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Thread: Trion: Here's some ideas to help us out

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    General of Telara Sarathor's Avatar
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    Exclamation Trion: Here's some ideas to help us out

    Here are a couple of things I would like to see in the game. I feel that these ideas would help the mage by a ton. I'm sort of leaning towards canceling at this point, even thought I love the game, it's just getting a bit annoying.

    -Casters (including healers) need to have a way to increase the gap >>efficiently<< and keep the gap for as long as they can. I can't count the number of times I've managed to slip away only have have a cleric, rogue, or warrior charge back at me, and now the only gap increasing ability I had is on cooldown, I'm slowed, stunned, mezzed, dead. Casters have cast times, so we have to stand still to cast, thus, we need to be able to get away in time to get a couple of spells off. We currently don't have the tools needed to kite enemies effectively.

    -Ranged attacks from Warriors and Rogues need to be toned down. I'm not saying reduce damage par se, but make all of their crowd control (except a few needed for tanking) require melee range in order to perform the ability. It's incredibly annoying for a caster to be CC'd from a distance; it pretty much makes gap increasing abilities moot.

    -Mages need their CC abilities in the lower tiers, at least a good portion of them. There are a lot of spells we get at the higher levels that help a lot when escaping death, but if you want a decent PvP spec, you'll only get about 2 or 3 of them, which isn't enough against the other callings that have ranged CC and gap closing abilities. It would also be amazing if you either lowered the cast time, or removed the cast time, on a lot of them, like wither, which is a slow, and is easily countered by many abilities from the other callings.

    -Mages also need some of their soul's damage increased across the board, excluding Pryomancer. Our spells hit just as hard as Warriors abilities, but ours require a longer global cooldown and/or a cast time. Me, being 50, with 700 spellpower, I hit pretty weak against players who do more damage than me. DPCT is extremely low, and that needs to be fixed for both PvP and PvE.

    -The last thing I'd like to add is our 2 mangy shields we get (Living shell is nice for the mana, but for defense, ehhh). They're not good at all, and they absorb a fraction of the damage players can do to us. I would recommend letting shields from all callings scale with spellpower/attack power (whichever one is higher) but be careful not to let Clerics double dip into the coefficient.

    A lot of these will help Casters a good deal in warfronts or world PvP (when it happens). I'm not saying a Mage should go into a warfront and be as strong a the current Warrior, but they should be able to hold their own in 1v1 battles. Again, they should be able to hold their own, not faceroll their opponent, they are two different things. Also, I'm aware that this game isn't about 1v1, but there are more times when 1v1 battles happen, and Mages need to have the tools to deal with it.

    Also, I would like to add something for PvP in general. A lot of abilities need to share diminishing returns, and you need to look at AoE silences like arresting presence and whatever the ability sabs get. it's annoying to be slowed and silenced from a sab, or run around helplessly as a dominator silences you (they dont' try to drain mana anymore). I feel that those abilities are way too strong, and need a decent cooldown on them.

    The main reason for the diminishing returns is the sheer amount of damage some builds can pump out, along with having decent CC. When some builds and callings can kill you within their plethora of CC, there's a problem there. I'm talking about all callings, too. It's not, for a lack of a better word, fair for a player to use a couple of different CC and be able to kill another player without letting that player fight back (and I'm including the other player using their break free). I feel that a lot of CC's should share diminishing returns, so that players may have a chance.

    For anyone who reads this, and hoping Trion will too, thank you for your time and constructive feedback is appreciated.

    Sarathor@Byriel Rank 7 Defiant Mage - retired
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    General of Telara Sarathor's Avatar
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    bumpers, constructive feedback would be appreciated.

    Sarathor@Byriel Rank 7 Defiant Mage - retired
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    General of Telara Belterra's Avatar
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    Mages have many, many CC's so that's fine. I think the real problem is how little mages seem to grow in power towards endgame. If the passive "per point invested" bonus was larger and the skills scaled up more in damage as you upgrade them, AND you remove flamespear and freeze armour from riftblade things would be fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarathor View Post
    bumpers, constructive feedback would be appreciated.
    play a cleric if you want to cast and last, its what i am switching to, i cant beleive how many stuns warriros get, i thought rogues in wow were bad.

