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Thread: Suggestion for a rework of the Elementalist

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    Ascendant TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Default Suggestion for a rework of the Elementalist

    Those familiar with both shamans from WOW and Animists from DAoC will pick up what I'm thinking fairly quickly. Bear in mind this is just a suggestion, so try to avoid the temptation to flame me too much over it. (will get at least 2 flames for this sentence alone) It's not 100% thought out, and those that like the idea please feel free to add and embellish on it. If you don't like it, just don't bother reading my mental masturbation here as that's all this is.

    So, instead of the Necro vs Elementalist posts that this board is full of (mostly elementalists wanting their pets to be the same as the necro pets), I suggest a total rework for how elementalist works so that the playstyles become wildly different and brings something unique (for rift) to the table.

    First, ensure that elementalists are really elementalists. Give them the ability to use fire, earth, ice, and lightning/air damage and use them all well. The elementalist's nukes should benefit from dips into classes like stormcaller and pyromancer if the elementalist wishes to specialize in one element. Make sure the nukes are on cooldowns so that a rotation of multiple elemental spells is required for a fully specced elementalist, or can be worked into pyro/SC rotations. Provide SYNERGY! Rework the trees into a four pronged setup which lets a elementalist dip into one or two of the forks with moderate investment, and spec fully if investing 51 points. Allow each fork it's own pet, and each fork to have a talent allowing an increase in the number of pets summonable. The pets on their own individually should be somewhat weak and fragile, and make them all immobile (ala shaman totems/animist shrooms), but allow them all to compliment the mages spellcasting, and to buff each other when in numbers. Create a 51 point talen that summons one really nasty mobile pet, a hybrid/combo elemental of some sort that does significant DPS and debuffs their targets for elemental damage. Combined, a 51 point elementalist and all of it's pets shouldn't put out more DPS than any other DPS focused class, so tailor the numbers to fit.

    Fire pets would likely be ranged turrets with fire damage % increases. Ice pets would be range/aoe slow/snare pets, doing less dps than the fire pets but providing utility through slows. Make the slows slight but cumulative. (more ice pets, and more attacks over time stack the slow effects until they become snares. Be sure to add diminishing returns) Earth pets provide weak stunning attacks on enemies (maybe only 1 second stuns, or interrupts, kept on diminishing returns to avoid chain stunning), but primarily buff the defense and resistances of the elementalist and his other pets. The air pets could act as push back turrets, giving the mage a "wall" to hide behind. Make the push back affect only occur every 15-20 seconds, and ensure the pushback doesn't go farther than 5-8 meters so as not to be game breaking. Or, give the air pets AOE attacks based on lightning as well as casting/attack speed debuffs for targets affected. Make the debuff a stacking debuff similar to the ice pet. Be sure that a 51 point archon can't completely lock down a group of people with all of these debuffs to the point of ridiculousness. All together the debuffs shouldn't be any more debilitating than the ones provided by an archon.

    I may add more if I come up with anything more concrete.
    Red ball + fulminate + really craptacular dom/pyro spec trying to hard cast transmog and pray your spell lands before some squirrel punching moron eats your controlled opp proc = +1 board warrior keeping mages from being realistically balanced in PVE or PVP. 1.0-1.2's best combo in the game. RIP FOTM Pyro rollers

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    Rift Disciple
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    I'm glad you're thinking creatively about the problems with elementalists, but IMO this isn't what "the people want" from this class. IMO many are thinking back to EQ1 Magicians and want "kinda that, but better" IMO. So unique elemental pets for different circumstances, with nukes.

    But your synergy stuff I agree with 100%. That the elementalist air abilities don't really benefit from stormcaller stuff (like causing electrified, etc) is a severe "wtf" from me. Abilities should be limited in synergy via damage types, but NEVER via soul they're coming from.

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    Plane Touched Panduss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    mostly elementalists wanting their pets to be the same as the necro pets
    No, thanks.
    For my own masochistic reasons I actually prefer being the squishy elementalist, sending my walking hill to tank things for me.
    The necros get their survivability from self heals and FD. A necro does not die if he doesn't want to.
    The elementalists get theirs from their pet and only their pet.
    Having to heal said pet is perfectly acceptable but if I draw aggro by healing it, the soul fails to perform. There is no backup.

    Elementalists don't want necro pets. The skeletons are squishier, which is fine if you have FD...
    But with the "good" elemental spells being fire AE, the pet had better be compatible with that.
    It doesn't have to output huge damage but it has to allow the elementalist to nuke.
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    Ascendant TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    That's the thing, elementalists that are happy with their pets are fairly quiet. The vocal ones are constantly posting about how their pets don't match up to necro pets, regardless if that conception is true or not. I'm just posting about what I see on the boards.

