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Thread: Merge Cabalist and Defiler

  1. #1
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    Default Merge Cabalist and Defiler

    I was looking for an AoE build for my cleric, which basically meant Cabalist. However, I found that many of the soul points in Cab are... well, bad, notably sigils and the bugged 61-point ability that stops your automatic Bound Fate. I then looked for a soul with most of its strong points in the early tiers for use in a hybrid spec, and tried Defiler (Miserly Affliction only requires 24 points). It's pretty okay, but I made some improvements to it after reading the existing guide for that spec that would've saved me some time if I had found it earlier.

    The key here is that there are several lackluster abilities in Cabalist, and too many boring stat boosts in Defiler. Also, Defiler has really slow buildup when Bond of Pain isn't available (applies all Rage DoTs, 1min CD). There are also a few small things, like Rage/Greed stacks being RNG, not much to do while waiting for stacks, and really lackluster filler. Therefore, I think it would be more fun to merge these into a single spec with more reliability, more on-demand damage, and a more interesting rotation.
    • Rage and Greed DoTs now have a 100% chance to grant a stack. Maximum 10 stacks.
    • No more Focused, Condensed, or Unbounded Obliteration. Everything behaves as if you had Condensed Obliteration active.

    Tier 1
    Stroke of Genius: unchanged
    Secrets of the Deep: unchanged

    Tier 2
    Miserly Form: Now also heals for 0.5 / 1.0 / 1.5 / 2.0 / 2.5% of your max health for every stack of Greed removed with Aggressive Avarice, doubled when you are under 60% health.
    Obsessive: unchanged
    Siphon Vitality: unchanged

    Tier 3
    Husk of Indifference: unchanged
    Explosive Energies: unchanged
    Dark Passage: unchanged
    Rampant Greed: Old effect removed. Now grants a 50 / 100% chance for each tick of a Greed spell to apply a known Rage DoT not already on the target.

    Tier 4
    Cardial Conversion: unchanged, still requires Husk of Indifference
    Affinity for Death: unchanged
    Sigil of Spirits: unchanged

    Tier 5
    Scarred Heart: unchanged
    Summon Beacon of Despair: unchanged
    Tenebrious Distortion: unchanged

    Tier 6
    Shackles of Fate: unchanged
    Grim Fate: unchanged
    Furious Might: unchanged

    Tier 7
    New ability combining Miser's Dedication and Swift Disintegration: increases spell power on Death spells by 5 / 10%.
    Ravaging Darkness: unchanged
    Death's Dominion: unchanged

    Tier 8
    Dark Impulses: unchanged
    Bond of Pain: old effects removed. Now a toggled ability that reduces your damage dealt by 50% and heals you and your Beacon of Despair for 5% of your max health every second. Requires a nearby Beacon of Despair, 30m range. Requires a point in Summon: Beacon of Despair.

    Tier 9
    Unleash Oblivion: unchanged, except please fix the bug where you stop autofiring Bound Fate at rooted enemies

    1: Bound Fate
    1: Greed's Corruption
    2: Aggressive Avarice - damage increase reduced from 2.5% to 1.5% per stack due to 10 stacks. No longer has a legendary version (effect is in Miserly Form now).
    4: Tyranny of Death
    8: Rage Extraction - legendary version's effects on healing and damage taken reduced from 1% to 0.5% per stack due to 10 stacks.
    12: Curse of Solitude
    16: Marrow Harvest
    20: Shadow Breach
    24: Esoteric Estimations
    24: Dark Water - new additional effect. If the target is at max stacks, the current cast deals its DoT damage immediately.
    28: Disintegration
    32: Sigil of Binding
    36: Condensed Obliteration - old effect is now default behavior on all relevant spells. The new effect is the old legendary effect, autofiring Bound Fate at nearby enemies in combat. No legendary point.
    36: Furious Infestation
    40: Miserly Affliction
    44: Sigil of Ruin
    48: Well of Souls
    51: Explosive Rage
    54: Call of Rage
    58: Unholy Nexus
    61: Unstable Transformation

  2. #2
    Shield of Telara Skiye's Avatar
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    Both Cabalist and Defiler both suffer from the same issues, extremely lackluster 41 and 61 point legendary abilities. While they may be termed "legendary" they definitely don't fit the description.