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    General of Telara Sarathor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belterra View Post
    Mages have many, many CC's so that's fine. I think the real problem is how little mages seem to grow in power towards endgame. If the passive "per point invested" bonus was larger and the skills scaled up more in damage as you upgrade them, AND you remove flamespear and freeze armour from riftblade things would be fine.
    The thing about CC is that the only viable spec we just don't have enough, for don't have time to react fast enough due to thier stuns, charges, and slows. It's not so much CC as it is gap increasing abilities. Yes, we have some, but the other callings go so many gap closing abilities that it makes it moot to try and escape. The only thing I can do is Stand my ground, and try to nuke them.

    Chloromancer: I don't think this tree really has a gap increasing ability. We have wild abandon which is nice if someone else slows them (or we pick up a slow ourselves), but they can stun us, and charge us, or start using ranged abilities, forcing us to stand and cast to try and heal, or blow bloom, flourish, and ruin trying to stay alive. The only way I can Chloromancers gain survivability is to allow us to Synthesis ourselves. Most won't because they're be on the relic or stone carriers, but when it comes to world PvP, it would be very helpful for us.

    Dominator: We can CC them twice and get away, plust Storm Shackle and mobile damage, but our defenses once those are on cooldown is very low. What usually happens is we'll blow most of cooldowns trying to stay alive, and we need to blow them fast, but then after they're used and done with, it's very easy for the other target to get a kill on us. Our only hope is the run and cast instant in hopes that we can finish them off, but they also have ranged attacks that can do some damage, and because of our low armor and health it's more than likely they'll get a killing blow before us. Now, Dominator is a very good soul for CC, and I'm not disputing that, and they are capable of 1v1 combat, or even group non-PuG combat, but our survivability is lacking, and most other souls that offer some survivability usually have it at the higher tiers, which makes it hard for us to take.

    Warlock: This is one of those surviving souls, which has decent synergy with the other souls, but it's weakness is that their CC's are on cast times, or at least most of them. 1.5 seconds is more than enough time to catch up to a Warlock, and even then, they still have their gap closing abilities. Warlocks also have to spend a hefty amount of points into the soul for the survivability, which leads to other souls, which could help us with CC and damage, hard to obtain.

    Necromancer: I don't like pet classes, so I can't really comment, but looking at the tree it seems to have decent survivability, but you're pet is also a necessary component to your damage. Paired with the Warlock, I bet this soul offers a lot, but I can't really comment much on it, except it's pet dependent in most cases.

    Stomcaller: This soul is ok, it has slows, roots, and a gap increasing ability (Ride the Wind), and it's nice for helping to kill clusters of players, but it's weakness is again survivability, and it can be easily counters with slows. I've played Stormcaller before, just to try it out, and even though you can rake up the damage, a single healer can heal their group enough for them to kill you in a few hits. Another note I'd like to add is that Ride the Wind is easily countered and I would love to see this ability increase movement speed and make you immune to movement impairing effects, but not other forms of CC. Stormcallers can shine if their group backs them up, and can do decent in 1v1, but without proper survivability, we're very weak.

    Pyromancer: This soul is very nice once you hit 44 for GoS. GoS is the single spell within this soul that makes the class viable. They're still killable, but when you get RNG luck, detaunt, and Rune Shield, most players can't take you down before you can kill them. I do like this soul for PvP and don't really have an complaints. The trade off in our talents (like reduced health) is made up for with the damage increase along with our damage reduction from GoS.

    Elementalist: Looking over their tree, I've never gone into a warfront as one, maybe they have some hidden thing that makes the viable, but I sure didn't see it. Ice shield and a few other talents make this soul look good, but the shield is very blah when it comes to damage mitigation, and I would love to see it scale with spellpower.


    Archon: This soul is only good as a buff puppet and debuffing your target. You can get killed fast, and if you want to do any sort of damage, you'll need to go 51 points and abuse power drain. It's nice for group combat, but their survivability is low, and you have to spend time buffing yourself every time you die, or at least have to increase your endurance.