    Glad to know that there is indeed a group of people happy with them the way they are.
    Red ball + fulminate + really craptacular dom/pyro spec trying to hard cast transmog and pray your spell lands before some squirrel punching moron eats your controlled opp proc = +1 board warrior keeping mages from being realistically balanced in PVE or PVP. 1.0-1.2's best combo in the game. RIP FOTM Pyro rollers

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    Plane Touched
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    The problem with pet classes is the limitations and expectations. Pets on MMOs are either too good (When you can write your own AI) or they let you EZMode and zone out pushing a few buttons and getting decent DPS (Think hunter from BC in WoW).

    I think the former is better for the community. Buff pets up a little more and let the user write the AI. Give the pets talents that are not superficial DPS increases and effect their talents and skills. Then let the user put it all together. Dunno it seems to make sense to me.

    Or make the pet 100% of their DPS and have the elemental mage simply be the outlet for what the pet needs to do. Move here to avoid AOE. Engage in melee. Interupt now. Seems novel and fun to me. Hasn't been done.

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    Ascendant TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimsonkirie View Post
    The problem with pet classes is the limitations and expectations. Pets on MMOs are either too good (When you can write your own AI) or they let you EZMode and zone out pushing a few buttons and getting decent DPS (Think hunter from BC in WoW).

    I think the former is better for the community. Buff pets up a little more and let the user write the AI. Give the pets talents that are not superficial DPS increases and effect their talents and skills. Then let the user put it all together. Dunno it seems to make sense to me.

    Or make the pet 100% of their DPS and have the elemental mage simply be the outlet for what the pet needs to do. Move here to avoid AOE. Engage in melee. Interupt now. Seems novel and fun to me. Hasn't been done.
    hehe...should just change it so that instead of summoning the pet, you 'transform' into the elemental and get a whole different skillset of abilities. Then we can crack power rangers jokes and such.
    Red ball + fulminate + really craptacular dom/pyro spec trying to hard cast transmog and pray your spell lands before some squirrel punching moron eats your controlled opp proc = +1 board warrior keeping mages from being realistically balanced in PVE or PVP. 1.0-1.2's best combo in the game. RIP FOTM Pyro rollers

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    Plane Touched xarael's Avatar
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    The greater forms of the elementals work rather well, especially the air elemental (Damn thing crits almost 2/3's to my highest crit regardless of level). It's just a PITA to actually manage the debuffs from missiles and ignite as they live on a 9 second span.

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    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eriol View Post
    I'm glad you're thinking creatively about the problems with elementalists, but IMO this isn't what "the people want" from this class. IMO many are thinking back to EQ1 Magicians and want "kinda that, but better" IMO. So unique elemental pets for different circumstances, with nukes.

    But your synergy stuff I agree with 100%. That the elementalist air abilities don't really benefit from stormcaller stuff (like causing electrified, etc) is a severe "wtf" from me. Abilities should be limited in synergy via damage types, but NEVER via soul they're coming from.
    i would like to see the elementalist reworked to be better, but i do know the skill lightning strike does synergize very well with the stormcaller, i'm critting enemies for about 1600/1700 with lightning strike(which would crit for 1200 without stormcaller) , while that isn't up to what a pyromancer can pull it is combined with the nice aoe damage stormcaller can do, my gripe, the air pet doesn't get the benefits from the stuff, it might be overpowered if it did though since it would be hitting for about 300 every 2 seconds where as right now it hits for 200 non-crit. the skill lightning strike also gets the boost from the passive charged, high voltage and biting cold putting its crit rate at 55% or so, 60% if a bard is nearby.

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    Champion of Telara Nightbringer's Avatar
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    A four pronged tree, each branch specializing in a specific element is something I would not mind. Give me the ability to use all elements effectively or chose to specialize by combining with another soul.

    As for immobile pets, I'll pass. There are two formats I enjoy for pets. The first is the EQ model, which is close to what we currently have. The second is the pet model used by City of Heroes, that would be an increasing number of smaller pets that accompany the caster.

    In City of Heroes, the Mastermind receives up to 6 controllable pets, typically using macros bound to the number pad. You start with a single "minion" level pet, gradually increasing to 3 minions, 2 lieutenants, and 1 boss. The pets deal nearly all of the Masterminds damage, with the mastermind predominately acting as support / control. The pets have a bodyguard mode, during which all damage inflicted to the mastermind is divided amongst the master mind and his pets (each pet received 1/7 of the damage, mastermind received 2/7, assuming all pets are up). Pets in bodyguard mode are the equivalent of follow / defensive, they will retaliate against attackers but will leave bodyguard mode if put on passive or directed to attack a specific target. None of the pets are particularly powerful individually.
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    Ascendant TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbringer View Post
    A four pronged tree, each branch specializing in a specific element is something I would not mind. Give me the ability to use all elements effectively or chose to specialize by combining with another soul.

    As for immobile pets, I'll pass. There are two formats I enjoy for pets. The first is the EQ model, which is close to what we currently have. The second is the pet model used by City of Heroes, that would be an increasing number of smaller pets that accompany the caster.

