0 + 1 = 6 / 32 < 1/5
    Support: 0 + 1 + 2 + 0 = 3 / 32 < 1/10
    Healing: 0 + 0 + 1 + 3 = 4 / 32 = 1/8

    Offensive souls counts for more than half of the possible souls. Now you may argue that some of these souls are not really what they are tagged to be.
    Best example I personally can make as mage (Elementalist being a real offensive soul - more a sort of utility soul)

    Some souls have been made purely for PvE'ing, others mostly for PvP. Some of the bad things comes that most balance comes from PvP - aka PvE'ing aren't at the top of the list to cause balance adjustments.


    TL;DR: Souls and callings are not as expected, slightly too high focus on abilities, soul diversity aren't that well done. Souls made purely for PvE is fail as some aspect of it could've been nice in PvP but it just aren't viable.

  15. #15
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    48

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonDragn View Post
    That sounds like a calculation bug more than anything. Because a pure Pyro without any of the extra off soul % modifiers are not seeing that kind of damage increase. Dunno where you are getting 75% damage modifiers. Flamebolt gives you 10%, and Ground of power gives you 15% if you use it, that is still only 25%
    It's not 75% but it's up that alley.

    10% from Improved Flame Bolt + 15% from GoP + 30,6 % ~ 30% from Burning Bright (51 pt) + 5% firearmor = 60 % increased damage. But that is the cost of 9% max hp and 51 pts used in Pyro, using a ground-skill, having Flame Bolt trigger up and a crappy armor-buff.

    You sacrifice some 500 hp, mobility (and GoS) and Pyromancer's Armor.

    To me the 500 hp given to grant 30% increased damage is a fair trade (altho less effect and no penalty would be better). The mobility is not really an issue with me as I already see Pyros as stationary channelers kicking ***** (altho there's not many cast-time skills in Pyro soul to not mention the entire game) but the loss of GoS's CC immunity might screw me up to get 0% use of those 15% increased dmg. But the worst is the loss of getting "free" procs of Cinder Burst (primary burst skill).

    So yes you can get pretty great dmg modifiers - however I find it much better to use alternatives that have to overwrite the dmg modifiers.
    Last edited by Tzefick; 04-06-2011 at 07:46 AM.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts