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Thread: Spell Power Coefficent Calcuations

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    Shield of Telara wallweasels's Avatar
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    Default Spell Power Coefficent Calcuations

    So about a week ago I was going to test how Archons "Power in Numbers" is bugged, only giving 8% bonus damage instead of 16% when you have 4 auras up. However to calculate this I needed to figure out how much spell power bonus I got from Pillaging Stone in order to separate the two numbers. Upon testing I was confused to see that my spellpower bonus was 200%. When you factor in that it is a 2 second cast, this means it was getting 100% spell power. Now the old list being tossed around said PIllaging Stone was like 60% spell power...which is obviously a big difference in numbers. So I decided to test ALL spells, which I admit has taken a bit of time.

    A few notes before I start a big dump of number crunching:

    DoT spells and damage calculations:
    I have been confused on what to do with DoTs and how to calculate how much they get. I decided to calculate it based on their total damage minus their base damage, then base it off how many ticks they do. The numbers mostly lead to things that make sense so I kept up with it.

    RIFTs damage calculation with "rounding":

    Most people should notice that RIFT always rounds down. But it does not seem to do this over every calculation. To give a basic example if you did 12.2 damage with a 12.9 bonus on top of that, you would do 15.1 damage aka 15. It counts decimals to the finest point until the final damage notice, then snips off any decimal points and shows the real number.

    But Wally your numbers are very weird, why would X spell gain 24.68% spell power?:

    Simple actually, since my spell power is not always an even number, this means any "bonus" damage could be rounded as an end result. So assume if something is like 24%, that it "may" be 25% really. Some coefficients may actually be that weird, especially DoTs, because each "tick" may gain 22%, but the "total" spell power would maybe 150% bonus. I am not saying this is perfect by far but it is probably the closest I can get them. the only other way I can see ot make it close would be to use a static spell power like +100DPS. Since mine was 128.8DPS this means it WILL have to round. If we could force a non-rounding number then that would be more pindrop accurate. These numbers are mostly to the nearest 5s/10s place or one higher than it is. I couldn't imagine why someone though a skill should gain 22% spell power instead of 25%...but its possible. I would say there is probably a 1~5% margin of error for most of these.


    Necromancer

    Spreadsheet Summary: http://i52.tinypic.com/3005ddx.jpg

    Rounded Summary:
    Plague Bolt: 60%
    Necrosis: 150%/21.5%
    Soul Purge: 850%/106.25%
    Grave Rot: 215%/53.75%
    Last Gasp: 72%/12%

    Notes: Necromancer is pretty simple, and barely has any spells on its own. No I didn't do any pet abilities because I need to figure out how physical attack works before I calculate zealot/knight out. If people really demand knowing pet coefficients I will try to figure that all out :P At least this explains why Soul Purge rocks

    Warlock
    Spreadsheet Summary: http://i54.tinypic.com/10hu3wn.jpg

    Rounded Summary:
    Void Bolt: 100%
    Dark Touch: 140%/17.5%
    Life Leech: 175%/25%
    Devouring Shadows: 650%/162.5%
    Dark Fury: 150%
    Defile: 175%/22.75%
    Morality: 430%/86%
    Drain Bolt: 195%
    Neddra's Torture: 150%
    Neddra's Torture -3%: 145%

    Notes: I decided to do Neddra's Torture may give the 3% damage bonus when it does its final damage. So I did a -3% calculation and a normal calculation. Most likely 150% is the correct number, but I highly doubt 5% is going to make anyone go "HARUMPH YOUR NUMBERS SUCK!" on a skill like Neds Torture.

    Stormcaller

    Spreadsheet Summary: http://i51.tinypic.com/16icpwg.jpg

    Rounded Summary:
    Icicle: 56%
    Thunderbolt: 64%
    Forked Lightning: 96%
    Raging Storm: 345%/115%
    Electrocute: 285%/95%
    Arctic Blast: 100%
    Ice Shear: 97% (could be 100%)
    Static Discharge: 37%
    Flash Freeze: 120%
    Cloudburst: 83%
    Hailstorm 1: 128%/22%
    Hailstorm 2: 255%/43%
    Lightning Storm: 513%/103%
    Eye of the Storm: 728%/92%

    Notes: You will notice the damage variance on Forked Lightning is not consistent with a base of 65~69. I spammed this spell around 100 times and couldn't get a result different from 250~253 final damage. I assumed this was a rounding situation. There is also two Hailstorms because for DoT abilities they do not seem to gain any significant gain based on cast time. So Hailstorm 1 is factoring it as a 2 second cast, and Hailstorm 2 is not calculating based on a cast time. To get Eye of the storm you need to use the +Water% trait, so the damage has to be reduced by 51%. The numbers on skills that require a damage reduction like this may be off by a larger margin of error :/