    I'm not sure that merging them is quite the answer but I have had some suggestions a while back that would probably help a lot. For now i'll just do defiler.

    For Defiler

    Make Legendary Pain Transmission a ground targeted AoE ability like Legendary Fire Storm and keep the cooldown. This would give defiler some much needed cleave dps and bring it in line with mages.

    Defiler severely lacks spell power bonuses so a simple fix would be to adjust Miserly Form to increase spell power by 2/4/6/8/10%.

    Beacon of Despair is mostly useless now that the soul doesn't heal. I'd change it to something similar to the Vulcanist Beacon of the Drake and remove all of it's health and impacts on the defiler's health. It still looks badass so I don't want to do away with it completely.

    Call of Rage is more trouble than it's worth to keep going. It doesn't time well with the other rage DoT's having such a short duration. Just make this a passive 30% resistance bypass for defiler abilities.

    My final two are 1. Fix Greed's Call to actually function as the ability says. It often crits players for 60 + % of your health instead of the tooltip's 15%.
    2. Unstable transformation is not good enough to be a 61 point legendary. Oracle hybrids do better overall dps because this ability is so insufficient.

    I'd remove the damage reduction and make it self only. It doesn't need to act like a save the tank cooldown anymore since Defiler isn't a healing soul.

    Passively reduce the global cooldown for death abilities by .5. Defiler has too many dots and abilities to manage to stay a 1.5 sec soul.
    Extend the duration out to 20 seconds for the 20% damage boost.
    Remove the stack reduction effects so the text reads like...

    Increases damage dealt by 20%
    Explosive Rage has no cooldown while this effect is active.
    Passively reduces global cooldown by .5 seconds for death abilities.
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  3. #3
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    That sounds good.

    For cabalist the first change I think would be to have the Condensed obliteration legendary apply two buffs, the second which is applied to all obliterations and gives the auto fire bound fates. This would significantly boost viability for 8 target fights.

    The 61 point also needs a bit more punch - perhaps adding a debuff of its own, or maybe causing all active cabalist dots to trigger all their remaining damage in one big burst.
    Last edited by Thunrar; 03-13-2019 at 11:04 AM.
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  4. #4
    Rift Master
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    Defiler should be a one sec. gcd spec naturally at low point spread. But it doesn't matter at all what they do for this class in terms of balancing dps. They would need to make it the top DPS or best support in the game to revive it. Right now balancing the dead class will not make it attractive to bring to raids.

    Defi/Oracle, for instance, can be the most attractive spec but it would literally need to be buffed to 1.2ish-1.3 million dps average.. Bard hybrid tanks are too good to pass up because they bring healing, support buffs and can tank all in one spec. Average dps of Defi/Oracle is too low that replacing it can be a net gain for the raid.

    Getting them a well balanced DPS spec with cleave will make them feel less useless but it will not make them feel necessary. For instance, Mage has archon which although they don't perform well on average with the top 3 in dps they are wanted for that role. Mage also has fantastic dps as an AE healer and some amazing tank synergy but in general archon is preventing that class from becoming a dead class like cleric the most. The population will slowly migrate to rogues and warriors and a small number of the other classes. Mostly alts of players will have the mage and cleric class with mains of rogues and warriors with primalist sprinkled in. Only reason primalist is going to be sprinkled in is that its a payed for class. Eventually, you will have a hand full of players with alts and a bunch of bots to make the game feel more populated.. like the random nonsense in starting level chat.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 03-13-2019 at 11:29 AM.

