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Thread: Pyro in PVE?

  1. #1
    Ascendant
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    Default Pyro in PVE?

    i would assume that especially with the upcoming heatwave changes, pyros are probably best off pyro/ele for pve dps situations(double intensify elements every 2 minutes?!)

    but i dont really enjoy pet classes, so a couple questions then:
    -if i go pyro/warlock, does neddra's influence effect the combust DoT effect, or should i just get some more hp as filler instead to reach the top?
    -for the third tree, im leaning archon, (especially if i take neddra's influence) for the 5% fire damage and the fire damage dot that gets to doubledip on just about every damage bonus in either tree(plus you cant really go wrong with 40 extra int and wisdom for the cost of one cast per 5 minutes from stone). would there be any noticeable difference between 5% fire damage and 5% crit(elementalist) or is that just preference of the user and if i want to use the abilities in the tree?
    -are there any special situations that might show up in experts that would dictate how i spend the one filler point in pyro, currently in flicker: I.E.: burning bonds to handle a bad melee add, or flicker, or reduced pushback on fireball?
    -is it worth using dark touch in a rotation at all? its damage per cast is pretty good but many of the damage modifiers work only on fire.

    would look something like this:
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0z...hxo.V.xxou0VVx
    keep in mind improved smoldering power and improved grounding are switching places next patch, so those three points are in improved grounding.

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0z...xo.V0c.xxou0VV
    Kinda new the the forums but i play pyro pve. I usually just use this build while in groups or doing dungeons.

    It may seem kinda weird but ill explain why im using "that".
    I took those 5 points out of Improved Warlock Armor because i use Pyromancer Armor for the instant Cinderbust. It procs quite often so i use Interalize Charge(for the 20% damage increase) pop CB, then turn off IC. You will notice the damage increase.
    I use 1 point in Improved Smoldering Power just for the combat use ability. But the increase in mana reduction isnt needed if you're going warlock because of the life tap.
    3 points in Strength of Stone(archon) because I keep 5 stacks of Pillaging Stone up for the major stat boost.
    You can take some points out of Improved Ground of Power to move it around, I have 1 out for Back Draft because that stun is beautiful.
    I hope this helps, if not 100% atleast a general idea of what to do.

    Also this is what i do NOW, when the changes happen ill have to see
    Last edited by Sunah; 03-25-2011 at 11:00 AM.

  3. #3
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    yeah, im curious to see exactly how the changes pan out myself.

    any idea how pyro compares to other specs for damage overall? i dont run a parser but i probably should, id just like to know if im giving up way too much sticking with a spec i would enjoy playing vs necro/warlock.

  4. #4
    Telaran
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    Havn't done any actual testing on the alpha servers, but from experience, i'm pretty sure Pyro/Ele will still be the better option.

    I never liked pet classes myself, and have never played a pet class in any previous MMO (DAoC, WoW, WAR, Aion, etc.) but i don't mind it as much in this game.

    The pet basically just attacks whatever i throw my fireball at, so its not that annoying to control. I have two thumb buttons on my mouse bound to "petattack" and "petpassive" just in case i need to send him to a specific target, or recall him so he doesn't do something stupid.

    Just saying this because from many parses i did, while the Ele pet doesn't do THAT much damage, it IS still noticable. In the parses i did, the little air elemental bugger was easily pulling 70-90DPS, and could spike up to 130-140 during Intensify Elements. Not to mention he provides the group a measily little +50 spellpower buff or something, beats nothing i guess!

    An average of 100DPS from a pet that just auto attacks from range isn't that bad, considering you yourself are probably only doing 500-600 DPS. If you add it together, thats 700 DPS - Almost comparable to a Necrolock!
    Last edited by KooperT; 03-25-2011 at 12:19 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by KooperT View Post
    Havn't done any actual testing on the alpha servers, but from experience, i'm pretty sure Pyro/Ele will still be the better option.

