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Thread: What one thing would you change to make cleric dps more competitive?

  1. #16
    Shield of Telara Skiye's Avatar
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    1 minute RC would go a long way to making inquisitor competitive. But i'd prefer a change that would allow more specs to be competitive.
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  2. #17
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skiye View Post
    1 minute RC would go a long way to making inquisitor competitive. But i'd prefer a change that would allow more specs to be competitive.
    that was my thought with my original idea, give a mastery that boost nearly specs either through a big burst, or a smaller sustained buff like adding 20% dmg for 20 sec to punishing strike, or for 10 seconds punishing strike adds an additional 20% dmg as ethereal dmg can jump upto 3 additional targets... most cleric specs are critically lacking in cleave this would go a long way towards adding that dynamic dps and sustained dps clerics seem to lack, and as a percentage based boost would infinitely scale

  3. #18
    Shadowlander Dbatzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skiye View Post
    1 minute RC would go a long way to making inquisitor competitive.
    In addition to this, making Soul Drain or Circle of Oblivion spread all active DoTs on target to 3 or 4 additional enemies would be the most approachable changes the developer(s) can make for Inquisitor, I would hope. This is also in addition to the similar suggestions made by Crysaris and Shas for Inquisitor.
    Last edited by Dbatzz; 07-10-2019 at 02:18 AM. Reason: Edited Free Cleave
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  4. #19
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    It's only my opinion , but a spec with free cleave without loosing any ST dps shouldn't be on the game. Either do cleave or ST dps but not both or with at max 75% of the ST dps of a pure ST spec.
    Mage and firestorm everywhere , same for rogue and HFB, it's a bad design for a class.

  5. #20
    Shadowlander Dbatzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokhmah View Post
    It's only my opinion , but a spec with free cleave without loosing any ST dps shouldn't be on the game. Either do cleave or ST dps but not both or with at max 75% of the ST dps of a pure ST spec.
    Mage and firestorm everywhere , same for rogue and HFB, it's a bad design for a class.
    Even with warriors Fork for Stonespear and Rift Spear, big free cleave. But at that point, its a question of reducing other classes power or buffing one classes power right?
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dbatzz View Post
    Even with warriors Fork for Stonespear and Rift Spear, big free cleave. But at that point, its a question of reducing other classes power or buffing one classes power right?
    It depends on class , but some need to get less power others more power , to balance everything ,it's not the easiest thing to do. But i agree, on that point it's a question of reducing or buffing classes power.

    For me , it's one of the top priority to do for gamigo , a new class balance to put everyone on the same dps if possible. There will always be 1 or 2 class a bit higher, but if us player can help them doing it , it will be easier for them and be maybe more equal among all class and specs.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokhmah View Post
    It depends on class , but some need to get less power others more power , to balance everything ,it's not the easiest thing to do. But i agree, on that point it's a question of reducing or buffing classes power.

    For me , it's one of the top priority to do for gamigo , a new class balance to put everyone on the same dps if possible. There will always be 1 or 2 class a bit higher, but if us player can help them doing it , it will be easier for them and be maybe more equal among all class and specs.
    at this point i think true balance is impossible what makes this game so fun is how open the specs and abilities are the real issue is each class not having a true niche, and by not every class i mean cleric I love my cleric, i play my cleric it is my main, but it is completely obvious it is behind in every role even the ones it is amazing at.

    primalist tanks are pulling 550k aoe healing while main tanking, warriors are doing 1m st dps while OT'ing rogue and mage are doing similar in healing or dps in OT roles. My bos group has a 3rd alt sh*t geared mage pulling 700k effective healing on a 1 button spec. Yes my cleric can perform all these roles healing, tank, dps but not 2 of them at the same time and not the better part of a 1m effective healing period, I can't do 4m+ sustained aoe dps like a rogue. All of these are examples of classes creating must have niches.

    In pvp it is worse with primalist healers doing 2-3 times the healing of other classes, and warriors skipping around 2-shotting everything while their pocket healer follows them around making them immune to death, and killing anything that dares go for their healer again creating a niche.

    can anyone name one clearly superior to all else role a cleric performs? And I don't mean our support buffs are slightly better than rogue, Bara just solo tanked az and it still would have been a net gain for a primalist and a mage swap tanking with 8 non cleric dpsers while the tanks healed and provided buffs far bigger than the party buffs that a cleric can.