    Dominator

    Spreadsheet Summary: http://i52.tinypic.com/290tyet.jpg

    Rounded Summary:
    Thunder Blast: 150%
    Neural Prod: 120%
    Deaths Edict: 150%
    Haunting Pain: 300%/60%
    Mana Wrench: 102%/21%
    Mental Shock: 150%
    Disorient: 100%

    Notes: I based haunting pain on total stacks of damage it did. So overall it did 530 damage, but it really does 53 per stack. It shouldn't be to different, it is just easier to calculate on the final damage and since the training dummy can't move...I couldn't reduce the stacks anyway. *cough* does make sense by Neural Prod does more damage than Cloudburst even with max electricity and other buffs

    Chloromancer

    Spreadsheet Summary: http://i56.tinypic.com/5uo8xj.jpg

    Rounded Summary:
    Vile Spores: 60%
    Withering Vines 1: 91%/13%
    Withering Vines 2: 140%/20%
    Ruin: 113%
    Natures Touch: 81%
    Natures Fury: 100%
    Corrosion: 142%/21%
    Bloom: 64%
    Flourish: 64%
    Stream Reclamation: 300%/60%
    Wild Growth: 10%/2%
    Natural Splendor: 700%/100%
    Void Life: 696%/100%

    Notes: Like Hailstorm I put up values for 1.5s cast and one not using a cast time for withering vines.

    Pyromancer

    Spreadsheet Summary: http://i51.tinypic.com/2s7we95.jpg

    Rounded Summary:
    Fireball: 100%
    Flame Bolt: 150%
    Cinderburst: 60%
    Countdown: 150%
    Flame Jet: 150%
    Fire Storm: 800%/160%
    Withering Flames: -20%/-5%
    Backdraft: 105%
    Fulminate: 350%

    Notes: So fulminate is at a 30.6% damage reduction and yeah....withering flames makes no sense. I tried and tried and it wouldn't even break even. It was doing 47.5 damage a stack up 5 times...for 238 and yeah. I have no idea can ANYONE please test this

    Archon

    Spreadsheet Summary: http://i54.tinypic.com/260fj81.jpg

    Rounded Summary:
    Pillaging Stone: 100%
    Searing Vitality: 125%/14%
    Volcanic Bomb: 45%
    DoT: 45%/15%
    Lava Field 1: 200%/29%
    Lava Field 2: 100%/15%
    Rockslide: 635/106
    Earthen Barrage: 100%
    Surging Flare: 100%
    Leeching Flames: 147%/25%
    Burning Purpose: 156%

    Note: Lava field is another cast-time DoT effect and thus I added one that has the cast time involved, and one that doesn't. I put volcanic bomb's DoT and Direct Damage on separate effects as they may have different values, but they do not. Either way keep it up. Burning purpose is at -22% damage due to the minimum amount I could get BP to work with.

    Elementalist

    Spreadsheet Summary: http://i56.tinypic.com/b991t3.jpg

    Rounded Summary:
    79.97% 79.97% Crystalline Missiles: 80%
    74.53% 74.53% Ignite: 75%
    72.20% 14.44% Ignite DoT: 75%/15%
    100.00% 100.00% Lightning Strike: 100%
    41.15% 6.86% Icy Carapace: 42%/7%
    97.83% 19.57% Burning Ground 100%/20%
    600.16% 100.03% Fiery Assault: 600%/100%

    Note: Icy Carapace is only on the DoT damage...since the max rank explosion damage still says 0~0 damage I do not know what the "base" max rank damage is Otherwise I would test it. also like Volcanic Bomb, I put both the DD and DoT values, although both work out the same.


    Final Words:

    So although not perfect this does give good reason not to believe the spell power coefficient list that has been floating around over the past few weeks. I would love to see these compared to Clerics abilities but I do not have a sufficiently high enough cleric to test this. Does anyone have any thoughts? complaints? Anything to add? Well time to hit submit on this post finally
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    I spent like 5 min trying to figure out where the heck you got these numbers from.
    Then I found the dps list finally. And I see.