    I never liked pet classes myself, and have never played a pet class in any previous MMO (DAoC, WoW, WAR, Aion, etc.) but i don't mind it as much in this game.

    The pet basically just attacks whatever i throw my fireball at, so its not that annoying to control. I have two thumb buttons on my mouse bound to "petattack" and "petpassive" just in case i need to send him to a specific target, or recall him so he doesn't do something stupid.

    Just saying this because from many parses i did, while the Ele pet doesn't do THAT much damage, it IS still noticable. In the parses i did, the little air elemental bugger was easily pulling 70-90DPS, and could spike up to 130-140 during Intensify Elements. Not to mention he provides the group a measily little +50 spellpower buff or something, beats nothing i guess!

    An average of 100DPS from a pet that just auto attacks from range isn't that bad, considering you yourself are probably only doing 500-600 DPS. If you add it together, thats 700 DPS - Almost comparable to a Necrolock!
    heres the thing though, if the pet is only doing about 80-100 extra dps...and you do 500-600...and warlock adds +20% damage(and dot damage if specced that way, on top of 5% from archon), math tells me the specs are pretty close to the same. obviously lock might be a tad lower because of intensify elements and the crit damage from elementalist, but 20% of my damage doesnt die from time to time.

  6. #6
    Telaran
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    I guess, but would need some more thorough long-term testing.

    Keep in mind that also going Pyro/Lock means you pretty much have to use Warlock armor for the extra 10% dmg.

    That means you lose out on Pyromancer's Armor, which might not even be that great on paper - but again, would have to test it in a long fight. You pretty much never get to use Cinderblast unless its an instant proc off Pyro Armor.

    And while you could say you can cast your Cinderblasts when Opportunity procs, in practice and reality, if you are mashing Fireball your opportunity will not proc until it finishes casting, in which you will have already fired off an instant cast Fireball. If you are pausing between fireball casts to look for Opportunity procs to use Cinderblast, you are obviously wasting DPS time.

    Also, remember that while the Ele bonus is only 30% crit damage on paper, this is a decent chunk of overall damage.

    Normal crits are 1.5x damage.

    In my current gear, as Ele, i have about 30% crit unbuffed (35% with bard).
    30% chance to deal 50% extra damage is roughly an overall 17% damage increase.
    30% chance to deal 80% extra damage (50% + 30% Ele bonus) is roughly an overall 24% damage increase.

    So on paper its:
    Warlock: 20% Spelldmg, Opportunity procs to turn 2.0s Fireballs into 1.5s GCD Instant Fireballs (25% increase on Fireball DPS, 10% of the time, = 2.5% total DPS increase) = Roughly 22.5% DPS increase.

    Ele: 7% damage increase through crits, with 30% unbuffed crit (Slightly more with Bard, or better gear) Pet that does 80-100DPS. Intensify Elements, which can be refreshed by Heatweave, thus allowing you 40 seconds of 50% dmg increase - not bad for short 2-3 minute fights.

    So i'd basically say its between about 15% Total Damage from Warlock VS Pet Damage + Intensify Elements. And like i said above, i do about 600DPS (NOT including my pet). My pet deals an additional 70-100DPS, which is roughly 15% of my total, upping my combined DPS to around 700. Add on Intensify Elements... You do the math :d

    Like you said, in the end, they are probably quite close in DPS, probably +-10% difference. Personally i find the air ele pet rarely dies (Unlike the melee Necro pet) simply because he's ranged, and its usually melee-unfriendly fights that seem to be abundant. And in the case he does die, you can easily instant-recast summon him.
    Last edited by KooperT; 03-25-2011 at 12:48 PM.

  7. #7
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    The biggest difference is direct dmg vs damage over time.

    When you are fighting a normal mob, you won't see a problem because the mob doesn't hit hard enough to matter.

    But when you fight an elite, it hits pretty hard and will kill you because your direct damage outpaced your pet.

