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Thread: end-game DPS'ing with a mage, and my thoughts.

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default end-game DPS'ing with a mage, and my thoughts.

    I'm fully geared out in T1 gear, and rock a Necro(31)/Lock(35) build.

    I have come to the conclusion that, besides Chloromancer and Archon for raid healing/buffs, mage is WORTHLESS if you're attempting to DPS at PvE end-game. Warriors and rogues have WAY better single-target DPS than me.

    The only DPS build that is viable is that bugged-out Archon build, which will get fixed. Besides that, the only build that even comes remotely close is Necro/Lock, and am still 100-150 DPS behind a rogue that is just as geared as I am. I'd have to use Neddra's Torture, Lich and Sacrifice Life: Damage in order to get on the same level.

    I know I'm QQ'ing a little here, this is driving me insane. If you know a half-way decent DPS spec and rotation, please post it here and help a brother out.

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    I wonder if their intention for mages are to be the AoE kings. I don't really mind having that position. Makes it feel more unique than just a dps. I mean I'm sure they could work a few more numbers in our favor. But idk. Lowering our GCD or giving us more forms of passive haste would help moreso than just tweaking damage imo. It would give us much better reaction ability in PvP too.

  3. #3
    Shadowlander
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    All those rogues and warriors that are doing way more damage than mages are abusing clearly bugged mechanics. In the case of rogues they are playing like they have 10 combo points instead of 5, and in the case of the warriors it's mainly a talent point that let them ignore up to 100% of the armor of a target, but you can add too a pet that mostly unattended do way too much damage contribution.

    Btw, for mages, the reason Necro/lock do better damage than lock/somethingelse is that the rogue pet do way too much damage basiclly unattended.

  4. #4
    Rift Master
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    honestly, for the most part, I haven't seen this gross imbalance in pve yet.
    Taking my time. so im in level 42-50 blues. And T1 instances/rifts. I have been #1 every time by a margin.
    With only a few instances of others close.

    I run 33elem/33sc. AoE I do 1200-3000 dps. usually, no one is even close to my aoe damage. 2-3x the damage of everyone else is normal there.
    Once I saw an undergeared sab come close. That was :/.
    Single target. Varies greatly by boss fight of course. Tank and spank? 500-700dps. And I am not in epics. I have level 42 blues mostly. ess are all lvel 42. weapon is now t1 drop. a few greens still. Not even t1 token gear. If I can average 600 dps now, I can not imagine not doing 700-800 with ease in epics. Probably more.

    Sure some balance does need to be metted out. thats a pure pve spec. That sab that almost matched me in aoe, also was neck and neck with single target. And that guy was in straight up greens. And we all know what sabs do in pvp. that is some bs. And needs to be toned down.

    There is alot of aoe in this game. single target dps is NOT all that matters. That I can forked lit, lit field to blow elite adds, as well as deal extra dps to bosses at the same time on fights of that kind is important.
    Oh noes, I do 100 dps less then a war single target? well I do 1000dps more then them aoe.

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarianne View Post
    honestly, for the most part, I haven't seen this gross imbalance in pve yet.
    Taking my time. so im in level 42-50 blues. And T1 instances/rifts. I have been #1 every time by a margin.
    With only a few instances of others close.

    I run 33elem/33sc. AoE I do 1200-3000 dps. usually, no one is even close to my aoe damage. 2-3x the damage of everyone else is normal there.
    Once I saw an undergeared sab come close. That was :/.
    Single target. Varies greatly by boss fight of course. Tank and spank? 500-700dps. And I am not in epics. I have level 42 blues mostly. ess are all lvel 42. weapon is now t1 drop. a few greens still. Not even t1 token gear. If I can average 600 dps now, I can not imagine not doing 700-800 with ease in epics. Probably more.

    Sure some balance does need to be metted out. thats a pure pve spec. That sab that almost matched me in aoe, also was neck and neck with single target. And that guy was in straight up greens. And we all know what sabs do in pvp. that is some bs. And needs to be toned down.

    There is alot of aoe in this game. single target dps is NOT all that matters. That I can forked lit, lit field to blow elite adds, as well as deal extra dps to bosses at the same time on fights of that kind is important.
    Oh noes, I do 100 dps less then a war single target? well I do 1000dps more then them aoe.
    I've heard issues with SC specs running out of mana quickly. Do you find this true?

  6. #6
    Prophet of Telara
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    In most of my runs, the melees have a very hard time on boss fights due to boss PBAE, cleaves, and their other special attacks.

    I'm beginning to suspect the "leet" dudes who keep chiming in about how mages suck in end-game PvE are just trolls.

    Edit - About SC running out of mana: SC does run out of mana quickly. Look for another soul combo that has mana regen and fits your playstyle (Dom if you like CC, Lock if you like DPS, etc...)
    Last edited by Qaedyan; 03-22-2011 at 08:51 AM.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple Intruder313's Avatar
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    In my perfect world Rogues should be king of Single-Target DPS with Mages coming in as top of the AoE pile. Warriors should be a versatile but just behind the other 2 in those respective roles.