    To make the classes equal you would have to make them all largely carbon copies, they need to remove roles or at least hybridization from classes to encourage better class dynamics.

    There needs to be a built in reason to want to bring 2-3 of every class and that doesn't exist because every raid could run 10 of the same class and complete any content, coupled with the fact the classes are not balanced and you end up with winners and losers.

    I am not joining the no one should play cleric bandwagon i happen to enjoy playing cleric, but if we were being honest about where it stands why would anyone else want to bring us? we need 2-3 of the following roles

    a 1.7m st melee dps spec
    a 1.5m st ranged dps spec
    a 700k hps raid heal spec
    a 4m dps aoe spec
    a tank spec that can solo raid heal
    a tank spec that can pull 1m st dps
    a tank spec that buffs like a chon

    just to get back on equal footing with the other classes

  8. #23
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    i agree with you , that's why i said they should let player help them with class balance.

    Also our cleric is running a tank spec that do 250 to 300k hps as 2nd healer, 450k dps , bringing the support buff from oracel as well as the 5% cost reduce for rogues dds and the 5% magical debuff from defiler , no other class can do all those specific buff in the same spec. Same for Bara spec , only mage can do 2 tank at once with the necro pet (maybe rogue with ranger ? or cleric with druid ?) , that's some new things that work , we saw the vids , and it's cool to play differently here and there.

    To come back on the main topic here , one thing i could see to make cleric dps more competitive is to change Legendary Rune of Impending Doom to :

    Damage
    7.5% Mana
    Instant
    Cooldown: 20 seconds
    Deals XXX to XXX Fire damage after 8s. Leave a dot that deal 75% of the damage dealt by Rune of Impending Doom on the target for 12s. Each tick have a chance (25% ?) to reduced the cast time of your next Rune of Smithing by 3.5sec and make it not consume stacks of Smithing force. Rune of Impending Doom deals 60% additional damage for each Runestrike or Rune of Castigation that hits the target while Rune of Impending Doom is active. Rune of Impending Doom deals its damage early if cleansed. Any damage you deal while Rune of Impending Doom is on the target causes you to gain a stack of Smiting Force. Applies Runelord's Inscription to you on cast.

    I kinda like the playstyle of Runeshaper , it's not the easiest spec but not the more complicated one either. Could be cool to play it again while doing decent dps.

  9. #24
    Shield of Telara Skiye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokhmah View Post
    i agree with you , that's why i said they should let player help them with class balance.

    Also our cleric is running a tank spec that do 250 to 300k hps as 2nd healer, 450k dps , bringing the support buff from oracel as well as the 5% cost reduce for rogues dds and the 5% magical debuff from defiler , no other class can do all those specific buff in the same spec. Same for Bara spec , only mage can do 2 tank at once with the necro pet (maybe rogue with ranger ? or cleric with druid ?) , that's some new things that work , we saw the vids , and it's cool to play differently here and there.

    To come back on the main topic here , one thing i could see to make cleric dps more competitive is to change Legendary Rune of Impending Doom to :

    Damage
    7.5% Mana
    Instant
    Cooldown: 20 seconds
    Deals XXX to XXX Fire damage after 8s. Leave a dot that deal 75% of the damage dealt by Rune of Impending Doom on the target for 12s. Each tick have a chance (25% ?) to reduced the cast time of your next Rune of Smithing by 3.5sec and make it not consume stacks of Smithing force. Rune of Impending Doom deals 60% additional damage for each Runestrike or Rune of Castigation that hits the target while Rune of Impending Doom is active. Rune of Impending Doom deals its damage early if cleansed. Any damage you deal while Rune of Impending Doom is on the target causes you to gain a stack of Smiting Force. Applies Runelord's Inscription to you on cast.

    I kinda like the playstyle of Runeshaper , it's not the easiest spec but not the more complicated one either. Could be cool to play it again while doing decent dps.
    We tried the pig pet last monday, but unfortunately it can't grab agro off a tank unfortunately. Even with divert rage. I also did some initial checking on the druid tank pet. I envisioned using my Druidicar 2.0 spec, see my tank guide for details, with the tank pet with the hopes i could get a 900k+ dps solo tank spec for Azranel.