    This is why necrolock solos better against elites than pyro/ele.

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    Above poster.... Off topic? Confused?
    Do you even know what this thread is about? O.o

    Pretty sure if we're theorycrafting DPS specs of Pyro at 600-700DPS+ levels, we aren't talking about leveling...

    I mean, who the heck levels as Pyro anyway?

    But on a sidenote, yes, Necrolocks obviously solo better than Pyro/Ele... but we're not discussing leveling-up or solo builds :/

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by KooperT View Post
    I guess, but would need some more thorough long-term testing.

    Keep in mind that also going Pyro/Lock means you pretty much have to use Warlock armor for the extra 10% dmg.

    That means you lose out on Pyromancer's Armor, which might not even be that great on paper - but again, would have to test it in a long fight. You pretty much never get to use Cinderblast unless its an instant proc off Pyro Armor.

    And while you could say you can cast your Cinderblasts when Opportunity procs, in practice and reality, if you are mashing Fireball your opportunity will not proc until it finishes casting, in which you will have already fired off an instant cast Fireball. If you are pausing between fireball casts to look for Opportunity procs to use Cinderblast, you are obviously wasting DPS time.

    Also, remember that while the Ele bonus is only 30% crit damage on paper, this is a decent chunk of overall damage.

    Normal crits are 1.5x damage.

    In my current gear, as Ele, i have about 30% crit unbuffed (35% with bard).
    30% chance to deal 50% extra damage is roughly an overall 17% damage increase.
    30% chance to deal 80% extra damage (50% + 30% Ele bonus) is roughly an overall 24% damage increase.

    So on paper its:
    Warlock: 20% Spelldmg, Opportunity procs to turn 2.0s Fireballs into 1.5s GCD Instant Fireballs (25% increase on Fireball DPS, 10% of the time, = 2.5% total DPS increase) = Roughly 22.5% DPS increase.

    Ele: 7% damage increase through crits, with 30% unbuffed crit (Slightly more with Bard, or better gear) Pet that does 80-100DPS. Intensify Elements, which can be refreshed by Heatweave, thus allowing you 40 seconds of 50% dmg increase - not bad for short 2-3 minute fights.

    So i'd basically say its between about 15% Total Damage from Warlock VS Pet Damage + Intensify Elements. And like i said above, i do about 600DPS (NOT including my pet). My pet deals an additional 70-100DPS, which is roughly 15% of my total, upping my combined DPS to around 700. Add on Intensify Elements... You do the math :d

    Like you said, in the end, they are probably quite close in DPS, probably +-10% difference. Personally i find the air ele pet rarely dies (Unlike the melee Necro pet) simply because he's ranged, and its usually melee-unfriendly fights that seem to be abundant. And in the case he does die, you can easily instant-recast summon him.

    Wow, I am so convinced by this post, I really wanna try Pyro/Ele now! Would you be kind enough to post a build for lvl 35/40/45/50?
    And as if thats not enough asked, could you add some spell rotation too? I never played Pyro nor Ele, so I am quite noobish.

    Thank you very much, really appreciated!

  10. #10
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by KooperT View Post

    I mean, who the heck levels as Pyro anyway?

    But on a sidenote, yes, Necrolocks obviously solo better than Pyro/Ele... but we're not discussing leveling-up or solo builds :/
    Oops, ok that answers my earlier post... sorry

    Necrolock just gets so freaking boring...

  11. #11
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonDragn View Post
    The biggest difference is direct dmg vs damage over time.

    When you are fighting a normal mob, you won't see a problem because the mob doesn't hit hard enough to matter.

    But when you fight an elite, it hits pretty hard and will kill you because your direct damage outpaced your pet.

    This is why necrolock solos better against elites than pyro/ele.
    the knight flat out holds aggro better. i can go all out with direct damage and knight will keep it. the ele pet is trash for holding aggro.

    neural prod spam will take aggro from earth ele.
    Last edited by zeroburrito; 03-25-2011 at 01:43 PM.