    You are basing these coeff of the dps listed. For example, your pillaging stone example.
    You say 100% of 128.8.
    Now the old ratios were 40%. That 40% is 40% of your spell power is how much damage per cast you get.
    128.8"dps" means you have 644 spell power correct?
    Old list said 40%, so +257.6 damage.
    143 "dps" with archon, 715 sp, +286 damage.

    we just threw out the nonsensical "dps" value. it has no meaning. so we tossed it, and went with pure spellpower to spell.
    Last edited by sarianne; 03-22-2011 at 01:38 PM.

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    Shield of Telara wallweasels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarianne View Post
    I spent like 5 min trying to figure out where the heck you got these numbers from.
    Then I found the dps list finally. And I see.

    You are basing these coeff of the dps listed. For example, your pillaging stone example.
    You say 100% of 128.8.
    Now the old ratios were 40%. That 40% is 40% of your spell power is how much damage per cast you get.
    128.8"dps" means you have 644 spell power correct?
    Old list said 40%, so +257.6 damage.
    143 "dps" with archon, 715 sp, +286 damage.

    we just threw out the nonsensical "dps" value. it has no meaning. so we tossed it, and went with pure spellpower to spell.
    Interesting. I based it off the DPS value because otherwise it has no meaning and, in my head, that means TRION atleast thought about it. I guess in theory we are both correct.

    Void Bolt is listed previously as 40%. So at 128.8DPS is 644 spell power. * .4 = 257.6 / 2 second cast = 128.8 DPS added. My numbers are pretty much bang on the money. I do wish I could change my original post to include this factoid. I suppose my conclusion previously that the old numbers were "wrong" is true by how I did it as Void bolt adds 100% of your DPS, but only 40% of your spellpower. Interesting. I wonder if I feel up to comparing the two and which gets more clean numbers than the other. I assume spell power will because its always a real whole number.
    the PTS exists for a reason people. Go on, give your feedback, and help make RIFT a better game.
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wallweasels View Post
    Interesting. I based it off the DPS value because otherwise it has no meaning and, in my head, that means TRION atleast thought about it. I guess in theory we are both correct.

    Void Bolt is listed previously as 40%. So at 128.8DPS is 644 spell power. * .4 = 257.6 / 2 second cast = 128.8 DPS added. My numbers are pretty much bang on the money. I do wish I could change my original post to include this factoid. I suppose my conclusion previously that the old numbers were "wrong" is true by how I did it as Void bolt adds 100% of your DPS, but only 40% of your spellpower. Interesting. I wonder if I feel up to comparing the two and which gets more clean numbers than the other. I assume spell power will because its always a real whole number.
    Yeah. We dropped the dps value, as it would presumable by tied to cast time and thus give a value for how much damage you were getting. However, since there are +cast time spells/talents, and the dps value itself just doesnt work directly for many spells. We skipped. The listed dps is simply an extra number that has no meaning. Yes it does work with some spells. But many others it does not. so its best to just ignore it, and go with the source. Spell power.

    I didn't go through all the figures. But I noticed a few issues with stormcaller.
    icicle cast time 2. Its 2.5s base. So it would be getting presumably 322+damage from 2.5s cast. you note it getting 144. 44.7% coeff.
    thunderbolt. cast time 2. its 1.5s cast. So it would be presumably 193.2 damage/cast. you note it getting 163. 84.3% coeff.
    Artic blast cast time 2. its also a 2.5s base. 322+ damage from cast time, noted getting 257. 79.8% coeff.
    You list all channels and instants as 1s cast times for your coeff. This is pretty confusing as well.
    Raging storm should be counted as a 3s cast. Lit storm a 6s.

    Hail storm is also 2.5s cast.



    It should be noted the old list did ignore cast times entirely. Which could be confusing. It was a damage/cast per spell power ratio. not damage/sec per spell power.
    Last edited by sarianne; 03-22-2011 at 02:28 PM.

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    Shield of Telara wallweasels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarianne View Post
    Yeah. We dropped the dps value, as it would presumable by tied to cast time and thus give a value for how much damage you were getting. However, since there are +cast time spells/talents, and the dps value itself just doesnt work directly for many spells. We skipped. The listed dps is simply an extra number that has no meaning. Yes it does work with some spells. But many others it does not. so its best to just ignore it, and go with the source. Spell power.

    I didn't go through all the figures. But I noticed a few issues with stormcaller.
    icicle cast time 2. Its 2.5s base. So it would be getting presumably 322+damage from 2.5s cast. you note it getting 144. 44.7% coeff.
    thunderbolt. cast time 2. its 1.5s cast. So it would be presumably 193.2 damage/cast. you note it getting 163. 84.3% coeff.
    Artic blast cast time 2. its also a 2.5s base. 322+ damage from cast time, noted getting 257. 79.8% coeff.
    You list all channels and instants as 1s cast times for your coeff. This is pretty confusing as well.
    Raging storm should be counted as a 3s cast. Lit storm a 6s.