    Archmage: This soul has some really good defense talents in it, so much so that I don't want to make a PvP build without it, and with it, I have to take survivbility talents to have hope against melee classes. It does work very nice, and I don't really have complain about the soul, other than the top tier talents should be looked at, as some of them are very "meh."



    So, I agree that we have the CC, survivability, and damage, but most of them are in the higher end of the tree, which makes it hard to come up with a build that can balance everything out enough for us to be competitive in open world or instanced PvP.
    Last edited by Sarathor; 03-19-2011 at 08:39 AM.

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    General of Telara Sarathor's Avatar
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    bumps again!

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    Rift Disciple Onideath's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if their is but i just thought of this :

    Archmage could have a talent so main spells like Fireball, Plague bolt, Void Bolt, etc have slowing effects. But this could be like a 3rd tier talent or maybe 2nd cos this could really help alot. could be:

    1/5 = 7% Movement slow.
    2/5 = 14% Movement slow.
    3/5 = 21% Movement slow.
    4/5 = 28% Movement slow.
    5/5 = 35% Movement slow.

    Plus they need to increase damage. A warrior can do 1600 damage from 2 hits which takes little over 2 secs, in that time i manage to cast 1 Fireball and hit for 600

    Or maybe a Talent to reduce the damage finishing moves do to us? this could be very nice. (Not sure if their already is once again)

  8. #8
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    Bump for constructive non whining posts.

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    Yeah I'm not quite sure where you get this pyro's don't need any bumps.

    Also, I'm not sure why you think your thread needs you to bump it, if it has anything worth talking about or that folks want to it'll get bumped.

    When you say things like:

    but when you get RNG luck, detaunt, and Rune Shield, most players can't take you down before you can kill them.
    Detaunt only halves the damage until you do something to them negative (which is all pyro's do) Rng is a terrible terrible thing to point to as a winning point. So you're down to runeshield. Which again is a chance, and even when it goes off it's not exactly a safety net.

    Paired with the Warlock, I bet this soul offers a lot, but I can't really comment much on it, except it's pet dependent in most cases.
    Then don't comment, and necros do plenty without their pets. Which isn't to say some adjustments aren't needed, but not many really, they load dots and get alot of health from what they do.
    Last edited by Liper; 03-19-2011 at 05:07 PM.

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    General of Telara Sarathor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liper View Post
    Yeah I'm not quite sure where you get this pyro's don't need any bumps.

    Also, I'm not sure why you think your thread needs you to bump it, if it has anything worth talking about or that folks want to it'll get bumped.

    When you say things like:



    Detaunt only halves the damage until you do something to them negative (which is all pyro's do) Rng is a terrible terrible thing to point to as a winning point. So you're down to runeshield. Which again is a chance, and even when it goes off it's not exactly a safety net.

    Then don't comment, and necros do plenty without their pets. Which isn't to say some adjustments aren't needed, but not many really, they load dots and get alot of health from what they do.
    I bump it because I want to, and I would like feedback from other players, even rude ones such as yourself.

    Secondly, I mentioned detaunt because it's very useful when you have someone on you, and you're focusing the fang carrier. You don't have time to take care of the person on you, because you want to complete an objective. I'm sorry that I didn't mention detaunt as situational, I assumed players would figure that out for themselves. Also, runic shield is pretty nice when you buff it up to 50% damage reduction, and I'm pretty sure it stacks with GoS. I've played a lot of PvP specs, some made myself, some other have made, and I believe Pyro is in a good place, especially compared to other souls in our calling.

    Thirdly, I mentioned Necromancer because I wanted to give my thoughts and opinions on each soul, not leave one out. I put forth my ideas about the soul, and even said I won't talk too much on it, as I've not played it much. My assessment about being pet dependent came from the tree, that has 10 talents that require a pet to gain benefit from, leaving 8 talents that have very little, or none at all, to do with pets. I'm not trying to say they depend on pets, I'm saying they are pet dependent, or I should have rephrased it to say, "Necromancers who get the most benefit from their tree are pet dependent."

    Thank for you input, though.
    Last edited by Sarathor; 03-19-2011 at 06:02 PM.

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    I mentioned detaunt because it's very useful when you have someone on you and you're focusing the fang carrier.
    No you mentioned it as part of a package to kill someone down quickly that's attacking you and as a survival tool of pyromancers.