  12. #12
    Soulwalker
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    I played both Pyro/Archon and Necro/Lock, with my friend using a parser. He told me my dps was about the same. More damage AoE pulls with pyro of course. But if we are talking boss fights Pyro would pull just a BIT more. Kinda happy its like that so people can play the way they want and not the spec that "tops meters".

  13. #13
    Telaran
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    Again, we aren't talking Leveling or PvE farming.
    Obviously for leveling or farming mobs/rifts, it really doesn't matter what DPS you do.

    For pure DPS purposes (Instances and such) you obviously WONT be using the earth elemental, so who cares which one holds agro better?

    You'll be using the Air Elemental.

    If you are looking for a leveling build or solo farming rift/elite build, there are plenty of other builds/forum posts to look for (Ex. Necro/Chloro, Ele/Chloro, Lock/Chloro)

    For endgame DPS purposes, there have been plenty of parsing already (although obviously next patch things will change a bit.)
    Necrolock has already been proven to be our top single-target DPS spec, now that our bugged Archon DPS is fixed. Obviously this is only assuming fights where your pet WONT be slaughtered by AoE and cleaves.

    As for AoE pulls, Pyro looks nice on paper, but is FAR inferior to any spec or form of Stormcaller.
    On 4-target pulls, i can easily pull 1800-2000DPS as Stormcaller. Pyro, in any shape or form, cannot even come anywhere close to this. At the best with Pyro/Ele dropping both the ground AoE and the channeling AoE, i was doing 1100.

    I'm not sure what game you are playing, but there are generally several cookie cutter builds for each archetype.

    You can hardly "play what you want" - you aren't going to be very effective as something like Stormcaller/Pyromancer or Elementalist/Necro.

    Just like Warrior and Rogue archetypes - for PvE DPS, most are Champ/Para/Beast or Para/Beast or some variation, or Riftblade for ranged. You wont see silly combinations of Riftblade Beastmasters because... they just aren't good.

    You need to see your DPS on parsers to fully understand how well you are doing. Its one thing to play a Pyro and "feel like you are doing well" watching your fireballs fly and crit for 1200s consecutively - but once you see yourself in a parser, you may be surprised that you are doing like 400 dps.

    I personally was Pyro/Ele for the first 2 weeks after hitting 50, before parsers become readily available - i thought i was doing very well with my "massive" 1100 fireball crits and 1600 cinderblast crits. Then i got a parser, and realized i was really only doing 500 DPS while the undergeared Champions were running around doing 700-800. It helped me optimize various DPS specs, as i spent hours beating on target dummies with various specs.


    TLDR: Get a parser, or have a friend parser for you while on a dummy. While our massive giant 1200-1600 crits may seem like you are doing incredible DPS, its been proven many times that slow small-damage DoT classes such as Necrolock easily outdamage out fiery counterparts. And your pet does more DPS than you think (especially the necro rogue)

  14. #14
    Shadowlander
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    Hmmm Just tried this spec, im in pretty much all t1 and I was doing about 500dps. My pet was doing 35 dps? He was only level 45 as well.... I put 32 points in Summoner too, i thought they go up to level 50 like necro ones? Pet was pretty much useless, missing lots ect.

  15. #15
    Shield of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeroburrito View Post
    the knight flat out holds aggro better. i can go all out with direct damage and knight will keep it. the ele pet is trash for holding aggro.

    neural prod spam will take aggro from earth ele.
    Not true what most people dont realise is that the Earth pet needs you too cast 2 elemental spells on the target, so that he can hold aggro better.

    Necro's have to do the same thing with three spells but it is nice that they are instant cast and have longer durations, but the downside is that the necro pet can tank about as well as wet toilet paper.

    While I have had my elemental pet tank 2 group npc's.

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