    I speced out the pet's damage and put points into the full GCD reduction talents to make it as effective as possible. Despite having 2 taunts it doesn't hold agro well at all. Every hammer of duty ripped threat right back onto me.

    The pet's HP is also pretty low, 350k range, unless you're wearing full tank gear. (Which pushes it into the 400k range) I think druid pets simply didn't get any scaling adjustments once SFP hit. They all fall well short of other pet souls as far as effectiveness. Plus petcast macros still don't work with druid pets...it's been years now...


    a 1.7m st melee dps spec
    a 1.5m st ranged dps spec
    a 700k hps raid heal spec
    a 4m dps aoe spec
    a tank spec that can solo raid heal
    a tank spec that can pull 1m st dps
    a tank spec that buffs like a chon
    1. Only rogues and primalists can reach this.
    2. Mages share this issue too
    3. This level of HPS is pretty much limited to chloros. TBH anything above 400k, which clerics can do is overkill.
    4. Clerics have 2 options, justicar dps hybrid or Shaman. Never seen a typhoon or stormcaller reach this but AoE specific builds are mostly useless anyway.
    5. Cleric tanks do have options here. Some with support buffs too.
    6. Already pulled off 900k. Cleric options are way more tankey here too. I'm hesitant to call a Bofo tank an actual tank. It's pretty much just a dps with a taunt. Threat is very iffy.
    7. Only chons can buff like a chon, but for oracle/bard defensive buffs clerics have lots of options here.

    That said I feel like with the complexity of play and poor target switching, Defiler, Inquisitor, Druid, and Runeshaper should do a hell of a lot more dps than they currently do. Cabalist also feels like the designer had some cool ideas but then had a brain fart and never finished whatever they had planned.
    Last edited by Skiye; 06-13-2019 at 05:46 AM.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skiye View Post
    We tried the pig pet last monday, but unfortunately it can't grab agro off a tank unfortunately. Even with divert rage. I also did some initial checking on the druid tank pet. I envisioned using my Druidicar 2.0 spec, see my tank guide for details, with the tank pet with the hopes i could get a 900k+ dps solo tank spec for Azranel.

    I speced out the pet's damage and put points into the full GCD reduction talents to make it as effective as possible. Despite having 2 taunts it doesn't hold agro well at all. Every hammer of duty ripped threat right back onto me.

    The pet's HP is also pretty low, 350k range, unless you're wearing full tank gear. (Which pushes it into the 400k range) I think druid pets simply didn't get any scaling adjustments once SFP hit. They all fall well short of other pet souls as far as effectiveness. Plus petcast macros still don't work with druid pets...it's been years now...




    1. Only rogues and primalists can reach this.
    2. Mages share this issue too
    3. This level of HPS is pretty much limited to chloros. TBH anything above 400k, which clerics can do is overkill.
    4. Clerics have 2 options, justicar dps hybrid or Shaman. Never seen a typhoon or stormcaller reach this but AoE specific builds are mostly useless anyway.
    5. Cleric tanks do have options here. Some with support buffs too.
    6. Already pulled off 900k. Cleric options are way more tankey here too. I'm hesitant to call a Bofo tank an actual tank. It's pretty much just a dps with a taunt. Threat is very iffy.
    7. Only chons can buff like a chon, but for oracle/bard defensive buffs clerics have lots of options here.
    Ah so sad for the druid and ranger pet , they aren't like necro one with 600k hp ... I guess necro is better for pet tanking then :/

    1. rogue is also 20m range with this spec , so it's more a mid range spec than a full melee. Prima is 100% melee with it i agree.
    2. I'm 99% sure we can see a mage doing 1.5m range dps with 58ele spec. I already saw some of the good mage on EU puling 1.7m dps on a 3 min fight on irotp , should hit 1.5 on azranel i think with better gear.
    3. Prima can do it too without too much effort , chloro is way higher than that of course and warrior can easily pull this too , but for some "normal" raid with 2 real tank , 400k is what you only need with 2 player than can heal ( 1 healer and 1 bard/oracle)
    4. typhoon can hold more than 4m i think with the real rotation and not a 1 button typhoon like i prefer playing for BOS trash. Berserker as prima can hit this too i tihnk , never bother with it. Cleric have as you said justiciar or shaman for this kind of aoe dps.
    5. As i said , the oracel/defiler/justiciar tank is really nice for raid healing and support buff and i tihnk only chloro tank can solo raid heal bosses.
    6. As skiye said , 900k is doable , maybe even more. Prima warrior and rogue are higher than that , but you don't really need this kind of dps for a tank currently. I prefer a tank that survive against one that can get one shot on a mistake.
    7. Same as skiye , only chon can do chon stuff so cleric won't be able to do the same.