    That of course can only happen if encounter design perfectly allows the various roles to contribute equally and if Raids were not so elitist that they will chop-and-change people for every Boss, taking 10 Saboteurs one moment and then 10 AoE-bots next.

    A balanced Raid group of 20 people should just work without the need to worry about role-swapping / optimisation for the sake of 1-2% more DPS.

    I know my perfect world is not the real world

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mboyer87 View Post
    I've heard issues with SC specs running out of mana quickly. Do you find this true?
    only at low levels I did. Higher I got the less mana issues I had.
    Blowing your big aoes constantly will burn mana on trash. But revit works fine. Elem's in combat channel burns alot of charge, and doesnt return nearly as much/sec as revit. But works fine when really needed.

    Mana cost of spells does not keep scaling with gear. The more int you have, the larger your pool, and the more you get back from regen skills. the more wisdom you have the more your passive regen.

    And a major mana pot gives 2k mana. That will keep you going for a long time, before you need to use channel.
    Knowing when to channel is good too. Fight require a los check at some point? great time to channel.

    SC all by itself obviously has no mana tools. thats bad. but any of the combo with it choices tend to work fine. lock, archon, elem. 51 sc/14 elem would be a problem. you have no in combat mana tool.

    havent really timed it. but I would hazard full dps using forked and lit field as prime skills, I go about 3min without needed to channel elem. 5min if I use a mana pot.
    Last edited by sarianne; 03-22-2011 at 08:59 AM.

  9. #9
    Shield of Telara Cabreon's Avatar
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    for any t1/2 instance I normally run the necro/lock build for dps but I am normally chloro/lock during boss fights for the utilities. I have found that in aoe fights I am on par with good rogues and warriors but if those people knew how to play their class I am out classed every time. I have a Rng/Mm rogue I run T2s with and his dps is always over 2k during aoe fights. I hit around 1800 dps by RJ parsers. As for single target dps I push roughly around 600 dps and my rogue friend hits up to 1k dps. This is without using any cast time spells unless I push an opportunity. I typically run a 5 dot rotation and drop grave rot. I Soul purge if I have a few seconds to burn during the fight but I maintain my dot rotation. I am happy with this damage because I did sacrifice some of my talent points to have more health and have neddra's essence and shadow life to make sure I don't die from 2 hits on mobs. I am also in 7/9 t2 epics including the Ice Rot staff from Caylx and the robes off of Caelia.

  10. #10
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by mboyer87 View Post
    I've heard issues with SC specs running out of mana quickly. Do you find this true?
    As others have said, mana tools. If you looked at his spec you'd know he could turn charge into mana as a channel. I find it's best used when you've *just* refreshed every debuff and everything is on cooldown, so you can take maybe 2 ticks of regen before something better than thunderbolt is up.

  11. #11
    Rift Chaser
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    Quote Originally Posted by mboyer87 View Post
    I've heard issues with SC specs running out of mana quickly. Do you find this true?
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0z...0xcsbo.xx0G0VV

    stack crit and lolol

  12. #12
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breyer View Post

    Nice, tried that build, was at full mana the entire time on the dummies. Just formatted, havent set up ACT yet, going to do that now to see what kind of dps it does.

  13. #13
    Rift Master Tyler1986's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mboyer87 View Post
    I have come to the conclusion that, besides Chloromancer and Archon for raid healing/buffs, mage is WORTHLESS if you're attempting to DPS at PvE end-game. Warriors and rogues have WAY better single-target DPS than me.
    I put a little emphasis in there to help you understand your problem.

    Do I outparse warriors and rogues? You bet your ***, tons of them. Do I out parse good warriors and rogues, sometimes, sometimes not. But I am competitive. Yes, warriors and rogues do more damage than mages, maybe this is your first trip to the forums and you've missed the 605 other threads with this exact topic, but a well played mage will out parse the majority (read average) warrior or rogue all day long.

    I've only been out parsed by 1 rogue (from the top raiding guild on our server) and 1 warrior (in my guild) in any instance I've ever run. It's just that the majority of players playing this game are of average skill, that's why it's called "average". What I think the case is here is you are one of them, so you will be beaten by average players who are rogues or warriors. I will not.

    Now the part where I probably sound like a snob, but whatever, here it goes. Your build is wrong. first of all, 33/33 is better than going either way in either tree, I'm not the end all be all necro / lock here, but I've done a fair amount of testing and can say with more than reasonable certainty that if you specced 33/33 correctly you will get better dps, regardless of what your 31/35 build, or 35/31 for that matter. There are wasted points in there somewhere. Secondly, for single target dps (st only, not aoe) go 51/15 necro/lock, it's the best single target dps using a combo of those 2 souls you will find. Of course I haven't tested every single build possible using full points in necro / lock, but enough to be confident in the info I am giving you.

    I could give you the rotation too, but that would ruin the fun. If you want to be an above average mage you have to spend time at the training dummies with ACT. I've spent hours parsing against the training dummy, I refine specs my moving as little as 1-3 points around to see how it affects dps, I try all types of different rotations to see what works best, and I analyze my ACT parses after all of this.