    In City of Heroes, the Mastermind receives up to 6 controllable pets, typically using macros bound to the number pad. You start with a single "minion" level pet, gradually increasing to 3 minions, 2 lieutenants, and 1 boss. The pets deal nearly all of the Masterminds damage, with the mastermind predominately acting as support / control. The pets have a bodyguard mode, during which all damage inflicted to the mastermind is divided amongst the master mind and his pets (each pet received 1/7 of the damage, mastermind received 2/7, assuming all pets are up). Pets in bodyguard mode are the equivalent of follow / defensive, they will retaliate against attackers but will leave bodyguard mode if put on passive or directed to attack a specific target. None of the pets are particularly powerful individually.
    Yeah I forgot all about CoH pets! That's a great idea too.

    My biggest gripe with pet classes is that I want more. They tease you with an undead legion in the necro tree, but it just doesn't deliver.
    Red ball + fulminate + really craptacular dom/pyro spec trying to hard cast transmog and pray your spell lands before some squirrel punching moron eats your controlled opp proc = +1 board warrior keeping mages from being realistically balanced in PVE or PVP. 1.0-1.2's best combo in the game. RIP FOTM Pyro rollers

  11. #11
    Soulwalker reganomics's Avatar
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    i posted an idea in the same vein, but no responses. let me know what you think. also i tend to think of my pet as a glorified DOT. a cool looking one, but a DOT nonetheless and it becomes useless if you cant keep your pet on your target and and your target off you.

  12. #12
    Soulwalker
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    cue EQ epic pet (pre-Luclin) muhuhuhuhahaaaaa

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    Plane Touched Panduss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadefoot View Post
    cue EQ epic pet (pre-Luclin) muhuhuhuhahaaaaa
    That's actually not such a terrible idea. The epic pet had a massive damage shield.
    Give the (earth) pet some sort of riposte / counterattack so it only does decent damage (and generates extra aggro) WHEN getting hit and tanking.

    This would go hand in hand with the elementalists AOE skills.

    Buffing it's active damage output would encroach too much on the necro pets and more cookie cutterness is the last thing Rift needs. =P
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  14. #14
    Soulwalker
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    Personally, I think Elementalist pets (and therefore Elementalist in general) could become quite a bit more useful in terms of DPS with even a few minor tweaks to talents (not that I think any of these changes would actually be implemented or, if they are, certainly not all of them but it's nice food for thought):

    Ashen Armor: I think that in addition to the critical hit chance boost it also should increase Ignite's DoT effect from lasting 10 seconds to lasting something like 12/14/15 seconds (from ranks 1-3 respectively). While this means that the damage Ignite's DoT does per tick would likely be reduced a little because it's being spread out for longer, it would also mean less 'required' casting of ignite to keep the 'pet buff effect' part of it going and it would even line up with Intensify Elements's duration.

    Exposure: It's a very nice spell but it's odd that as far as I can tell Archon's Crumbling Resistance does the exact same thing except Exposure lasts nowhere near as long and doesn't buff the mage. It would be nice if they boosted the duration or damage boost (perhaps to 10% again like in Beta but even 8% or 9% would be better than nothing) or just make it so Exposure boosts the pet's magic damage by a higher percentage.

    Elemental Forces: Let it affect the Elementalist's pet's spells too and there would be a noticeable boost to pet dps and/or let it boost the pet's attack/cast speed while its up (this is also especially useful since you gain the 3 charge per pet hit through Synergize even while Elemental Forces is up so it lets the skill last longer before needing to be recast).

    More 'Synergy': This would probably either be a new talent altogether (near the top of the tree) or a massive change to Synergize. Basically, take advantage of the fact that Elementalist doesn't focus on any specific element for its abilities. Every time the mage casts a spell of a certain element it gives a buff to the pet (4 different buffs total, it is possible for all 4 to be up simultaneously and I think it would be best to make the buffs each stack up to something like 3 times but disappear fast [15/30 seconds] if not refreshed to encourage Elementalists to use all of their elements). For example, Ignite and Flamestrike can give a 'fire' attack power buff, Crystalline Missile and Encase can give an 'earth' defense buff, Icy Carapace and Ice Shield can give a 'water' buff (mana up? general stat boost? not sure on this one), and Lightning Strike and Icy Gale can give a 'wind' attack/cast speed buff. Alternately, instead of applying specifically to Elementalist skills, any skill of the given element can grant the buff (ex: Archon's Pillage Stone would still grant the 'earth' buff because it's earth damage but Ice Shield wouldn't grant the water buff since it's a non-damage skill). Each buff even when fully stacked probably wouldn't make a massive difference and some would of course simply be more useful to some elementals than others (a defense boost is probably more useful for earth elementals than for wind elementals for example), but they would still make a substantial difference if they're all up together.


    Alternately, base pet damage can just simply be increased, but I think that since Elementalist is a class that thrives (or at least attempts to) off of variety and combining buffs/debuffs/procs, such a fix would go against the 'spirit' of the class.

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