    Hail storm is also 2.5s cast.



    It should be noted the old list did ignore cast times entirely. Which could be confusing. It was a damage/cast per spell power ratio. not damage/sec per spell power.
    DAMN IT! I did completely forget to remember I had that -20% cast time. ffffffffffff
    the PTS exists for a reason people. Go on, give your feedback, and help make RIFT a better game.
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

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    If you do take the time to go over it again.
    Figuring instants as 1.5s due to the global cooldown will help give more appropriate dps values for them.

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    Shield of Telara wallweasels's Avatar
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    Well then Stormcaller would be as follows:

    Stormcaller
    Spreadsheet Summary: http://i55.tinypic.com/xfcdbb.jpg

    Icicle: 45%
    Thunderbolt: 64%
    Forked Lightning: 96%
    Raging Storm: 350%/150%
    Electrocute: 282%/94%
    Arctic Blast: 80%
    Ice Shear: 98%
    Static Discharge: 38%
    Flash Freeze: 120%
    Cloudburst: 83%
    Hailstorm 1:: 103%/17%
    Hailstorm 2: 256%/43%
    Lightning Storm: 513%/103%
    Eye of the Storm: 728%/92%

    With Hailstorm 1/2 being the same as above in one using the cast time and one not. I suppose really I should redo the entire list with the spell power calculations rather than the DPS calculations. Because really it seems instant-cast spells make a mockery of "DPS" classifications because they have no time to cast. The old list is superior in terms of raw data, just not as much without an explanation of how the numbers came to be. Adjusting to that would be easier most likely. Hmm 1.5s GCD would work for instants, but I dont think it would make the giant mess that is instants make anymore sense.
    Last edited by wallweasels; 03-22-2011 at 02:42 PM.
    the PTS exists for a reason people. Go on, give your feedback, and help make RIFT a better game.
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    well 1.5s for instants, as you can only cast them every 1.5s due to the global cooldown.

    This kind of thing is exactly why we went straight to spell power and how much damage it gives each spell directly.

    As going over the list you probably have noted.

    You have base damage.
    A spell with no cd, no aoe, and no debuffs generally will figure into the original dps values pretty accurately.
    However,
    Spells with debuffs take coeff penalties. look at sc's spells. they all do less "dps" then they should. This is due to the debuffs.
    if the spell is aoe, it gets a coeff boost.
    If the spell has a cooldown, it also gets a coeff boost.

    It would be neat to break your spreadsheets down, and figure out exactly how much each of these gives, and see if they are even.

    Also, tbolt is 1.5s cast. you have that wrong still.
    Last edited by sarianne; 03-22-2011 at 02:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sarianne View Post
    well 1.5s for instants, as you can only cast them every 1.5s due to the global cooldown.

    This kind of thing is exactly why we went straight to spell power and how much damage it gives each spell directly.

    As going over the list you probably have noted.

    You have base damage.
    A spell with no cd, no aoe, and no debuffs generally will figure into the original dps values pretty accurately.
    However,
    Spells with debuffs take coeff penalties. look at sc's spells. they all do less "dps" then they should. This is due to the debuffs.
    if the spell is aoe, it gets a coeff boost.
    If the spell has a cooldown, it also gets a coeff boost.

    It would be neat to break your spreadsheets down, and figure out exactly how much each of these gives, and see if they are even.

    Also, tbolt is 1.5s cast. you have that wrong still.
    indeed it would. Lol and yeah I just realized tbolt was in your post too. Well hmm, best drop this thread and ill pop another one up comparing the two within a day or two probably. It is obviously that spells with addtional considerations into what they do gain less damage. Which is, honestly, exactly why the system is flawed. It makes sense for skills, but also means the system effectively stares you in the face and lies to you about how much it should do.

    This is why i went with the DPS method, because it shows pretty much that the term "DPS" for how much spell power adds is a lie. I don't gain 128.8DPS on anything except a few nukes. If you calculate instants at 1.5 seconds, then spells that cast for 1.5 seconds better have some juicy reasons to use them or they become null against spells that "don't" have to cast, just wait.

    Spells would make a lot more sense if spell power added a percentage increase in damage. This would mean skills would have to be balanced on their base power, not an invisible system that the game makes 0 mention of. Should Vile Spores do less than almost every other nuke? Yes since its main function is to DPS=>HPS. But does that mean it should only use 24% of my spell power? No, it should use 100%.