  5. #5
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post
    Defi/Oracle, for instance, can be the most attractive spec but it would literally need to be buffed to 1.2ish-1.3 million dps average.. Bard hybrid tanks are too good to pass up because they bring healing, support buffs and can tank all in one spec. Average dps of Defi/Oracle is too low that replacing it can be a net gain for the raid.
    .
    Basically I would say that both variants are quite close to each other.

    At first I also thought that a tank/bard/healer is the ultimate spec because he can fill 3 roles at the same time. I did some calculations and it seems that a defihealer + tank/dd or defileroracel + chlorochon + tank/DD setup is still a bit better. Defileroracel also has the advantage that the cost reduction significantly increases the damage from the rogues (Bofors) which I haven't included in my calculations yet. Hokhmah (Primalist Tank/DD) makes the 1.1 m DPS on the test dummy, in a raid a well played primalist tank/dd should do even better.

  6. #6
    Champion Shas's Avatar
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    1) Comes down to that 'new' defiler. Nobody really had a problem with the old Defiler besides the links being too strong and too much of a 'must have' (quite compareable to chanter dps)

    2) Old Defiler was a littlebit too much of a onebutton 'once a minute' playstyle which they now turned around like a bad cardriver steering when facing a deer on the road (and ending up in a tree)

    3) Cabbalist ever was more of a Luxury spec which a 20man raid (pve pvp) could affort to bring and bored players could affort to master. Guess what's missing.

    4) The core theme of both specs are quite apart with Cabbalist being dark enchanted water and forbidden libraries (like HK) and defiler more of a magic Frankenstein doc who literaly made other players his pets.

    5) While -for example- Riftblade gets legendary Points for 65% more finisher damage and passive 30% overall dmg, Defiler mainly gets some defensive % and one ability to spam, Cabbalist cc duration aaand that's pretty much it (Condensed Abliteration is fun and stuff but it's still the 3 target buff (like a Reaver) while you still better use Unbound Obliteration, which makes it quite neglectable. The gameplay for hitting 8+ targets pretty much didn't change from lvl 60.

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamul View Post
    Basically I would say that both variants are quite close to each other.

    At first I also thought that a tank/bard/healer is the ultimate spec because he can fill 3 roles at the same time. I did some calculations and it seems that a defihealer + tank/dd or defileroracel + chlorochon + tank/DD setup is still a bit better. Defileroracel also has the advantage that the cost reduction significantly increases the damage from the rogues (Bofors) which I haven't included in my calculations yet. Hokhmah (Primalist Tank/DD) makes the 1.1 m DPS on the test dummy, in a raid a well played primalist tank/dd should do even better.
    Defihealer can't even touch chloro when it comes to healing. Take a look at the struggle of solo healer on Azranel. Defihealer is much worse. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/391332974
    My point is in most those graphs you purely have defihealer as the solo healer. Sure it can solo heal some content once everyone else can face roll the content but you are asking for 9 other players to be perfect with mechanics so the healing is barely necessary and there is no need to bring a rez or ST healer or solo tank healer. In this case you should also include chlorochon as a solo healer and redo a 10 man scenario based on maximizing dps with a single chlorochon.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 03-13-2019 at 02:03 PM.

  8. #8
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post
    In this case you should also include chlorochon as a solo healer and redo a 10 man scenario based on maximizing dps with a single chlorochon.
    Chlorochon + Defioracle is behind Archon + Defihealer without consideration of cost reduction. With enough Bofors in the raid Chlorochon + Defioracle is a bit better due to the cost reduction from which the Bofors profit the most.

    I just wanted to make it clear that a tank/bard/healer is not always better, in the end it always depends on the whole raidsetup.

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  9. #9
    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    I've also been thinking about this for awhile.

    For Azranel starting off with Tank configuration.
    Two Primalist or Rogue Tank/DD. Then build raid around this.
    For Commander:
    Bard/Tank and ST heal/Tank hybrid possibly Phys/Tank, chanter/tank etc?
    For Titan:
    Solo Bard/Tank healer may be possible if they dodge ghost but any tank/healer should be suffice from any class.