    And while finding an optimal rotation is good, the best tip I can give you is to practice, practice, practice that rotation. You want to be able to do it with your eyes closed, because there's gonna be times when you damn near have to. The mobile nature of so many fights it will be very helpful if you don't have to stare at your hotbars to have your rotation down. You need your rotation to be 2nd nature, and you need to know the fastest way to recover after you mess it up, because you will mess it up. Some fights have too many factors, you might be at a point for a channeled or cast time spell in your rotation and have to joust, now what???

    These are the types of things that you want to know, that practice on a training dummy will help with. I know when I'm in a relatively new build / rotation and I get screwed up on my rotation, mid fight, while avoiding fire cones and chasing a teleporting mob, it's possible to lock up while your brain tries to figure out what the best spell to cast to get back on track is, all the while you are moving, trying to think, trying to get back into your rotation, it's a cluster ****. Practicing your rotation to the point of having it 2nd nature will avoid those problems, when you miss a spell you'll immediately know what to do.

    I might have sounded like a **** in parts of this post, but it's reality. Become a good mage and you'll out parse most players. If you surround yourself with other good players (which you should) you won't always win, maybe you'll never win, but hey, you've always got chloro (jaykayjaykay) but you should be able to hold your own on a respectable level.

    I guess it could be that there just are no good rogues or warriors on my server, or I've never crossed paths with them, but I doubt it. Mages can hold there own. It reminds me of a saying:

    The man who says he can and the man who says he can't are both right.

    Which one are you?

  14. #14
    Ascendant phoenixfire82's Avatar
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    ^ nobody cares about nec/lock. we know it's viable, but relative to BM it's not. it's a boring as **** build, too. there's no reason it should trounce pyro in pve dps, though. and no, you are not outdpsing any bm that's capable of pressing 2 or 3 buttons. only spec mage has going for it atm is SC for aoe, which we all know doesn't mean squat. only a sab can compete with sc in aoe.

  15. #15
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyler1986 View Post
    I put a little emphasis in there to help you understand your problem.

    Do I outparse warriors and rogues? You bet your ***, tons of them. Do I out parse good warriors and rogues, sometimes, sometimes not. But I am competitive. Yes, warriors and rogues do more damage than mages, maybe this is your first trip to the forums and you've missed the 605 other threads with this exact topic, but a well played mage will out parse the majority (read average) warrior or rogue all day long.

    I've only been out parsed by 1 rogue (from the top raiding guild on our server) and 1 warrior (in my guild) in any instance I've ever run. It's just that the majority of players playing this game are of average skill, that's why it's called "average". What I think the case is here is you are one of them, so you will be beaten by average players who are rogues or warriors. I will not.

    Now the part where I probably sound like a snob, but whatever, here it goes. Your build is wrong. first of all, 33/33 is better than going either way in either tree, I'm not the end all be all necro / lock here, but I've done a fair amount of testing and can say with more than reasonable certainty that if you specced 33/33 correctly you will get better dps, regardless of what your 31/35 build, or 35/31 for that matter. There are wasted points in there somewhere. Secondly, for single target dps (st only, not aoe) go 51/15 necro/lock, it's the best single target dps using a combo of those 2 souls you will find. Of course I haven't tested every single build possible using full points in necro / lock, but enough to be confident in the info I am giving you.

    I could give you the rotation too, but that would ruin the fun. If you want to be an above average mage you have to spend time at the training dummies with ACT. I've spent hours parsing against the training dummy, I refine specs my moving as little as 1-3 points around to see how it affects dps, I try all types of different rotations to see what works best, and I analyze my ACT parses after all of this.

    And while finding an optimal rotation is good, the best tip I can give you is to practice, practice, practice that rotation. You want to be able to do it with your eyes closed, because there's gonna be times when you damn near have to. The mobile nature of so many fights it will be very helpful if you don't have to stare at your hotbars to have your rotation down. You need your rotation to be 2nd nature, and you need to know the fastest way to recover after you mess it up, because you will mess it up. Some fights have too many factors, you might be at a point for a channeled or cast time spell in your rotation and have to joust, now what???

    These are the types of things that you want to know, that practice on a training dummy will help with. I know when I'm in a relatively new build / rotation and I get screwed up on my rotation, mid fight, while avoiding fire cones and chasing a teleporting mob, it's possible to lock up while your brain tries to figure out what the best spell to cast to get back on track is, all the while you are moving, trying to think, trying to get back into your rotation, it's a cluster ****. Practicing your rotation to the point of having it 2nd nature will avoid those problems, when you miss a spell you'll immediately know what to do.

    I might have sounded like a **** in parts of this post, but it's reality. Become a good mage and you'll out parse most players. If you surround yourself with other good players (which you should) you won't always win, maybe you'll never win, but hey, you've always got chloro (jaykayjaykay) but you should be able to hold your own on a respectable level.

    I guess it could be that there just are no good rogues or warriors on my server, or I've never crossed paths with them, but I doubt it. Mages can hold there own. It reminds me of a saying:

    The man who says he can and the man who says he can't are both right.

    Which one are you?
    Out of curiosity could you link your 33/33 build? Curious what's really important that you spend those extra 2 points in necro over the lock soul.

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