  11. #26
    Telaran Ikamuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikamuni View Post
    Changed my mind:

    Fervent Strike
    Range: 35m
    Legendary Version
    "Non druid All abilities deal 15% 50% more damage for 300 seconds. Bonus doubled on elemental damage."
    This one only changes the range, bonus damage, and duration values so it should be ez pz to change.

    For example
    An inquisitor that does 1.2m DPS with the current fervent strike will prolly do about 1m DPS without it.
    So with my proposed change the DPS should boost from 1m to about 2m. This should be acceptable since inquisitor is virtually a no-cleave "turret" spec that has so many buttons to push to play effectively (unlike other 2 or 3 button DPS specs from other classes that do more with comparable equipment lel)
    Last edited by Ikamuni; 06-16-2019 at 04:07 AM.
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  12. #27
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    Dodge should apply to all characters main stat not only dex based classes.
    Clerics also should be able to change eternal to duel wield and allow runes that apply to off hand to be placed on their totems as well.
    Clerics and other classes who can't cleave should have uncontested ST vs. classes that can cleave and ST DPS.
    Clerics should have face roll specs with easy ogcd management that can be macro'ed on their buffs. All of their debuffs/Buffs should have the same 30 sec. CD like other classes have and they should be self buffs on the player not the target.
    Cleric mastery should also be AE channels.
    Clerics should have specs that allow for easy on-demand burst with little build up from range. Not having to melee to appy debuffs in their best specs like other class.
    Clerics should also get a good amount of usable utility that can add to surivivability in PvP.
    Things similar to side steps, Diffuse, teleport or back leaps without destroying your dps to access them , crossfire channels without requiring targets, Twilight Transcendence, slip away etc.
    Clerics should have all its dealing damage to self mechanics removed since it just breaks those souls in PvP.
    They should also have 1 sec GCD access to all their souls or have tons of ogcd/proc abilities to make those 1.5 sec gcd worth playing especially healing specs which are much less reactive than 1 sec gcd specs.
    Clerics should have movable channels without having to lose a ton of dps to gain it.
    Clerics shouldn't have to manage mana or depend on other classes in the handful of specs like druid, cabalist runeshaper, puri, warden etc. Cleric mana regen should be adjusted to the point it behaves like a rogue energy regen function so there is just as little downtime as they have.
    Cleric support option should be treated either as full dps and be competitive to the point you can bring several of them since it is the best option they have and you only use one slot in a raid for them vs. 5 to 7 for dps.
    Clerics should have synergy as well to bring 1 million + dps with their tank spec as well.

    They can do all this or you can just reroll rogue since this is how badly unbalanced cleric is. Any single change that would need to be made to cleric would have to be in the mastery and effect all their souls since most of their souls are horrible in some way.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 06-18-2019 at 10:03 PM.

  13. #28
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    I wasn't trying to start a whole another topic about this I was more pointing out these create niches and niches mean a reason to bring, but my INJT personality is kicking in...

    1. Only rogues and primalists can reach this.
    Exactly which is why they are desired in raids and shaman are not.

    2. Mages share this issue too
    But they still do more than us, and a singular class is similarly gimped is not exactly a
    rousing endorsement.

    3. This level of HPS is pretty much limited to chloros. TBH anything above 400k, which clerics can do is overkill.
    I agree we can do 400k which is half what the best class can do and still behind all the
    other classes and we are not doing it in crappy gear and not with one button.

    4. Clerics have 2 options, justicar dps hybrid or Shaman. Never seen a typhoon or stormcaller reach this but AoE specific builds are mostly useless anyway.
    Shaman is not hitting 4m aoe, maybe HOF justicar spam if
    not tanking and in dps gear, and in the context of BOS both of these specs are largely crippled in phase 2
    on Is

    5. Cleric tanks do have options here. Some with support buffs too.
    No cleric tank spec is rocking 550k hps raid heal like a titan/farseer or mage chloro
    OT. No cleric dedicated heal spec is pulling 550k, much less while main tanking

    6. Already pulled off 900k. Cleric options are way more tankey here too. I'm hesitant to call a Bofo tank an actual tank. It's pretty much just a dps with a taunt. Threat is very iffy.
    I will concede the point, but again we are doing it with a crapload more gear, not
    using a lol 1-button spec and 900k is still less than the warrior using said lol 1-
    button spec

    7. Only chons can buff like a chon, but for oracle/bard defensive buffs clerics have lots of options here
    That is exactly my point though only a mage can buff like a mage.