    Also, runic shield is pretty nice when you buff it up to 50% damage reduction,
    Fire Shield when buffed has a 30% chance to prevent 15% of your health in damage once every 30seconds.

    Runic Shield Which is a deep Archmage ability.... means you lost 15% + 2.4%of your DPS to get this, and it's a option for all mages, not pyros.

    When you say this is ideas to help mages out, only talk about things that will help em out then... Most of what you've written makes it clear you don't really understand the powers and factors for the classes. I talk about pyro's, archons, and chloros because that's what I know pretty well.

    When you create a list of abilities just by browsing a soul tree then guessing at what that may or may not need is far from constructive, nor "bump worthy"

    Since you mention pyro in a pvp setting, and you also talk about how awesome detaunt is, and you talk about the shield you must be a pretty high ranked lvl 50... considering you need to be rank 5 to get it to 50% right?

    I believe Pyro is in a good place, especially compared to other souls in our calling.
    Two problems, mage is a varried class to begin with soul wise; and pyro's don't care how they compare with other mages they care about how their dps ranks with other dps classes. Since you mentioned it though, Archon can put out as much or more dps as a pyro in most situations...

    *edit*
    to add a bit about rune shield, it eats your charge so since it's ate you can't use your biggest nuke either. so it's back to fireballs 2seconds, cinderblast 8seconds, or instant fire strikes (cooldown)
    Last edited by Liper; 03-19-2011 at 06:21 PM. Reason: to add more information.

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    General of Telara Sarathor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liper View Post
    No you mentioned it as part of a package to kill someone down quickly that's attacking you and as a survival tool of pyromancers.



    Fire Shield when buffed has a 30% chance to prevent 15% of your health in damage once every 30seconds.

    Runic Shield Which is a deep Archmage ability.... means you lost 15% + 2.4%of your DPS to get this, and it's a option for all mages, not pyros.

    When you say this is ideas to help mages out, only talk about things that will help em out then... Most of what you've written makes it clear you don't really understand the powers and factors for the classes. I talk about pyro's, archons, and chloros because that's what I know pretty well.

    When you create a list of abilities just by browsing a soul tree then guessing at what that may or may not need is far from constructive, nor "bump worthy"

    Since you mention pyro in a pvp setting, and you also talk about how awesome detaunt is, and you talk about the shield you must be a pretty high ranked lvl 50... considering you need to be rank 5 to get it to 50% right?



    Two problems, mage is a varried class to begin with soul wise; and pyro's don't care how they compare with other mages they care about how their dps ranks with other dps classes. Since you mentioned it though, Archon can put out as much or more dps as a pyro in most situations...

    *edit*
    to add a bit about rune shield, it eats your charge so since it's ate you can't use your biggest nuke either. so it's back to fireballs 2seconds, cinderblast 8seconds, or instant fire strikes (cooldown)
    I was actually giving an example of Pyromancers with Archmage abilities added to them. I know that you have to sacrifice damage talents for PvP talents, and that's a choice the player has to make.

    Runic shield is used when Fulminate is on cooldown, and to help survive when people are targeting you. Runic shield is very useful, and some mages go 44 pyro instead of 51 pyro, and they do well. You can't go full 5 points into the talent needed to buff Runic Shield while taking the full 51 pyro build.

    Also, this is what I said, " They're still killable, but when you get RNG luck, detaunt, and Rune Shield, most players can't take you down before you can kill them." Maybe I should of worded it different, like I should of said If instead of when. I just had no idea someone was going to scrutinze it that badly that they didn't understand what I was talking about. This is what I meant, since you didn't understand. GoS, of course fire shield, should of added that too but didn't, are two talents that are great for Pyro survivability, but they still run into problems with other callings IF there is no healer backing them up. If they go into the Archmage soul and pick up some defense talents, and of course sacrificing damage on their way, they can have some really nice abilities to help mitigate damage from other players. This is, of course, if you decide that you want the defense talents instead. However, I play fire with this build and I die rarely in warfronts because I know what to do.