    If spell power were to, lets say, add .25% bonus damage per spell power then vile spores could be balanced against void bolt based on base...not some hidden coefficient Not saying that .25% would be a good idea or amount, just a number off the top of my head.
    Last edited by wallweasels; 03-22-2011 at 03:07 PM.
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    yeah, def should be %.

    And you will find instants do less then 1.5s casts.



    I main SC, and it really forced me to look into these early. As you can see, SC is a mess with its debuffs/buffs in terms of coeff.

    Look at icicle.
    71-75 base. gets 45% on a 2.5s cast.
    Forked lit
    65-69 base. gets 96% coeff on a 1.5s cast.

    It has less base damage. has a shorter cast time. but does WAY WAY more damage.
    Icicle is broken for SC. its complete garbage. It gets less then half the dps from sp then it should.

    while we are at it. you skipped lit field. Stormcallers most important spell.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarianne View Post
    yeah, def should be %.

    And you will find instants do less then 1.5s casts.



    I main SC, and it really forced me to look into these early. As you can see, SC is a mess with its debuffs/buffs in terms of coeff.

    Look at icicle.
    71-75 base. gets 45% on a 2.5s cast.
    Forked lit
    65-69 base. gets 96% coeff on a 1.5s cast.

    It has less base damage. has a shorter cast time. but does WAY WAY more damage.
    Icicle is broken for SC. its complete garbage. It gets less then half the dps from sp then it should.

    while we are at it. you skipped lit field. Stormcallers most important spell.
    Wow If I could just remove SC from my list I would hah. Yes I did completely miss it, I guess thats what I get for making a spell bar then just going left to right. Must of missed lightning field and just forgotten about it Anyway im going to see if I can salvage this list into something to aid a list going into using Spell power alone. Can't fix a broken system but atleast I can try to make trions a little less messy lol
    Last edited by wallweasels; 03-22-2011 at 03:21 PM.
    the PTS exists for a reason people. Go on, give your feedback, and help make RIFT a better game.
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    Just saying

    I dont think you should divide the final percentage by the cast time

    Its giving misleading numbers

    Example

    Fireball = 100%
    Firebolt = 150%
    Cinderburst = 60%

    Which means
    1 Spell power will give Fireball 1 damage, Firebolt 1.5 damage, Cinderburst 0.6 damage
    This is implying that when you get enough SP, you should just spam Firebolts

    In reality the coefficient is
    Fireball 200%
    Firebolt 150%
    Cinderburst 360%

    1 Spell power will give Fireball 2 damage, Firebolt 1.5 damage, Cinderburst 3.6 damage
    It's not a damage meters fault you can't hit a certain dps and others similar to you can, it's the fault of your bad gear, bad spec, or bad rotation. So stop getting mad at the meters and invest some time into not being bad.

    DPS Mathcraft - How damage works
    DPS Mathcraft - STR vs DEX
    DPS Mathcraft - Armor
    Warrior DPS Calculator *UPDATED* v0.2
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    Thanks for the post OP! Numbers posts are fun to read

    Quote Originally Posted by sarianne View Post
    ...
    Look at icicle.
    71-75 base. gets 45% on a 2.5s cast.
    Forked lit
    65-69 base. gets 96% coeff on a 1.5s cast.

    It has less base damage. has a shorter cast time. but does WAY WAY more damage.
    Icicle is broken for SC. its complete garbage. It gets less then half the dps from sp then it should.
    ...
    Are you factoring in that some of these skills do more than just dmg.
    Icicle for example is a slow and traited its around a 75% slow which I think is better or equal to wither. It's not just about dmg for some skills but utitlity that probably should decrease their dmg or else they become the only skills worth using because they have both dps and utility. If every skill was aoe and a slow and a flat dps then you would just choose the best of the dps and say why use another skill. Instead a variance makes you use a lower dps skill FOR its utility portion. It also triggers hypo too, once again, nothing to do with dps until you pop a skill behind it that's affected by hypo on the target. Isn't getting a gain in a second skill still worth something.
    Last edited by Fernt; 03-22-2011 at 10:00 PM.

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    So you take a base of 1.5 sec cast time ofr instant due to GCD ?

    How about 1 sec cast spell, how about heatwave, that reduces GCD to 1 sec ?

    Very interesting post, KUTGW

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    Quote Originally Posted by wallweasels View Post
    DAMN IT! I did completely forget to remember I had that -20% cast time. ffffffffffff
    how does one forget to remember?

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