    3 out of 7 niches you explain away as only x class can do 1 of them you say its cool because another class has the same issue the remaining 3 you point out we can do, while dismissing the fact other classes are still doing it as good or better.

    Yes the raid healer only needs to do 400k so when they are doing double that and you have an oh sh!t moment which one do you think the average raid is going to want?

    when you don't have a raid filled with people completely geared out on their 5th alt, all these we do 70-90% of that, doing half as much should be good enough, start to stack up rather quickly to the difference between a 30 minute clear and 2 hours wiping on az.

    pretend you are putting together a pug you need 4 dps do you want 4 primalist/rogues or cleric? We all know damn well given those choices what is going to get picked. That is the power of having a niche vs a second or third or fourth best option.

    your tank is not geared out completely and your raid hasn't mastered the fight is 400k hps good enough when you also have 700k hps sitting on the bench.

    your raid is having an issue getting the adds down in phase 1 on time, as a result your tank is taking too much dmg and your healing cant keep up do you have the cleric go shaman to hit 2-3m aoe dps and 400-500k on phase 2 or a rogue that is going to hit 4m and then settle in for 1.5m on phase 2, after you sit out your cleric healer for a chloro healing as only a chloro can do.

    It is not the fact classes can do things better than cleric, if cleric was the best at everything it too be broken, the issue is it is the worst or near worst option at just about everything, not a single one of those niches i listed did you respond with the cleric is the king of this.

    I 100% agree with you when running it for the lawls cleric is not too far behind to matter, even when going for competitive 1-2 clerics are not a deal breaker, but when you using the qualifier progression too many clerics start to become an issue.

    I can take my ford ranger down to the track put a 5.0 in it with a nice turbo charger and a fully custom power train, and it will be fast damn fast in fact, it doesn't change the fact you put that same setup in a mustang with the same driver and not expect it to be even faster. Go down to your local track and count the number of rangers vs mustangs and you will see the same result as what is happening in rift. a whole lot of mustangs and maybe a few unicorn rangers.

  14. #29
    Plane Walker Shas's Avatar
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    You are mentioning that 400k HPS is a benchmark and everything above is a waste . ?
    The hps game is different to the dps game since it's way more dynamic. Phases of nothing coming in swap with Azranel on 10 stacks, lasers and 2 ppl running. Most deaths come from healers mindlessly spamming some macros and lose people on dynamic mechanics they are not prepared for.

    400kHPs is a strange number since it represents nothing really.
    A Beastmaster can pull 400k active hps on slow ticking constant aoe dmg but fall short on preactive toping/ quick ticks.

    Problem is the distribution. Active heals like Geysir, Vile Spores- or Deliverance spam will always fall short while creating (mostly) pointless ohps.

    Get a solid synnegy. 61(Piercing Beam)Chloro + Bard may still end up in dead people with all these horribly slow ticks and little to no option for a second gear.
    Last edited by Shas; 06-19-2019 at 05:44 PM.

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  15. #30
    Plane Walker Shas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dbatzz View Post
    In addition to this, making the channeled abilities spread all active DoTs on target to 8 additional enemies would be the most approachable changes the developer(s) can make for Inquisitor, I would hope. This is also in addition to the similar suggestions made by Crysaris and Shas for Inquisitor.
    Problem is that this is uncontrolled cleave. Something nobody should ask for ^^

    1b nb already trolled non-exploiting EoA groups.
    With the selfheal from inq inq dots, some reaver-style afk spreading may be an overkill, too uncontrolled in pve and too easy for pvp.
    Scourge ticking extra on life dmg for example would encurage NR and proper BoR maxing
    Life / death inq already contains a primalist left/right approach aswell. Life dmg tripples the tickrate of the next death dot yadda.

    This tripple tick within the first 15 inq points could bring inq, cab and defiler back on the menu already

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