    I get it, you didn't like my subsection for Pyros. You don't like the fact that I mentioned something from other souls that help aid the Pyro. Yeah, maybe I should of stuck with just plain old pyro, but that's one of my builds, and that's what I know best. Instead of responding and nitpicking your own opinions into this thread, you should of just posted your own thoughts and feelings about each soul (or the four you know best), and respecfully disagreed. Instead, you got all butt hurt because I mentioned your main soul is fine, and decided to launch an attack. I would have gladly read and sympathized with your statements, as I'm doing with the rude ones you've already posted. I wanted to make this thread for constructive feedback for the devs, not turn it into another flame war, QQ post.

    Now, that being said, I would love to hear your thoughts and opinions about that souls you know best, and how you would change them for the better.

    EDIT: Sorry, even though I mentioned PvE once in my original post, the second post responding to someone was more about PvP than PvE. I'm Archon for PvE, and I do believe Pyro's damage needs a little buffed when it comes to PvE DPS, but I still think we're find in PvP.
    Last edited by Sarathor; 03-19-2011 at 07:39 PM.

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  13. #13
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    Every bit of DPS you sacrifice to "survive" in pvp you increase the time they have to beat you.

    You can argue what's beneficial, but I really don't think you're rank 5 archmage, you're not doing anything but guessing at things at this point.

    As it stands, you are again showing ignorance. Even KNOWING I am going to examine this closely (and really it's not all that close an exam).

    Case in point

    Runic shield is used when Fulminate is on cooldown,
    No, first you gotta build up with charges, b) the runic shield at the lvl you took it... you can't have fulminate as well. The only way to have both. is to spend only 15pts in archmage. You were discussing the runic shield at 50% which takes 20pts in archmage which removes the ability to take fulminate since you're left with only 46pts in pyro. Not only that but you miss out on the 15% bonus to player damage from the archmage. and then 2.4% from it.

    so you just nerfed 17.4% of your damage to save your self 50% of ability damage... (btw that's ability damage, so if it's a melee, he has to hit 5 GCDs, that's great, but it really is but a bandaid on things)

    If you want to talk about survivability, you want to instead look only at the archmage rank 2 steelweave (reduce by a blanket 10%) and then toss in elementalist for another 10%, and this works at all times without consuming anything... But again this is nothing related to the pyro soul as every soul can do it...

    Which was part of the problem with your soul assesments. And all of these things don't address the issue of the special squishyness pyro's have.

    Explaining why your reasoning is flawed is only less rude than letting is be spread.

    How is it that archon dps is fine in pve and pyro's isn't, but in pvp pyro's are fine?

    I know that you have to sacrifice damage talents for PvP talents,
    Actually they don't, that's only if they go the defense route, which isn't what being a pyro is about for most really (and flavor doesn't really seem their style)

    There are two sides to the archmage tree, and the one a pyro salivates at (as does any dps) is the side that increases the damage to players.

    GoS, of course fire shield, should of added that too but didn't, are two talents that are great for Pyro survivability,
    You miss the issue, and it's one I've pointed out before. Survivability ain't the point. It's a class whose very abilities reduce their survivability!

    It's that they still aren't the best DPS or Burst period for this sacrifice. That's the fix people are clamouring for. This whole glass cannon thing people mention, they want the cannon and the glass. They and I have no expectation to really live through many fights. GoS is huge because it makes us less fragile, but the problem is the damage.

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    Plane Walker Lyria's Avatar
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    I think one of the things they could do that would help out as far as survivability goes is to take the knockback skills off global cooldown. It would be relatively simple to do, and would actually help out a great deal, since you wouldn't have that 1.5 second gap between when you knock them back and you can actually DO something again. As it is, you knock them away and they're back into melee before you can get another spell off because of the global cooldown.

    Another option is to get rid of the casting time for a lot/all of the mage CC. Mages are pretty much the only class that has to deal with CC spells that have a casting time. Everybody else's (even clerics, I believe) is instant.

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    there's alot of mage abilities that are instant just about for cc, but the GCD of 1.5 sec hurts (I believe others like rogues/war are on 1 sec?) Not sure on this situation.

    Some reactive spells that knock back (set up in advance) also fit nicely, like the stormcaller shield that rebuffs them 15ft. (they still get their hit in though)

    yeah the dominators need a little love in the time department, but not much.

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