    What do you think?
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 03-13-2019 at 02:45 PM.

  10. #10
    Champion Shas's Avatar
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    Bard and Archont only effects the people in his natural aura since support buffs/ auras do not benefit from ther ange buff, mostly 0-2 people get it @ sfety dance. Besides the aoe debuffs on trash, titanx is the encounter with the littelest gain on soft sup. 1-2 Riftblades can heal titanx.

    61NB tank with a torrent might be enough to get ranged aoe aggro quick (when using hbf+torrent to pull) having 2 stand tall! on himself. So you're running 1archont 9 dd's. When having a dodgy setup like this you might want to take dodging and jumping as absolute basics.

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  11. #11
    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    Bard and Archont only effects the people in his natural aura since support buffs/ auras do not benefit from ther ange buff, mostly 0-2 people get it @ sfety dance. Besides the aoe debuffs on trash, titanx is the encounter with the littelest gain on soft sup. 1-2 Riftblades can heal titanx.

    61NB tank with a torrent might be enough to get ranged aoe aggro quick (when using hbf+torrent to pull) having 2 stand tall! on himself. So you're running 1archont 9 dd's. When having a dodgy setup like this you might want to take dodging and jumping as absolute basics.
    That is too much work and risk in my opinion but I see what you are saying. I was just thinking of just a basic 5-6 rogue raid with at least 1 mage, 1 warrior, 1 primalist and 1 cleric.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 03-13-2019 at 03:39 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    I've also been thinking about this for awhile.

    For Azranel starting off with Tank configuration.
    Two Primalist or Rogue Tank/DD. Then build raid around this.
    For Commander:
    Bard/Tank and ST heal/Tank hybrid possibly Phys/Tank, chanter/tank etc?
    For Titan:
    Solo Bard/Tank healer may be possible if they dodge ghost but any tank/healer should be suffice from any class.

    What do you think?
    You can't bring 2 hybrid tank on isiel. Purple aoe from vindicator tick at 1million damage per tick every second on a non 61 point tank (31 for prima) so you'll need a least 1 main tank for the vindicator and mine tanking. It just rekt me last time as Mystic/tank.
    For the other setup it should be fine with 2 hybrid tank since their is no purple aoe anymore.

  13. #13
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    Unless they buff defiler/oracle to mystic pseudo support levels of dps (1.2million DPS+) cleric will CONTINUE to be the most nonessential class in the game... Having competitive ST DPS with some cleave would be awesome but the sure fire way to please the other classes and make the cleric essential is to do this because Defi/oracle actually brings 5% damage which the primalist complain is a dps loss if they provide it, and the rogue gains massive dps with the energy reduction talent from the oracle/defiler. This game is all about making the rogue and primalist class happy. Some rogues will always be unhappy because bard is not used other than support healing but rogue is too good at everything and veterans are waiting for Gamigo to realize how bad it is when rogues are spoiled this much...

    They will QQ and quit just like when they nerfed their OP NB/SAB. The rogue population more or less were dumb down by that spec and when they had to adjust for a more normal playing experience instead of a couple buttons and top dps every fight it was too hard for the dumb down population to adjust. Trion left rogue overpowered for too long that the meta and ideology of those players accept a dumb down class to be top dps with virtually little effort needed. Close to 2 years!~Keyens really ruined it with all the mostly one button specs that can top dps from range and have extraordinary cleave as well. If Gamigo continues to keep rogue the best in most roles or ideal in most raid slots they will expect that forever and once they realize how the other populations of classes are shrinking to keep rogue happy then the rogue will complain the game is empty and no one to play with.. Yes, all because Trion and/or Gamigo choose to keep a couple classes OP. It is one of the biggest reasons PoA was a failure. At least when you have 20 man raids you want to bring bodies no matter who plays what but with only 10 man raids you want the most essential players and classes to be competitive with other guilds and go for achievements.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 03-18-2019 at 11:07 PM.

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